Better Cobblestone rider: Boonen or Cancellara?

[The Hitch]

Cancellara was there for 6 of the 7 Monuments Boonen won. Boonen only beat Cancellara in the sprint in one of those. 5 other times Cancellara got dropped.

Those.5 times being 2005 2005 2006 2008 and 2009.

Yep you have titaly convinced me that today boonen is the bettee cobbled.rider.

 

[El Pistolero]

I dont get it.



Look up 2010 roubaix. Cancellara did the same.trick only against far better opposotion and more.convincingly.

Look up 2010 Roubaix. No one chased after Cancellara except Boonen. What opposition are you talking about except him? Has anyone denied here in this thread that Cancellara was stronger in 2010?

 

[El Pistolero]

Those.5 times being 2005 2005 2006 2008 and 2009.

Yep you have titaly convinced me that today boonen is the bettee cobbled.rider.

You have no problem using 2010 as evidence however. Again, why the double standards?

If you want to play the injury card in 2012 for Cancellara then you have to do the same for Boonen in 2011.

 

[Wallace]

Who's going to be better in 2013? Sagan.

 

[El Pistolero]

Who's going to be better in 2013? Sagan.

We don't know whether or not he'll ride in Roubaix. Nor if he's any good in that classic by the way. If he rides Roubaix I can't see him ride good at the Ardennes classics. He has to make a choice. Though this topic isn't about who's the best cobbled rider, but about who's better between Cancellara and Boonen.

 

[serfla]

Boonen, of course.
He's the best of all times on the cobbles.
No one has ever won that much RVVs and P-Rs.

 

[theyoungest]

Cancellara is better on the cobbles. I don't think anyone doubts who would win in a ITT between the two to Roubaix. However, Boonen is probably better in the cobbled classics in general, but that's because of his sprint, not due to his abilities on the cobbles per se.

This I agree with. Compare Boonen's win in Flanders this year to Cancellara's in 2010. Just so much more convincing. Boonen was struggling to hold the wheel of Pozzato and Ballan uphill.

 

[Wallace]

We don't know whether or not he'll ride in Roubaix. Nor if he's any good in that classic by the way. If he rides Roubaix I can't see him ride good at the Ardennes classics. He has to make a choice. Though this topic isn't about who's the best cobbled rider, but about who's better between Cancellara and Boonen.

I know, but I think it's a kind of silly discussion because Boonen has won so many more of the cobbled races than Cancellara, and that's really all that counts. Fabian is certainly stronger, but he doesn't have the team so his strength is neutralized. In 2010 Boonen thought he could go head-to-head with FC and match him pull for pull, and realized he couldn't. He won't make that mistake again. As everyone saw at last year's Flanders, Boonen knows that all he has to do is arrive at the end of the race at the front and it doesn't matter if the guys he's with are stronger--he can out-sprint them. With Chavanel, Terpstra etc. on his team, he doesn't have to be the strongest (unlike Cancellara)--he just has to be smart. Team work also won him last year's P-R, where the 2nd strongest guy in the race, Terpstra, was in the chasing group blocking for him and disrupting the rhythm (one of the commentators said it was practically cheating to have a guy doing that kind of work). In other words, if this year Tom and Fabian find themselves alone in front at the end of either race, Tom won't work as much as Fabian and will out-sprint him. And winning is kind of what matters.

What could change all this is if Sagan enters the mix--he's the guy who could be up there with Boonen and Cancellara, and out-sprint Boonen. If Cancellara, Boonen and Sagan enter the Roubaix velodrome together, Sagan's gonna win.

 

[maltiv]

Cancellara was there for 6 of the 7 Monuments Boonen won. Boonen only beat Cancellara in the sprint in one of those. 5 other times Cancellara got dropped or crashed(once).

All completely irrelevant, I'm talking about their abilities right now. Cancellara clearly improved on the cobbles after 2009.

 

[The Hitch]

You have no problem using 2010 as evidence however. Again, why the double standards?
.

I did not use 2010 as evidence. I pointed out to a relatively new cycling fan who may not have seen 2010 that Cancellara was also able to do the 50k solo thing and better. (and to answer the question Hushovd, Pozzato, Boonen Flecha were the opposition. IMO that is a superior oppositon to Turgot and Ballan).

So no there are no double standards. 2010 is also the past. It is a more recent past though than 2005 justlike 2009 Boonen is a more recent past than Cancellara 2006.

 

[El Pistolero]

This I agree with. Compare Boonen's win in Flanders this year to Cancellara's in 2010. Just so much more convincing. Boonen was struggling to hold the wheel of Pozzato and Ballan uphill.

Boonen was having a problem with his shifting gears. Now whether that was an excuse or not I do not know(nor do you), but it does explain why he struggled on that hill.

That's one year only anyway, completely ignoring everything else.

 

[The Hitch]

Though this topic isn't about who's the best cobbled rider, but about who's better between Cancellara and Boonen.

exactly.

Why though then do you keep arguing about who was better between Cancellara and Boonen in 2005?

 

[Jason_Mercier]

Better cobblestone rider: Boonen
Better rider by potential: Cancellara

 

[Altitude]

What has Gilbert to do with this by the way? Please stay on-topic.

You're the one who posted a random picture of Gilbert beating Boonen in a sprint. Hypocrite.

 

[serfla]

Don't tell me snapping a chain and riding over bottles is skillful course cruise.

 

[The Hitch]

. In the mean time, feel free to resort to personal insults. .

This is not the first time you have reffered to me attacking Gilbert as a "personal insult". Lol, that is a totally new level of fanboy.

And i wasnt even "insulting" Gilbert either. I joked that he is ubermench unaffected by injuries.

 

[El Pistolero]

All completely irrelevant, I'm talking about their abilities right now. Cancellara clearly improved on the cobbles after 2009.

Yet he couldn't drop Chavanel or Hushovd anymore in 2011. I think Boonen in top form is just that little bit stronger than Hushovd and Chavanel.

2010 is also irrelevant now then.

 

[The Hitch]

Yet he couldn't drop Chavanel or Hushovd anymore in 2011. I think Boonen in top form is just that little bit stronger than Hushovd and Chavanel.

2010 is also irrelevant now then.

Then why was he dropped twice by Cancellara in that years RVV.

And whatsmore both times he actually tried to hold Cancellaras wheel.

 

[Magnus]

I dont get it.

Boonen is 5 months older than Cancellara. Garzelli is 11 years and 10 months older than Froome.

Comparing riders by who was better in a given year makes (somekind of) sense if they are (approximately) the same age but none at all when they are a decade apart in age.

Who's the better cobbles rider?

When judging who's better it seems natural to look at the past. That's usually what you do when trying to decide stuff. Base it on empirical data from the past (if you wanna be objective). Of course you might dismiss some "data points" if you don't think it's representative, but it seems to me like you only consider "data points" that confirms your believe and dismiss all other.

Right now obviously it's Cancellara as Boonen is hospitalized (and looking through the thread it seems that you're the one who introduced the "right now" premise).

 

[El Pistolero]

You're the one who posted a random picture of Gilbert beating Boonen in a sprint. Hypocrite.

That had nothing to do with Gilbert.

Boonen finishing second in Paris-Tours after attacking on the hills proves he's more than just cobbles. That he got beaten in a sprint was irrelevant, it was still a nice performance in a non-cobbled race.

Him winning the Belgian Nats in Aiywaille also prove he's more than just cobbles. Ever been to Aiywaille? It's quite hilly.

Not so random was it? Considering it was in response to someone who claimed Boonen was just cobbles.

So no, I'm not being a hypocrite. Merely using arguments to prove a point.

 

[Miburo]

Cancellara was there for 6 of the 7 Monuments Boonen won. Boonen only beat Cancellara in the sprint in one of those. 5 other times Cancellara got dropped or crashed(once).

Ronde van Vlaanderen 2005: Cancellara finishes more than 10 minutes down.
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2006: Cancellara finishes more than a minute down.
Paris-Roubaix 2005: Cancellara finishes almost 4 minutes down.
Paris Roubaix 2009: Cancellara finishes almost 7 minutes down.

And for the semi-classic cobbled race:

E3 Harelbeke 2006: Boonen won in a sprint with two. Cancellara got dropped.
E3 Harelbeke 2007: Boonen won in a sprint with four. Cancellara was there, but got outsprinted.
E3 Harelbeke 2008: breakaway survives, but Boonen is once again the strongest of the favorites. Cancellara got dropped
Dwars door Vlaanderen 2007: Boonen wins the sprint. Cancellara got dropped even from there.

In E3 2008, Canc was clearly the best. Remember taaienberg? You prob thought no one would remember that race lol Canc even tried to drop Boonen but no use and had a teammate up front who btw won.
In E3 2007 Canc almost won the sprint while at that time Boonen was top 3 sprinter. You make it seem Canc became 4th but he was 2nd!!! lol
Can't count PR '09 btw

 

[Altitude]

Still pretty random considering this thread is about cobbles and nothing else. I think you just saw an opportunity to slip your love interest Gilbert into a discussion where he doesn't have any place. Probably wasn't the first time.

 

[El Pistolero]

Then why was he dropped twice by Cancellara in that years RVV.

And whatsmore both times he actually tried to hold Cancellaras wheel.

Cancellara never dropped Chavanel.

If you're talking about Boonen: he got sick during Tirreno-Adriatico and was coming back from a knee injury. Those things tend to undermine your preparation.

 

[Wallace]

Y'know, every year we have this same discussion here, and every year posters seem to think that the only way to really win a classic is to drop all your competition and ride to the line alone, and that when a rider wins by out sprinting his group it's kind of, well, effeminate. A wussy way to win--especially if the guy who wins didn't look like the strongest guy in the race. While I'lll agree that riders who suck wheels to the finish and then sprint are classless (the way Pozzato used to be), a) Boonen doesn't do that, and b) a sprinter is a sprinter--he's got a tool and it's the other guys' job to drop him, so that he can't use it. Boonen sprinting to a win is every bit as much of a win as riding solo to the end. Period. So ultimately all it comes down to is: Boonen, 7 cobbled classics, Cancellara, 3.

 

[Miburo]

Clearing up the issue of 'right now'.

The aim of this thread is 'who do you think is the overall better cobblestone rider' based on their performances until now. So not just who is right now better.

By that logic Wiggins is a better GC rider than AS.