Better GT prospect Sheffield or Pidcock

[triley36]

Am I out of line thinking that there is a real question as to whether or not Magnus Sheffield might be a better GC prospect in GTs than Thomas Pidcock for Ineos? I think it has been widely assumed that Pidcock would eventually be the primary GT leader at Ineos, but Sheffield has a far better TT and is climbing better at Suisse. On the other hand, Pidcock has already performed well at the Tour whereas Sheffield has no noteworthy results over three weeks.

Sheffield better fits a mold Ineos is familiar with- a TT guy who improves climbing and recovery- a la Thomas and Wiggins. Pidcock should have the edge when it comes to climbing- 58 Kgs as opposed to 74 for Sheffield. Sheffield is two years younger.

There is no question as to the talent of Pidcock, and the fact that he is from the U.K. has to be considered when the team dedicates resources, but I do think that there is a legitimate question as to which might ultimately be a more successful GT rider. And I don’t think it is a forgone conclusion that either will ultimately be a GT contender. Would love to hear opinions and thoughts of others…

 

[SHAD0W93]

I think Sheffield should get the leadership nod at Ineos if he still progresses. Pidcock reminds me of a Kwiatkowski type.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I said years ago that Ben Tulett could well be a bigger GC rider than Pidcock, and so far Pidcock hasn't proven me wrong. (Tulett hasn't proven me right yet either, lol). But we haven't seen any real attempts by neither Pidcock nor Sheffield to go for GC to really make that call. I was pleasantly surprised by Pidcock early in last year's Tour. But after his nuclear training camp this winter, i expected more from him in Algarve.

If sheffield is really 1m85 and 74kg, then that means he will have to lose a lot of weight, and i'm not sure how much he can lose without it becoming problematic for his power output. But he's also still young.

 

[triley36]

I said years ago that Ben Tulett could well be a bigger GC rider than Pidcock, and so far Pidcock hasn't proven me wrong. (Tulett hasn't proven me right yet either, lol).

Great call on Tulett. I think he and Arensman have equally a good chance as Pidcock and Sheffield to be the next GT leader at Ineos.

If Ineos are willing to let Tao walk after this year, they must have faith that one or more of the four have the ability to win a GT.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

I think Sheffield should get the leadership nod at Ineos if he still progresses. Pidcock reminds me of a Kwiatkowski type.

I don't think I've ever seen two riders of different generations more similar in terms of both skillset and overall level than Pidcock and Kwiatkowski. They are basically the same rider. Pidcock will probably end up with a better palmares because him being British and Ineos having no Froome equivalent to let him slave away for means his own goals are higher on the team's priority list than Kwiatkowski's were, but he will mostly accumulate them from the same races. In GTs, even a perfect storm won't get him to the podium, just like it didn't for Alaphilippe.

Sheffield is too young to safely draw conclusions about in terms of future prospects, but he strikes me much more as an excellent allrounder who can therefore also climb fairly well than as a potential GT winner. Yes, he's impressed this week so far, but he isn't the first insanely talented 21-year-old allrounder to show his climbing skills here - remember Sagan winning a harder mountain stage than either yesterday's or today's in Grindelwald twelve years ago? His ceiling is arguably higher than Pidcock's, but ultimately I don't think either are destined to be GC riders.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Sheffield easy. Not need to write a thesis.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Great call on Tulett. I think he and Arensman have equally a good chance as Pidcock and Sheffield to be the next GT leader at Ineos.

If Ineos are willing to let Tao walk after this year, they must have faith that one or more of the four have the ability to win a GT.

I think it's more that Ineos realise that Pogacar, Vingegaard and (to a lesser extent?) Evenepoel are two levels above any other GC rider of this generation and therefore the potential ROI on expensive contracts for other GC riders is relatively limited. The second tier of GC riders is worth maybe half of any of those three, but I don't think the wages in the peloton truly reflect that right now and so the kind of money Hart (and Carapaz before him) will be looking for must be more than Ineos expect them to be worth results-wise, hence why they haven't fought hard to keep either. Better to sign younger, cheaper riders and hope one of them turns out to be as good as those three. It's a strategy of biding their time, but that's their penance for failing to sign both Pogacar and Evenepoel, the two biggest talents of their generation even when they turned pro, in spite of being not just the richest, but also the best team at the time (think it's fair to give them a pass on Vingegaard given that he has, comparatively speaking, come out of nowhere).

 

[Nick2413]

With all due respect, Pidcock is the most inconsistent rider in the peloton and is several tiers below in the TT, I wouldn’t even put him above Van der Poel in a GT.

 

[Big Doopie]

Am I out of line thinking that there is a real question as to whether or not Magnus Sheffield might be a better GC prospect in GTs than Thomas Pidcock for Ineos?

no. you are not. particularly if GTs ever put back even a minimum of TT. I have yet to see Pidcock do even moderately well in a single one.

I think it has been widely assumed that Pidcock would eventually be the primary GT leader at Ineos,

uh, nope, that will be Remco shortly... ;-)

 

[Big Doopie]

I wouldn’t even put him above Van der Poel in a GT.

hmm.

van der poel will never win at l'alpe.

just sayin'.

 

[HelloDolly]

Pidcock

He is sup[er talented but has been drawn in too many directions with Mountain Biking, cycle cross , etc

That people on here that call him inconsistent cant see that ? Guess some people havent a clue

 

[StryderHells]

With all due respect, Pidcock is the most inconsistent rider in the peloton and is several tiers below in the TT, I wouldn’t even put him above Van der Poel in a GT.

But he’s already beaten Van der Poel home in a GT and quite comfortably as well.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Pidcock

He is sup[er talented but has been drwan in too many directions with Mountain Biking, cycle cross , etc

That people on here that call him inconsistent cant see that ? Guess some people havent a clue

High praise coming from a poster that never stopped second guessing another young(er) rider regardless his (by far) more spectacular palmares. Some people haven't a clue, was it.

 

[Bolder]

There is no earthly reason Pidcock can't be a very good time trial rider. He is deadly in xc short track, which is basically an anaerobic 10 k prologue; as well as xco. It's probably just a matter of time to prepare. I still maintain we just don't know what he could do if he dedicated himself to GC, and we may never. That's ok; he's one of the most natural mountain bike riders I've ever seen. He just has a unique flow that even hard-core road fans can appreciate, I think.

I don't see Sheffield as a GT rider, but if he lost 5 kg, maybe...

 

[Bushman]

I said years ago that Ben Tulett could well be a bigger GC rider than Pidcock, and so far Pidcock hasn't proven me wrong. (Tulett hasn't proven me right yet either, lol). But we haven't seen any real attempts by neither Pidcock nor Sheffield to go for GC to really make that call. I was pleasantly surprised by Pidcock early in last year's Tour. But after his nuclear training camp this winter, i expected more from him in Algarve.

If sheffield is really 1m85 and 74kg, then that means he will have to lose a lot of weight, and i'm not sure how much he can lose without it becoming problematic for his power output. But he's also still young.

He may be a tad bigger, but isn’t he quite similar to a young Geraint Thomas in terms of physical build and ability? Young Thomas was probably a bit more explosive but Sheffield is already climbing quite well. I think he has a good chance of becoming a GC rider. Problem is with the current generation of GC riders I’m not sure being a world class tt’er and a very good climber is the right recipe for grand tour success.

 

[SafeBet]

I'm still on the fence about Pidcock because the signs of a (potentially) great climber are there for me, but at this point I'm getting more skeptical.
Sheffield could become anything. His build reminds me of a younger G. Thomas, but he's a much better climber at same age (and he's quite consistent too).

BTW I was convinced Tulett was the better GT prospect too but he struggles massively in WT stage races, despite showing both good climbing and time trial performances here and there (mostly in minor races).

 

[BR2]

I don't think Sheffield is a GT GC rider. I think the climbing level in Switzerland this year is not extremely high. You never know and I won't make actual predictions for the future, but in my opinion he's definitely more likely to not become one.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

High praise coming from a poster that never stopped second guessing another young(er) rider regardless his (by far) more spectacular palmares. Some people haven't a clue, was it.

Thankfully, you have never second guessed or downplayed any younger riders and proven to be wrong. A few examples:

If you say Giro has a weak GC field, what did you think of last year's [i.e. 2019's] Vuelta GC field? At that time, Roglic hadn't won a GC yet and had just lost the Giro (his main goal) to two guys who are starting this years Giro, a couple of months before that. The second GC guy was somebody they kidnapped from a retirement home, and the third guy was a wildcard that could have been riding Tour de l'Avenir still.

Based on what do you put Pogacar above Landa, Mas, Uran...? I'd rate Mas' 2018 Vuelta at least on par with Pogacar's 2019 Vuelta, considering the opposition present.

As i have said many times, Pogacar's 3rd place and 3 stagewins has blinded some people. He got dropped multiple times in a weak Vuelta but always managed to hang on, due to tactical games being played by the guys up front. If he doesn't improve compared to the Vuelta, he'll have a hard time getting in the top 10 at the Tour.

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I hardly think this is an indication that Vingegaard is a bigger threat than van Aert, or might be able to keep up with Pogacar over 3 weeks.

First of all, none of the climbs in Itzulia were of such length or height. So far we don't know what Vingegaard can do in 3 weeks. Van Aert has shown to be highly consistent on the other hand.

Last year van Aert had to work all day, do sprints in between, was not on GC contender weight and the course featured less TT kms. I think it's rather naive to think he maxed out last year as a GC contender. Give him a protected role (let him save his energy), keep him out of bunch sprints, work specifically towards GC, and i'm 100% convinced he can do a lot better, especially on this year's route.

I think there are enough riders still in contention for the podium, who have actually proven to be able to compete for a podium, so that i don't see a rider who's best GC achievement was a 2nd place in a 1 week stagerace where Pogacar forfeited his own chances, automatically being a podium contender. It's an opinion at this point, nothing more. And i'm sure i could be proven wrong. But only 3 guys fit on a podium, and you could make the same case for a guy like Gaudu, for instance. You could also easily rate Van Aert's Tirreno/TDF combo higher than anything Vingegaard has done so far. And I wouldn't have said Van Aert were a podium contender even without his surgery, any more than i am Vingegaard.

I think you could make both Foss and Vingegaard ride the same race for GC. They won't be the big favorites, and don't have to take too much responsibilities in the group of favorites, they can ride the coattails of the big boys and their trains. Roglic can't ride 3 GT's for GC so there should definitely be some options for them.

Obviously you can find posts like this for any regular poster, whether they're underestimating Pogacar, Evenepoel or anyone else who went on to be a superstar. The point is that 'you were wrong about a young rider' is a really stupid dunk because that happens to all of us, yet you've tried to use posting histories underestimating Evenepoel over and over to try and discredit the opinions of said posters.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Sheffield had a flat and a bike change during the last stage. Could've finished a lot closer than 3 minutes behind. And he's still in the top 10 of Suisse despite of that.

Idk if he's a GT prospect but he is a lot more consistent than Pidcock. But Pidcock has (way) better peaks... but is also a bit older no?

 

[SafeBet]

Sheffield had a flat and a bike change during the last stage. Could've finished a lot closer than 3 minutes behind. And he's still in the top 10 of Suisse despite of that.

Idk if he's a GT prospect but he is a lot more consistent than Pidcock. But Pidcock has (way) better peaks... but is also a bit older no?

Pidcock is 3 years older than Sheffield.

 

[SHAD0W93]

With all due respect, Pidcock is the most inconsistent rider in the peloton and is several tiers below in the TT, I wouldn’t even put him above Van der Poel in a GT.

I don’t think Van der Poel can finish 16th or even top 30 in a GT honestly.

 

[Netserk]

I find it more likely than not that Pidcock will top-5 a GT in the next 3½ years. I don't think so for Sheffield.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Thankfully, you have never second guessed or downplayed any younger riders and proven to be wrong. A few examples:





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Obviously you can find posts like this for any regular poster, whether they're underestimating Pogacar, Evenepoel or anyone else who went on to be a superstar. The point is that 'you were wrong about a young rider' is a really stupid dunk because that happens to all of us, yet you've tried to use posting histories underestimating Evenepoel over and over to try and discredit the opinions of said posters.

No, this is a complete mistepresentation of my general view. First of all, those posts all come from within a very short timeframe regarding a specific rider. You probably even found a lot of those in the same topic / discussion. Furthermore, i have since acknowledged abundently and repeatedly how i think about the riders you dug up these posts from and have adjusted my opinion and expressed my respect for them at the very least as top tier athletes.

Furthermore you will also find that having high expectations for a young rider, yet not believing he will (for example) finish top 10/5/3 at the Tour, are not mutually exclusive. Feel free to read the first pages of the Pogacar thread, and you will see i held him in high regard, before even going to the Vuelta. Feel free to find that kind of posts from the poster i addressed. I also hold Van Wilder in high regard, i do not think he would finish top 10 at the Tour at this point in his career. Me (wrongfully) believing a rider will not be able to do something at a young age does not mean i hold him in contempt.

As for the poster i addressed, he has been ridiculing Evenepoel and his fans or people who thought highly of him over the course of YEARS and hardly ever acknowledged his mistake or the rider's class. So your entire post can go straight into the garbage bin and to me is nothing but a disingenuous and clueless attempt.

 

[jmdirt]

no. you are not. particularly if GTs ever put back even a minimum of TT. I have yet to see Pidcock do even moderately well in a single one.

uh, nope, that will be Remco shortly... ;-)

If they do buy Remco, that certainly puts some waves in the GT pool on that team.

To answer the thread question: I hope that they both battle for GC in all stage races. I can't make prediction on who will be the best, but I love some of the young USAers in the platoon now.

 

[Strawberry_Jams]

rule one of being a gc rider is not crashing. unfortunately Sheffield seems to crash a lot...but still, Geraint Thomas. Although some could say there is a difference between bad luck and bad bike handling.