Better TT : Ullrich vs. Contador ?

[Dekker_Tifosi]

In his peak (96/97) Ullrich rode wattages in mountain stages that put the very best Contador to shame.

Ofcourse, Ullrich was also superfueled, but if you simply ignore that. 96/97 Ullrich would ride Contador on minutes and minutes, both in flat and mountain ITT and even mountain stages.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

To specify, Ullrichs best mountain performances in 96/97 came down to a sustained effort of 470 to 490W

Contador in his best years > 420 to 440W

The difference is literally MINUTES on 1 single mountain. Ullrich would win 2/3 minutes every climb

 

[El Pistolero]

Let's see his results after EPO testing came into existence.

Oh wait, practically non existant.

Though I don't remember if it was 2000 or 2001 when they brought the test in.

 

[roundabout]

3 TdF podiums, 2 Tours de Suisse, ITT WC etc

non-existant, lol

 

[Lanark]

The 2000 olympic games saw the introduction of the EPO-test (where Ullrich won gold and silver).

 

[El Pistolero]

3 TdF podiums, 2 Tours de Suisse, ITT WC etc

non-existant, lol

Never came close to a win besides 2003. So yeah, I call that non existant.

 

[roundabout]

now you sound like the German media

 

[El Pistolero]

The 2000 olympic games saw the introduction of the EPO-test (where Ullrich won gold and silver).

Ah, was any cyclist busted during the 2 races?

 

[Bavarianrider]

To specify, Ullrichs best mountain performances in 96/97 came down to a sustained effort of 470 to 490W

Contador in his best years > 420 to 440W

The difference is literally MINUTES on 1 single mountain. Ullrich would win 2/3 minutes every climb

Well to be fair you have to adjust their Watt performances to their weight.

 

[Escarabajo]

The 2000 olympic games saw the introduction of the EPO-test (where Ullrich won gold and silver).

So he was clean then. Got it. Finally some clarity to these issues.

Thanks.

 

[Escarabajo]

To specify, Ullrichs best mountain performances in 96/97 came down to a sustained effort of 470 to 490W

Contador in his best years > 420 to 440W

The difference is literally MINUTES on 1 single mountain. Ullrich would win 2/3 minutes every climb

?????

You can not add minutes just on power. Adjust for the weight of each rider.

And Ullrich did show more than 500 Watts in some of the climbs.

 

[Angliru]

I find it incredibly surprising that a rider on Manolo Saiz's team placed 48th in the TT in 2005, but destroys everyone in 2009 including L.A., Jan's eternal rival. The fact that we're trying to compare him to Jan Ulrich, well that's pure gold.

He's either the most talented, angelic and pure rider of the past 5 years and trumps Jan "Cream Pie" Ulrich hands down...or this thread is completely pointless as the only thing that differentiates the two is their doctor.

What's surprising is that there are still the same old, tired food related stabs at Jan after all these years. It was old then and is even older and more tired now.

 

[sky forever]

Jan would win
Jan has the six fastest time up Alpe d'huez in TdF history - 38m23s

Jan DID win...he put 6 minutes into Alberto when they both TT'd
against one another....2005 stage 20:

1 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel 1.11.46 (46.4 km/h)
2 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team 0.23
3 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team 1.16
4 Bobby Julich (USA) Team CSC 1.33
5 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC 1.54
6 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 2.02
7 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto 2.06
8 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel 2.25
9 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 2.51
10 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 3.05
11 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Discovery Channel 3.09
12 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC 3.10
13 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Credit Agricole 3.11
14 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner 3.13
15 Oscar Pereiro Sio (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 3.25
16 Sebastian Lang (Ger) Gerolsteiner 3.26
17 Luke Roberts (Aus) Team CSC 3.47
18 Dario Cioni (Ita) Liquigas-Bianchi 3.51
19 Jörg Jaksche (Ger) Liberty Seguros-Würth
20 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Fassa Bortolo 4.03
21 Andrei Kashechkin (Kaz) Credit Agricole 4.24
22 Laszlo Bodrogi (Hun) Credit Agricole 4.37
23 Thomas Lövkvist (Swe) Française Des Jeux 4.41
24 Giuseppe Guerini (Ita) T-Mobile Team 4.45
25 Chris Horner (USA) Saunier Duval-Prodir
26 Bert Grabsch (Ger) Phonak Hearing Systems 4.55
27 Marcos Serrano (Spa) Liberty Seguros-Würth 4.58
28 Andrei Grivko (Ukr) Domina Vacanze 5.03
29 Joost Posthuma (Ned) Rabobank 5.13
30 Michael Rogers (Aus) Quick.Step 5.18
31 Jose Luis Rubiera (Spa) Discovery Channel 5.24
32 Stefano Garzelli (Ita) Liquigas-Bianchi 5.26
33 Daniele Nardello (Ita) T-Mobile Team 5.37
34 Tobias Steinhauser (Ger) T-Mobile Team 5.40
35 Pierrick Fédrigo (Fra) Bouygues Telecom 5.48
36 Laurent Lefèvre (Fra) Bouygues Telecom 5.52
37 Axel Merckx (Bel) Davitamon-Lotto 5.53
38 Pavel Padrnos (Cze) Discovery Channel
39 Eddy Mazzoleni (Ita) Lampre-Caffita
40 Bradley McGee (Aus) Française Des Jeux
41 Luis León Sanchez (Spa) Liberty Seguros-Würth 5.56
42 Ronny Scholz (Ger) Gerolsteiner 5.57
43 Laurent Brochard (Fra) Bouygues Telecom 5.59
44 Georg Totschnig (Aut) Gerolsteiner 6.00
45 Rubens Bertogliati (Swi) Saunier Duval-Prodir 6.02
46 Johan Vansummeren (Bel) Davitamon-Lotto 6.08
47 Maxim Iglinski (Kaz) Domina Vacanze 6.11
48 Alberto Contador (Spa) Liberty Seguros-Würth 6.12

This was in 2005 whe Contador wasn't even considered a GC rider. NOr was he in his prime!

 

[Bavarianrider]

Actually Jan is the third fastest time in Alpe D'Huez just behind Pantani and only 1 second behind Lance in 2004.
It was in 1999 when they started to measure times from the 13.9km mark.
Before that they measured from ca 14.5km. Even earlier in the early 90s/80s they started to clock the time even earlier. Tha's wha you get this very long times for Hinault and Lemond by the way. The lists like the one in Wikipedia are not accurate as the times are not clocked for the same distance. Actually Wikipedia mentions this

Actually Pantani rode a 36:50 from the 13.9km mark in 1997. (You can chek it if you still got it on tape. 13.9 is just at the corner). Therefore Jan did a 37:37

 

[hrotha]

Wow, a 22-year-old who wasn't involved in any way in the GC didn't do well in the 20th stage of his first Tour de France? That says lots about his talent.

Van Garderen sucked at the Vuelta's TT. He's obviously not a time-trialist.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Not sure why reference is being made to a TT AC did in 2005. He was just starting out.

Still, I give the advantage to Jan over him. About 90 seconds in a flat 50 km TT - about even on a mountain TT. Ullrich had so many excellent TT performances.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Wow, a 22-year-old who wasn't involved in any way in the GC didn't do well in the 20th stage of his first Tour de France? That says lots about his talent.

Van Garderen sucked at the Vuelta's TT. He's obviously not a time-trialist.

Do you realise Ullrich at that age was already on the level of a TDF podium finisher/winner?

Contador can win 5 more tours. Ullrich was a bigger beast

 

[gregrowlerson]

In shape Jan would beat anyone in a TT. Up a hill he'd also be very close, problem was he was never really at his best

I think that Jan was close enough to being at his best in '01, and LA still beat him pretty convincingly in both ITT's. Look at Ullrich's consistency in that race at defeating everyone else that mattered on GC in the mountains and TT's - except Armstrong.

The reasons for his slower times than in '96-'98 could be Clinic related discussion.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Jan...both, no doubt in my mind.
He had a huge engine and was an excellent TT guy. He rode a bike with pure style....
Ulle would spit AC out on the flat as well as power his bike up the mountain---once he got his rythm heading up there was no stopping him.

 

[hrotha]

Do you realise Ullrich at that age was already on the level of a TDF podium finisher/winner?

Contador can win 5 more tours. Ullrich was a bigger beast

I also realize Ullrich was not the norm.

I'm not saying he's better than Ullrich (I think this thread is a little ridiculous - Ullrich was on a whole 'nother level when it came to TTing), but using his 2005 Tour results to say Contador wasn't a time-trialist until he "transformed" or something is silly.

However I just noticed the point was originally raised by Polish so ignore all of this.

 

[Bavarianrider]

I think that Jan was close enough to being at his best in '01, and LA still beat him pretty convincingly in both ITT's. Look at Ullrich's consistency in that race at defeating everyone else that mattered on GC in the mountains and TT's - except Armstrong.

The reasons for his slower times than in '96-'98 could be Clinic related discussion.

The thing is, in 2001 Ullrich rode with haematocrit of 42 without EPO or any other Blood doping, and yes that's a fact! Ullrich was at his best in 2001 but in 2001 he did not have the best medical treatment. Maybe Ullrich in 2001 was the best we have ever seen anyone riding wighout blood manipilation.

 

[Merckx]

To specify, Ullrichs best mountain performances in 96/97 came down to a sustained effort of 470 to 490W

Contador in his best years > 420 to 440W

The difference is literally MINUTES on 1 single mountain. Ullrich would win 2/3 minutes every climb

Ullrich also weighed about 11kg more than Contador. Using the numbers you provided, Contador's Watts/Kg is higher than Ullrich's. How do you figure that Ullrich would beat him by 2-3 mins every climb?

Or are you just a Contador hater?

 

[pedaling squares]

You guys have a good debate going there, let's avoid the 'hater/fanboy' taunts and stick to the science. It's a nice change in a thread that is otherwise mainly about personal preference.

 

[sadfitty]

Power and weight aside:
Ullrich climbed Andorra in 22:25.
Contador used 25:15.
Yes, Contador only attacked with less than 2 km to go, and Ullrich went flat out for a long time. But, keep in mind, Ullrich's winning time on that stage was 7 hours 45 minutes. The 2009 stage was only 6 hours 15 minutes for Contador.

 

[rhubroma]

This was in 2005 whe Contador wasn't even considered a GC rider. NOr was he in his prime!

Still what's striking to me is that most of the pure talents were very good even in their first Tour years. From Merxce, to Hinault, to Fignon, to Lemond, to Pantani in the mountains, to even Ullrich.

It does seem odd that as evidently talented as AC has shown himself to be since his first Tour, that he was so far out of contention in that race. Of course, the same could be said of Indurain and Armstrong, but with the record of grand tour wins AC has put up since his first years, you would have thought - I'm not saying podiumed in his first Tour - but done something a little bit more consistent with his abilities today.