Better Cobblestone rider: Boonen or Cancellara?

[The Hitch]

Evans improved so why is it seen as so obsurd that thomas can improve?

And thomas was leading P-R with 15 km to go last year?

Dude are you for real? Riders who arent already contending for the top races cant improve? Only riders who are actually in with a shot for a monument or gt can experience "improvement" everyone else is doomed to remain at the same level for the rest of their careers?

This is honestly the dumbest thing i ever heard on the forum and that includes stuff pistrollero said?

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

I guess we are going to see in april
who the best collbestone rider is

 

[Netserk]

Dude are you for real? Riders who arent already contending for the top races cant improve? Only riders who are actually in with a shot for a monument or gt can experience "improvement" everyone else is doomed to remain at the same level for the rest of their careers?

This is honestly the dumbest thing i ever heard on the forum and that includes stuff pistrollero said?

I didn't say that, and it isn't my opinion. It is *you* who used Evans as example, and I just showed why he isn't comparable with Thomas. Ten years ago was December 2002 *after* Evans' Giro performance....

 

[Pentacycle]

I guess we are going to see in april
who the best collbestone rider is

Yup. That's why this thread is so useless. Even if you determine who the best cobble rider is, you're still gonna watch next spring who can win the big classics. There aren't many certainties in cycling, a lot can happen in the coming four months.

 

[El Pistolero]

Dude are you for real? Riders who arent already contending for the top races cant improve? Only riders who are actually in with a shot for a monument or gt can experience "improvement" everyone else is doomed to remain at the same level for the rest of their careers?

This is honestly the dumbest thing i ever heard on the forum and that includes stuff pistrollero said?

I ask you again for the final time. Where has Thomas shown any potential at Roubaix that I need to include him on my list?

If he shows potential next year good for him, but for now he hasn't.

Yeah he can improve, but so can just about every cyclist lol.

Froome had shown no potential before the Vuelta in 2011 yet he came second. EBH showed great potential in 2009 yet has stagnated until recently.

I ask you again, exactly what potential has Geraint Thomas shown so far in Roubaix that I need to include him in my Cancellara list? Must I include every single person that can improve?

Getting third, fourth or even 15th in your very first Paris-Roubaix, that is potential. Finishing 64th in your first Roubaix and abandoning in your second Roubaix really isn't.

For all I know Moreno Moser will win Roubaix one day, but he sure as hell hasn't shown the potential to win it yet.

 

[The Hitch]

I didn't say that, and it isn't my opinion. It is *you* who used Evans as example, and I just showed why he isn't comparable with Thomas. Ten years ago was December 2002 *after* Evans' Giro performance....

Yes you are saying that you are saying that in this post even.

The argument is about whether riders coming from different sports have later improvements.
I used Evans as an example of a rider who comes from another sport and improves into his 30's.
And yet you are insisting that we cant use Evans because he is better.

So even if you were merely using the "Evans almost won the giro" comment to show off that you watched the race or whatever, in the context of the actual discussion , your insistence that Evans cannot be used as a comparison because he is better comes acrross as making the point that weaker riders dont improve.

Because you are introducing the variable of "ability" into the question.

Either way, if you really do believe that Thomas cant follow the same improvement pattern as Evans because he isnt as good a rider, then take a look at wiggins.

 

[Netserk]

so.if i said to you 10 years ago that cadel evans, coming from.mtb still has potential. You would have argued till the cows came.home.that he is an.overated anglophone who woll never get those years back?

the rider who was close to win the giro as a 25 year old?

yeah .and thomas is 26. Evans improved so why is it seen as so obsurd that thomas can improve?

and thomas was leading p-r with 15 km to go last year?

dude are you for real? Riders who arent already contending for the top races cant improve? Only riders who are actually in with a shot for a monument or gt can experience "improvement" everyone else is doomed to remain at the same level for the rest of their careers?

This is honestly the dumbest thing i ever heard on the forum and that includes stuff pistrollero said?

i didn't say that, and it isn't my opinion. It is *you* who used evans as example, and i just showed why he isn't comparable with thomas. Ten years ago was december 2002 *after* evans' giro performance....

yes you are saying that you are saying that in this post even.

The argument is about whether riders coming from different sports have later improvements.
I used evans as an example of a rider who comes from another sport and improves into his 30's.
And yet you are insisting that we cant use evans because he is better.

So even if you were merely using the "evans almost won the giro" comment to show off that you watched the race or whatever, in the context of the actual discussion , your insistence that evans cannot be used as a comparison because he is better comes acrross as making the point that weaker riders dont improve.

Because you are introducing the variable of "ability" into the question.

Either way, if you really do believe that thomas cant follow the same improvement pattern as evans because he isnt as good a rider, then take a look at wiggins.

Difference is that Evans improved from being a 25 year old close to win the Giro -> Tour winner.

If Thomas improved similarly he would go from 64th to ~20th.

And it didn't come across as if you meant *that* as improvement...

Bottom line yes he can improve. But no way he will reach the level of Boom or Phinney

 

[mr. tibbs]

Yup. That's why this thread is so useless. Even if you determine who the best cobble rider is, you're still gonna watch next spring who can win the big classics. There aren't many certainties in cycling, a lot can happen in the coming four months.

Everything we do on here is useles--especially during the off season! Now I'm off to vote in more polls.

 

[The Hitch]

Difference is that Evans improved from being a 25 year old close to win the Giro -> Tour winner.

And wiggins improved from being someone who would struggle to finish in the top half of Letappe du Tour to a TDF winner

And no way is G only the 62nd best PR rider.
He came 2nd in the TDF stage (positioning cant be that bad when the other 5 riders in the group were 3 gt contenders and the 1-2 from PR that year)

 

[Siriuscat]

Got bored with the back and forward....anyway; I went for Boonen but only just, I think they are pretty equally matched on the cobbled classics ( and that's we're talking about) each has had their day. Now if we could get a year where both were healthy and the weather played it's spring games, wet...cold...nasty then we'd see the true champion between them, the Flahute! I think Boonen would take it

 

[silverrocket]

boonen is definitely not better in positioning himself. cancellara is probably the best placer and steerer in the entire peloton, save perhaps sagan

Yeah, I can still vividly recall Cancellara's demonstration of his bike handling during the Olympic road race. Wasn't the best "steerer" around that corner, that's for sure.

 

[Afrank]

Yeah, I can still vividly recall Cancellara's demonstration of his bike handling during the Olympic road race. Wasn't the best "steerer" around that corner, that's for sure.

Yeah, Cancellara is a terrible bike handler. That's why he was almost dropping Nibali (one of the best descender's in the peloton) on the descent of the poggio in MSR this year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9UpH7OCefM

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

silverrocket just got owned

 

[El Pistolero]

Yeah, Cancellara is a terrible bike handler. That's why he was almost dropping Nibali (one of the best descender's in the peloton) on the descent of the poggio in MSR this year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9UpH7OCefM

Nibali is one of the best descenders for a lightweight. He wouldn't be able to follow Hushovd on a descent. I wouldn't call him the best positioner or steerer even if he's good at it.

If he really was the best he wouldn't have crashed so awkwardly during the Olympics. Riding without your hands on the handlebars in the feed-zone of the Ronde this year wasn't very smart either. Though I do not think he's bad at steering or positioning at all, but let's look at the full picture before you call him the best at something.

He was also riding in a lost position at the Koppenberg in 2009 before his chain snapped while Boonen was riding at the front.

 

[Afrank]

Nibali is one of the best descenders for a lightweight. He wouldn't be able to follow Hushovd on a descent. I wouldn't call him the best positioner or steerer even if he's good at it.

If he really was the best he wouldn't have crashed so awkwardly during the Olympics. Riding without your hands on the handlebars in the feed-zone of the Ronde this year wasn't very smart either. Though I do not think he's bad at steering or positioning at all, but let's look at the full picture before you call him the best at something.

He was also riding in a lost position at the Koppenberg in 2009 before his chain snapped while Boonen was riding at the front.

Silverrocket said bike handler though, and he has shown countless times he is a excellent bike handler. I don't think his crash at the Olympics automatically means he's not a good bike handler or steerer. Everyone crashes, no matter how good a bike handler or steerer the rider is. I don't know if I would call him the outright best of the best, but he's definitely up there with the top bike handlers.

And wasn't his crash at RVV because someone dropped a bottle? I don't remember hearing anything about him having his hands off the bars.

 

[jens_attacks]

reading all of this...damn how much i want het volk to come!
and of course a muddy roubaix!!

 

[The Hitch]

Nibali is one of the best descenders for a lightweight. He wouldn't be able to follow Hushovd on a descent. I wouldn't call him the best positioner or steerer even if he's good at it.

If he really was the best he wouldn't have crashed so awkwardly during the Olympics. Riding without your hands on the handlebars in the feed-zone of the Ronde this year wasn't very smart either. Though I do not think he's bad at steering or positioning at all, but let's look at the full picture before you call him the best at something.

He was also riding in a lost position at the Koppenberg in 2009 before his chain snapped while Boonen was riding at the front.

Saying that cancellara is not a great bike handler because he had a crash is like sayonv that cav isnt a great sprintee because he lost a sprint.

 

[El Pistolero]

Silverrocket said bike handler though, and he has shown countless times he is a excellent bike handler. I don't think his crash at the Olympics automatically means he's not a good bike handler or steerer. Everyone crashes, no matter how good a bike handler or steerer the rider is. I don't know if I would call him the outright best of the best, but he's definitely up there with the top bike handlers.

And wasn't his crash at RVV because someone dropped a bottle? I don't remember hearing anything about him having his hands off the bars.

I've been at the feed-zone of a classic a couple of times, there's lot's of bottles on the ground. If you ride over them they normally "pop" open. But some are sturdier, but still shouldn't be a problem when you ride over it with your hands on the handlebar. Cancellara was holding a bag of supplies when he crashed. He should've let a domestique do that for him.

 

[Echoes]

Got bored with the back and forward....anyway; I went for Boonen but only just, I think they are pretty equally matched on the cobbled classics ( and that's we're talking about) each has had their day.

What we're talking about is who is the better on the cobbles, which is not the same as who is the best in the cobbled classics.

You don't need to be technically the best on the cobbles to win Paris-Roubaix.

 

[silverrocket]

Saying that cancellara is not a great bike handler because he had a crash is like sayonv that cav isnt a great sprintee because he lost a sprint.

We were discussing who was better at positioning and strategy in races, and I made the claim that Boonen was better at this than Cancellara. I still maintain this, as bike handling and descending are completely different things. Ryo countered by saying Cancellara is one of the best at"placing and steering", and I joked that he wasn't exactly the best at "steering" going around that corner in the Olympics. Cancellara himself said it was a case of bad bike handling.

That's what was said. A few posts later people are angrily telling me how great a descender Cancellara is, and now Hitch is mocking me for something I never said, that Cancellara is "not a great bike handler" because he had that crash.

A few people here need to settle down a bit before they respond.

 

[The Hitch]

We were discussing who was better at positioning and strategy in races, and I made the claim that Boonen was better at this than Cancellara. I still maintain this, as bike handling and descending are completely different things. Ryo countered by saying Cancellara is one of the best at"placing and steering", and I joked that he wasn't exactly the best at "steering" going around that corner in the Olympics. Cancellara himself said it was a case of bad bike handling.

That's what was said. A few posts later people are angrily telling me how great a descender Cancellara is, and now Hitch is mocking me for something I never said, that Cancellara is "not a great bike handler" because he had that crash.

A few people here need to settle down a bit before they respond.

Im not mocking anyone. People are calling into question Cancellara being the best bike handler because of 1 crash and i am ridiculing the idea.

Maybe " a few people" need to stop taking a discussion among anonymous posters on the internet personally.

 

[El Pistolero]

So for those who voted Cancellara as best overall cobbled classic rider up until now(that was the OP's point) how do you explain Boonen winning more?

And please don't start with "he's a sprinter".

Paris-Roubaix 2005: Cancellara wasn't in the final group with Boonen.
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2005: Boonen won solo.
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2006: Cancellara wasn't in the final group with Boonen.
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2007: despite a crash he still finishes almost a minute before Cancellara.
Paris-Roubaix 2007: breakaway survives. Boonen is the strongest man of the favorites. Cancellara gets dropped.
Paris-Roubaix 2008: heavy battle between Ballan, Boonen and Cancellara. Boonen controlled the whole race and had the most energy left. Won the sprint by 30 bike lengths or something. Boonen is fast, but Cancellara normally isn't that slow. He was cramping up till behind his ears.
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2009: Boonen easily the strongest man in the race together with "the shadow" Pippo Pozzato. His teammate Devolder wins because of that.
Paris-Roubaix 2009: Boonen won solo.
Paris-Roubaix 2012: Boonen won solo. Cancellara was not there.

E3 Prijs Vlaanderen 2006: Boonen wins in a sprint against Ballan. Cancellara wasn't in the final group with Boonen.
Gent-Wevelgem 2003: Boonen finished third in a group of 3. Cancellara finishes more than a minute back on Boonen.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

So for those who voted Cancellara as best overall cobbled classic rider up until now(that was the OP's point)

It was? If that was his point then why did he start this thread? It would be utterly pointless.

 

[El Pistolero]

Clearing up the issue of 'right now'.

The aim of this thread is 'who do you think is the overall better cobblestone rider' based on their performances until now. So not just who is right now better.

By that logic Wiggins is a better GC rider than AS.

.......................

 

[Miburo]

So for those who voted Cancellara as best overall cobbled classic rider up until now(that was the OP's point) how do you explain Boonen winning more?

And please don't start with "he's a sprinter".

Paris-Roubaix 2005: Cancellara wasn't in the final group with Boonen.
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2005: Boonen won solo.
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2006: Cancellara wasn't in the final group with Boonen.
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2007: despite a crash he still finishes almost a minute before Cancellara.
Paris-Roubaix 2007: breakaway survives. Boonen is the strongest man of the favorites. Cancellara gets dropped.
Paris-Roubaix 2008: heavy battle between Ballan, Boonen and Cancellara. Boonen controlled the whole race and had the most energy left. Won the sprint by 30 bike lengths or something. Boonen is fast, but Cancellara normally isn't that slow. He was cramping up till behind his ears.
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2009: Boonen easily the strongest man in the race together with "the shadow" Pippo Pozzato. His teammate Devolder wins because of that.
Paris-Roubaix 2009: Boonen won solo.
Paris-Roubaix 2012: Boonen won solo. Cancellara was not there.

E3 Prijs Vlaanderen 2006: Boonen wins in a sprint against Ballan. Cancellara wasn't in the final group with Boonen.
Gent-Wevelgem 2003: Boonen finished third in a group of 3. Cancellara finishes more than a minute back on Boonen.

Canc had a flat tire in roubaix '05 and bringing up '09 is ridiculous. Canc wasn't near 100% at that point. It's way worse than bringing up Boonen '11 for example.

It ****es me off though, boonen should have won at least 1 RVV in 08 or 09.

Paris-roubaix '07: Boonen was indeed clearly the best. He should have won that race too. That's why you should never let a break of 20 guys go in roubaix.