Bin Laden dead

[JeffreyPerry]

The best thing afte the removal with extreme prejudice of bIn Laden safe egress of the Navy Seals and the confiscation of info and computers of terror .org was K-9 Storm and the other Navy Seal Dogs peed all over the furniture.

Hopefully so did the SEALS...

 

[Anonymous]

You know, I read a lot of the criticism here of the American reaction to his death. I understand that some of it was distasteful, but unless you lived here at that time and experienced the shock of what actually happened, your judgment is second hand, and fails to recognize just how devastating it was. I still remember balling my eyes out watching the Star Spangled Banner played at Buckingham Palace the day after. I taught history and civics at the time, and it was the topic for months because only the WWII generation had ever seen anything like it. You can slam us for the reaction if you want, but I assure you that if you lived in New York or just about anywhere else in the US when it happened, your opinions would be tempered. I am not big on celebrating the death of anyone because I find it morally abhorrent, however, as a human, I was happy he was shot in the head regardless of whether it will change anything. Sometimes, visceral reactions are uncontrollable initially, and that was the case for me when I heard.

 

[rhubroma]

You know, I read a lot of the criticism here of the American reaction to his death. I understand that some of it was distasteful, but unless you lived here at that time and experienced the shock of what actually happened, your judgment is second hand, and fails to recognize just how devastating it was. I still remember balling my eyes out watching the Star Spangled Banner played at Buckingham Palace the day after. I taught history and civics at the time, and it was the topic for months because only the WWII generation had ever seen anything like it. You can slam us for the reaction if you want, but I assure you that if you lived in New York or just about anywhere else in the US when it happened, your opinions would be tempered. I am not big on celebrating the death of anyone because I find it morally abhorrent, however, as a human, I was happy he was shot in the head regardless of whether it will change anything. Sometimes, visceral reactions are uncontrollable initially, and that was the case for me when I heard.

The sensational aspect of 9-11 was surly devastating and traumatic to the national psyche, the visibility and media aspects of which only further augmented the shock, coupled with it having happened in a country not used to such violence and carnage on its own soil. Amen. (Even if, because of TV, the shock was felt on the streets of Belgium, just as it was on those of Arkansas).

I think what you don't consider, however, (apart from the universality of the event) is that there are tragedies all around the world that have involved even more deaths, which are given less media attention, if any, in places where the people suffer and live in conditions far worse than in the US on a daily basis. Silent voices living in less "innocent" and "important" places, too pitiful and insignificant within the global geopolitical arena, or else victims of it, for us to often take notice. The horror of Sept. 11 and the "personality" of Osama bin Laden offered thus great, though tragic, examples of how American was now at one with all those silent, suffering voices. With the weak and shattered of the planet.

I have always thought that 9-11 should have been call to serious reflection: about society, the world, history and our place and force within it. Yet it was merely turned into an instrument of state propaganda and fear, to be able to put into effect plans that were already being discussed by the neo-cons in the New American Century since the 90's. And their power of persuasion was far more compelling and authoritative over the masses, than a desire for a more sober contemplation and course of action not based wholly on economic interests.

That this was indeed the case, was evidenced in the all the emotional young "party-goers" wrapped in US flags chanting "USA! USA! USA!", rather than a simple bow of the head for those who perished on an infamous date and for all those who have died since, the colossal sums that have been spent, in the name of ideology, fanaticism, interests - on both sides of the fence.

Also having the hordes chant for the death of the enemy in the West, is like the Islamic mobs burning US flags and images of the president: the flip side of the same coin. Apart from not demonstrating the tasteful composure befiting of the civilized, it is barbaric and voodoo.

 

[flicker]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...UyO0Pw?docId=a26a46fa16f443109e7a4ab2f592ba96

Really a pity, in the name of political correctness, the Seals did not take the 3 wives of Osama . They have all the info the USA needs on al quida.

 

[Anonymous]

The sensational aspect of 9-11 was surly devastating and traumatic to the national psyche, the visibility and media aspects of which only further augmented the shock, coupled with it having happened in a country not used to such violence and carnage on its own soil. Amen. (Even if, because of TV, the shock was felt on the streets of Belgium, just as it was on those of Arkansas).

I don't think the shock was the same elsewhere regardless of TV. But that is just my opinion.

I think what you don't consider, however, (apart from the universality of the event) is that there are tragedies all around the world that have involved even more deaths, which are given less media attention, if any, in places where the people suffer and live in conditions far worse than in the US on a daily basis. Silent voices living in less "innocent" and "important" places, too pitiful and insignificant within the global geopolitical arena, or else victims of it, for us to often take notice. The horror of Sept. 11 and the "personality" of Osama bin Laden offered thus great, though tragic, examples of how American was now at one with all those silent, suffering voices. With the weak and shattered of the planet.

I am angling to working with an International Human Rights Legal organization, so while I realize that as an American living in America, you believe I have no knowledge of such things, I can assure you that I need no lecture on the conditions people face all over the world. That is immaterial to my point. My point is one of subjectivity, not objectivity.

I have always thought that 9-11 should have been call to serious reflection: about society, the world, history and our place and force within it. Yet it was merely turned into an instrument of state propaganda and fear, to be able to put into effect plans that were already being discussed by the neo-cons in the New American Century since the 90's. And their power of persuasion was far more compelling and authoritative over the masses, than a desire for a more sober contemplation and course of action not based wholly on economic interests.

What "neo-cons" reflected on, and what I took from it are completely different things. Again, I realize that from TV, you have a myopic view of what many people here understand and know, but your generalization here is off base in terms of me and the people I associate with.

That this was indeed the case, was evidenced in the all the emotional young "party-goers" wrapped in US flags chanting "USA! USA! USA!", rather than a simple bow of the head for those who perished on an infamous date and for all those who have died since, the colossal sums that have been spent, in the name of ideology, fanaticism, interests - on both sides of the fence.

Again, I merely pointed out that a harsh judgment of such people must also take into account more than just their immediate reaction to bin Ladden's death. There are stupid people everywhere. In fact, I understand that there are still places there where you can faintly see "Il Duce" on walls...

Also having the hordes chant for the death of the enemy in the West, is like the Islamic mobs burning US flags and images of the president: the flip side of the same coin. Apart from not demonstrating the tasteful composure befiting of the civilized, it is barbaric and voodoo.

I don't disagree with this at all. Certainly the same expression of happiness was apparent in many places the day after the World Trade Center towers fell.

My biggest problem is your continued drum beat that we Americans are all the same, and incapable of understanding the complexities of society and politics.

 

[flicker]

The sensational aspect of 9-11 was surly devastating and traumatic to the national psyche, the visibility and media aspects of which only further augmented the shock, coupled with it having happened in a country not used to such violence and carnage on its own soil. Amen. (Even if, because of TV, the shock was felt on the streets of Belgium, just as it was on those of Arkansas).

I think what you don't consider, however, (apart from the universality of the event) is that there are tragedies all around the world that have involved even more deaths, which are given less media attention, if any, in places where the people suffer and live in conditions far worse than in the US on a daily basis. Silent voices living in less "innocent" and "important" places, too pitiful and insignificant within the global geopolitical arena, or else victims of it, for us to often take notice. The horror of Sept. 11 and the "personality" of Osama bin Laden offered thus great, though tragic, examples of how American was now at one with all those silent, suffering voices. With the weak and shattered of the planet.

I have always thought that 9-11 should have been call to serious reflection: about society, the world, history and our place and force within it. Yet it was merely turned into an instrument of state propaganda and fear, to be able to put into effect plans that were already being discussed by the neo-cons in the New American Century since the 90's. And their power of persuasion was far more compelling and authoritative over the masses, than a desire for a more sober contemplation and course of action not based wholly on economic interests.

That this was indeed the case, was evidenced in the all the emotional young "party-goers" wrapped in US flags chanting "USA! USA! USA!", rather than a simple bow of the head for those who perished on an infamous date and for all those who have died since, the colossal sums that have been spent, in the name of ideology, fanaticism, interests - on both sides of the fence.

Also having the hordes chant for the death of the enemy in the West, is like the Islamic mobs burning US flags and images of the president: the flip side of the same coin. Apart from not demonstrating the tasteful composure befiting of the civilized, it is barbaric and voodoo.

I remember for the first months after 911 how courteous and respectful motorists were in their driving habits, I felt the images of the twin towers helped realize our humanity.
I feel like we have a humane and sensitive president , and from what I see no rah,rah USA flags shown in our pick-ups.
There is reflection and respect being shown here from the women in head scarves to the white protestants. Some of the most respectful are our servicemen. If the world wants to judge the USA from what happened when we ceased being a colony to the UK OK, oh well, live in the past, your prerogative. If the world, especially the radical Islamics want to judge us from seeing some young people celebrating in Times, square or Washington, oh well.
They do not remember that those young people may have had their first exposer to threat, and horror, when they watched the towers hit and collapsed, over and over agin on TV. I do not blame the young people for celebrating, Osama instigated a cowardly act, against innocents.
Getting back to it, I think that the 911 attack was a sobering wake up call, to the nastiness out there in the world.

 

[rhubroma]

I don't think the shock was the same elsewhere regardless of TV. But that is just my opinion.



I am angling to working with an International Human Rights Legal organization, so while I realize that as an American living in America, you believe I have no knowledge of such things, I can assure you that I need no lecture on the conditions people face all over the world. That is immaterial to my point. My point is one of subjectivity, not objectivity.



What "neo-cons" reflected on, and what I took from it are completely different things. Again, I realize that from TV, you have a myopic view of what many people here understand and know, but your generalization here is off base in terms of me and the people I associate with.



Again, I merely pointed out that a harsh judgment of such people must also take into account more than just their immediate reaction to bin Ladden's death. There are stupid people everywhere. In fact, I understand that there are still places there where you can faintly see "Il Duce" on walls...



I don't disagree with this at all. Certainly the same expression of happiness was apparent in many places the day after the World Trade Center towers fell.

My biggest problem is your continued drum beat that we Americans are all the same, and incapable of understanding the complexities of society and politics.

Not at all and you know this, or, if you don't, then are merely taking up a defensive position without really considering the rational behind what I was actually saying. How you concluded that what I mentioned about the neo-cons was in relation to your viewpoint escapes me. I'm quite aware you don't subscribe to their ideology.

And I never doubted how complex the situation was, but only wanted to point out that just about all of the people doing the loudest celebrating haven’t any idea of this. For them its gets all broken down into black and white, "us against them" and that's it.

In fact such complexities, as you call them, often register best when one is looking from a different vantage and away from the TV screens. In regards to society and politics, the lessons to be learned from the propaganda of Augustus to il Duce (since you mentioned his name), are still quite valid today. As the TV clips have demonstrated.

 

[rhubroma]

I remember for the first months after 911 how courteous and respectful motorists were in their driving habits, I felt the images of the twin towers helped realize our humanity.
I feel like we have a humane and sensitive president , and from what I see no rah,rah USA flags shown in our pick-ups.
There is reflection and respect being shown here from the women in head scarves to the white protestants. Some of the most respectful are our servicemen. If the world wants to judge the USA from what happened when we ceased being a colony to the UK OK, oh well, live in the past, your prerogative. If the world, especially the radical Islamics want to judge us from seeing some young people celebrating in Times, square or Washington, oh well.
They do not remember that those young people may have had their first exposer to threat, and horror, when they watched the towers hit and collapsed, over and over agin on TV. I do not blame the young people for celebrating, Osama instigated a cowardly act, against innocents.
Getting back to it, I think that the 911 attack was a sobering wake up call, to the nastiness out there in the world.

Anytime from the ashes of a tragedy a part of society finds catharsis in a rediscovered humanity, some sense, I don't say recovery, from the "nastiness out there in the world" is made of it.

It leaves us some hope that such nastiness can only work toward its own demise.

 

[JeffreyPerry]

You know, I read a lot of the criticism here of the American reaction to his death. I understand that some of it was distasteful, but unless you lived here at that time and experienced the shock of what actually happened, your judgment is second hand, and fails to recognize just how devastating it was. I still remember balling my eyes out watching the Star Spangled Banner played at Buckingham Palace the day after. I taught history and civics at the time, and it was the topic for months because only the WWII generation had ever seen anything like it. You can slam us for the reaction if you want, but I assure you that if you lived in New York or just about anywhere else in the US when it happened, your opinions would be tempered. I am not big on celebrating the death of anyone because I find it morally abhorrent, however, as a human, I was happy he was shot in the head regardless of whether it will change anything. Sometimes, visceral reactions are uncontrollable initially, and that was the case for me when I heard.

Very well said TFF...

 

[Rip:30]

you guys both raise some good points. no we shouldn't trivialize the impact 9/11 had on our citizenry which had been completely isolated from the threat of attack for a few generations by a false sense of security. but also that citizenry should probably consider the events of the last decade in a more global and historical context. i mean lets get real here people, al Queda is a joke compared the real threats our grandparents faced in WWII. the level of fear that spread after 9/11 was way out of proportion to the threat.

 

[pedaling squares]

That this was indeed the case, was evidenced in the all the emotional young "party-goers" wrapped in US flags chanting "USA! USA! USA!", rather than a simple bow of the head for those who perished on an infamous date and for all those who have died since, the colossal sums that have been spent, in the name of ideology, fanaticism, interests - on both sides of the fence.

These same young people have named a drink in Bin Laden's honour. The 'Bin Laden' - two shots followed by a splash of water.

 

[Rip:30]

The U S A U S A U S A chant supposedly rose to prominence way back at the 1980 Olympic triumph of US hockey team over the USSR.

 

[redtreviso]

Andrew Card implies that President Obama is being uppity about killing Bin Laden

President Obama has 'pounded his chest' too much and taken too much pride in the success of the mission to take out Osama bin Laden, according to, of all people, George W. Bush's former Chief of Staff, Andrew Card.

In an interview with German newspaper Der Spiegel, Card said that Obama has "pounded his chest" too much over the death of Osama bin Laden, particularly by going to Ground Zero earlier this week, the site of the 9/11 attacks.

"I think he has pounded his chest a little too much," Card said. "He can take pride in it, but he does not need to show it so much."

 

[rhubroma]

I had previously mentioned that one contributing factor to Osama's mission against America was the unresolved Palestinian question, to which it was replied that "no, not really...it was rather due to the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, along with other contingent issues". In short, the Palestinian dilemma had nothing to do with it. To which I said that this was not so, citing the case of Sabra e Chatile, etc.

Well in today's papers, at least those to which I have access, we read what a fundamentalist Islamic site has put on the web in the way of Osama's last taped message: "Our attacks against you - threatens the founder of Al Qaeda - will continue as long as your sustaining of Israel continues. America will not be able to dream of its own security, until we live the same sicurity in Palestine."

And again: "There won't be security in America, without security in Palestine. It's unjust that you Americans are in peace while our brothers at Gaza live in desperation. By God's will we will attach you again."

Clearly, thus, the radicalization of Osama's cause has, since the very beginning, in part been connected to the unjustices that the Palestinians have had to support for decades at the hands of Israel and America's totally biased support of the latter, for which it provides the largest foreign aid.

To be clear, Osama's cause is criminal and horrific, while the right of Israel to exist does not come into question; however, if the so called experts in Washington and the US universities have been able to convince the masses in that country that the Palestine cause had no bearing on the formation of Al Qaeda, then this is the fruit of a vapid propaganda to excuse (or at any rate not draw attention to) a foreign policy and ideology that has been anything but just and democratic in the region.

I would only hope that simply because Osama has told us that it always was the case, that this doesn't only reinforce the intransigence and myopia of the more conservatives elements in power at Washington in regards to this problematic (for America and Israel) agenda.

As one step to toward attenuating the radical Islamic cause, and providing Israel with more national security, is resolving the Palestinian problem.

 

[Spare Tyre]

I think Americans are far more used to their country inflicting violence and death on the citizens of other countries than having it inflicted on them.

 

[redtreviso]

I had previously mentioned that one contributing factor to Osama's mission against America was the unresolved Palestinian question, to which it was replied that "no, not really...it was rather due to the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, along with other contingent issues". In short, the Palestinian dilemma had nothing to do with it. To which I said that this was not so, citing the case of Sabra e Chatile, etc.

Well in today's papers, at least those to which I have access, we read what a fundamentalist Islamic site has put on the web in the way of Osama's last taped message: "Our attacks against you - threatens the founder of Al Qaeda - will continue as long as your sustaining of Israel continues. America will not be able to dream of its own security, until we live the same sicurity in Palestine."

And again: "There won't be security in America, without security in Palestine. It's unjust that you Americans are in peace while our brothers at Gaza live in desperation. By God's will we will attach you again."

Clearly, thus, the radicalization of Osama's cause has, since the very beginning, in part been connected to the unjustices that the Palestinians have had to support for decades at the hands of Israel and America's totally biased support of the latter, for which it provides the largest foreign aid.

To be clear, Osama's cause is criminal and horrific, while the right of Israel to exist does not come into question; however, if the so called experts in Washington and the US universities have been able to convince the masses in that country that the Palestine cause had no bearing on the formation of Al Qaeda, then this is the fruit of a vapid propaganda to excuse (or at any rate not draw attention to) a foreign policy and ideology that has been anything but just and democratic in the region.

I would only hope that simply because Osama has told us that it always was the case, that this doesn't only reinforce the intransigence and myopia of the more conservatives elements in power at Washington in regards to this problematic (for America and Israel) agenda.

As one step to toward attenuating the radical Islamic cause, and providing Israel with more national security, is resolving the Palestinian problem.

I don't believe any of that..al Qaeda would have a huge presence in Syria, Jordan and Lebanon if the cause of the palestinians were their calling..The US military presence in Saudi Arabia reason is also thin.. He doesn't object to US made EVERYTHING that the Saudis buy for their military. He doesn't mention the Saudis being tricked into thinking Saddam was an imminent threat after his takeover of Kuwait.. Sure the arab world sides with the residents of West Bank and Gaza against Israel, but the gulf state arabs use Palestinians as peasant workers and really have little regard for them or their plight. The arab world's concern for Palestine is much like American republican's opposition to abortion. It is a nice political football.

 

[Astana1]

I had previously mentioned that one contributing factor to Osama's mission against America was the unresolved Palestinian question, to which it was replied that "no, not really...it was rather due to the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, along with other contingent issues". In short, the Palestinian dilemma had nothing to do with it. To which I said that this was not so, citing the case of Sabra e Chatile, etc.

Well in today's papers, at least those to which I have access, we read what a fundamentalist Islamic site has put on the web in the way of Osama's last taped message: "Our attacks against you - threatens the founder of Al Qaeda - will continue as long as your sustaining of Israel continues. America will not be able to dream of its own security, until we live the same sicurity in Palestine."

And again: "There won't be security in America, without security in Palestine. It's unjust that you Americans are in peace while our brothers at Gaza live in desperation. By God's will we will attach you again."

Clearly, thus, the radicalization of Osama's cause has, since the very beginning, in part been connected to the unjustices that the Palestinians have had to support for decades at the hands of Israel and America's totally biased support of the latter, for which it provides the largest foreign aid.

To be clear, Osama's cause is criminal and horrific, while the right of Israel to exist does not come into question; however, if the so called experts in Washington and the US universities have been able to convince the masses in that country that the Palestine cause had no bearing on the formation of Al Qaeda, then this is the fruit of a vapid propaganda to excuse (or at any rate not draw attention to) a foreign policy and ideology that has been anything but just and democratic in the region.

I would only hope that simply because Osama has told us that it always was the case, that this doesn't only reinforce the intransigence and myopia of the more conservatives elements in power at Washington in regards to this problematic (for America and Israel) agenda.

As one step to toward attenuating the radical Islamic cause, and providing Israel with more national security, is resolving the Palestinian problem.

Rhubroma,

Hope you had a good weekend.

I still don't think that there is a convincing case that the Palestinian crisis is the root cause for OBL's radicalization. OBL and co. hate modernity and hate everything that contradicts their vision.

Do you think if somehow a peace was forged between Israel and Palestine that Al Queda would simply call it a career and fade away? I have my doubts about that.

These people are unappeasable. If I were a Palestinian, I wouldn't want AQ on my side. The Palestinians actually have some responsible adults working on their behalf. Now that Hamas has "reconciled" they ought to abandon violence as a means to an end, cut off their ties to the Syrian and Iranian governments and stand on their own merits.

 

[Astana1]

I don't believe any of that..al Qaeda would have a huge presence in Syria, Jordan and Lebanon if the cause of the palestinians were their calling..The US military presence in Saudi Arabia reason is also thin.. He doesn't object to US made EVERYTHING that the Saudis buy for their military. He doesn't mention the Saudis being tricked into thinking Saddam was an imminent threat after his takeover of Kuwait.. Sure the arab world sides with the residents of West Bank and Gaza against Israel, but the gulf state arabs use Palestinians as peasant workers and really have little regard for them or their plight. The arab world's concern for Palestine is much like American republican's opposition to abortion. It is a nice political football.

It took a while. But you actually said something that I agree with. Saying AQ is motivated by the Palestinian question is overly simplistic.

And yes, the Gulf States view the Palestinians as a lesser form of Arab. Oh and by the way, they Arab Gulf States love the fact that Israel is armed to the teeth.

If Israel wants to bomb Iran's nuke sites, the Saudis wouldn't think twice before granting the Israelis flyover priveleges.

 

[VeloCity]

OBL and co. hate modernity and hate everything that contradicts their vision.

Agree that it's more than just Palestine, but I don't agree with this - if anything, what made bin Laden particularly "successful" was his adoption of modern technologies, ie the internet, computers, cell phones, etc. The idea that bin Laden hated the US because of the way we lived is also a myth - he hated the US for (almost) purely political reasons:

"Yet, in all the tens of thousands of words uttered by bin Laden, he was strangely silent about American freedoms and values. He didn’t seem to care very much about the beliefs of the “crusaders.” His focus was invariably on U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East. In a review of 24statements made by bin Laden from 1994 to 2004, political scientist James L. Payne found that 72 percent of the content of the speeches referred to alleged Western or Jewish attacks against Muslims, while only 1 percent criticized American culture or way of life. In a 2004 video, bin Laden directly rebutted Bush’s assertions about al-Qaeda’s motivations for attacking the United States: “Contrary to what Bush says and claims — that we hate your freedom. If that were true, then let him explain why did we not attack Sweden.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...sama-bin-laden/2011/05/05/AFkG1rAG_story.html

Not to suggest that their focus wasn't to instill an Islamic-oriented world, but there's no reason Islam and "modernity" (whatever that is anyway) can't coexist, eg Dubai or Kuwait.

 

[rhubroma]

I don't believe any of that..al Qaeda would have a huge presence in Syria, Jordan and Lebanon if the cause of the palestinians were their calling..The US military presence in Saudi Arabia reason is also thin.. He doesn't object to US made EVERYTHING that the Saudis buy for their military. He doesn't mention the Saudis being tricked into thinking Saddam was an imminent threat after his takeover of Kuwait.. Sure the arab world sides with the residents of West Bank and Gaza against Israel, but the gulf state arabs use Palestinians as peasant workers and really have little regard for them or their plight. The arab world's concern for Palestine is much like American republican's opposition to abortion. It is a nice political football.

They don't have a strong presence in these regions, because they've always had other local resistance groups like Hamas and Hezbollah to make strikes against the Israelis and, since 03, have had their hands rather tied up in other, more pressing matters, such as trying to keep their organization alive.

My point was that it's simply not in keeping with his preachings, and history, that the Palestinian cause wasn't an issue. Nor did I ever say it was the only cause, but one contributing factor. And I realize the case is purely symbolic and instrumental to fomenting Arab hatred toward Israel and the US/West, but often the symbolic elements are most effective, precisely because instrumental to a wider, but not disclosed, cause.

And I still think that bringing justice to the Arabs of Palestine would be a major step to at least put the West on a more credible ground, when trying to arrive at more civil relations with the Muslim world. This won't be enough to crush all resistance to Israel and the West through Islamic terrorism, of course, though it would certainly be a necessary preliminary step.

This has ever been my point, and I still have no reason to think otherwise.

 

[rhubroma]

Rhubroma,

Hope you had a good weekend.

I still don't think that there is a convincing case that the Palestinian crisis is the root cause for OBL's radicalization. OBL and co. hate modernity and hate everything that contradicts their vision.

Do you think if somehow a peace was forged between Israel and Palestine that Al Queda would simply call it a career and fade away? I have my doubts about that.

These people are unappeasable. If I were a Palestinian, I wouldn't want AQ on my side. The Palestinians actually have some responsible adults working on their behalf. Now that Hamas has "reconciled" they ought to abandon violence as a means to an end, cut off their ties to the Syrian and Iranian governments and stand on their own merits.

While I respect your view, if you read my post above I have tried to clarify my position.

Firstly, it's not overly simplistic to claim, as Osama himself has let us know, that the Palestinian cause is one contributing factor to his pathological hatred for any non-Muslim society.

Secondly, that the reality is that the Arab democratic movements from Syria and Egypt to Tunisia, Libya and Morocco, are much more of a threat to his ideology than the Israeli state. And this is precisely why Al Qaeda recently struck tragically at a famous bar in beautiful Marrakech. The local response among many Muslim Moroccans, was to insult Bin Laden and wished him eternal damnation in hell for his great crimes.

Thirdly, that while being a cause it has occupied a purely symbolic and instrumental position in trying (important distinction) to generating a broad Arab-Muslim support base. And to attempt to galvanize a pan-Arab uprising against the Western presence and interference in the Middle East, through playing upon a touchy matter within the Arab streets and urban squares. Or, to put it simply, as a recruiting device. Precisely because of the case's so obvious injustices toward a fellow Arab people, at the hands of Israel with US compliance in terms of diplomatic and military support by way of its re-channeled foreign aid.

Thus I arrive at my conclusion above: namely that resolving this issue would be a positive achievement, not least of which to take away a fire that can be so easily fueled by the fanatics and ideologues and made into a convenient recruiting device within the womb of anti-Western Islamic fundamentalism.

The positive thing, in this story of horror and carnage, was the response to the Marrakech tragedy by the local Arabs, which means that Osama and his supporters loose support from the very people the had counted on by their same criminal acts.

Now if we could somehow see to the Palestinians getting justice, another devastating blow to the terrorists would be made.

 

[redtreviso]

Obviously Al Qaeda for Americans is and will always be associated with 911. Their conflict with the US could be generalized with any number of popular issues. Also obvious though is the Bush connection to extreme purpose of Al Qaeda to close in battle. There has to be some double-cross that the Bush Cheney group represents to Al Qaeda. The Bushes and Cheneys have very important (to them)ties in the arab gulf states to the oil business and finance, yet the foreign policy leaders of the Bush administration were predominately Pro Likud and Jewish..The Pearl Feith Wolfowitz Kristol PNAC bunch were the public face of foreign policy and set policy in spite of the Bush's cozy relationship with Saudi Arabia, bin Laden family etc. This is like a an ironic compensation that only alcoholics easily delve into. To make up for their only real interest in the area, which is money, the Bushes turn foreign policy over to the opposite end of the spectrum. The Bush Cheney families are not part of the "Pro Israel no matter what" mindset except for domestic political support from the Christian evangelicals who are. In other words Feith, Wolfowitz etc were put in charge to comfort Israel about having a pro gulf arab American presidency. Al Qaeda served a better purpose to the Bush administration to look even less loyal to gulf state arabs, if the Wolfowitz Feith thing wasn't convincing enough.

 

[redtreviso]

bin Laden's mountain fortress...pfffft

 

[rhubroma]

Al Qaeda's trademark has been that it was the only terrorist group to have made a strike against America.

This, to me, seems not insignificant, because the previous terrorist acts of Arab/Muslim derivation had been exclusively predicated upon hitting Israel within a sub-regional dispute. Osama tried to make purchase of this issue to further his clientele base, in order to prey upon a general malign discontent toward the West and against the local regimes that were supported by, and did business with, it in regards to an obvious example of Arab oppression and servitude.

In fact terrorism of an Islamic imprint, to promote a universal "Muslim Cause", has been their major claim to fame within the Muslim world, because in reality was both a novelty and universal in the sense that it was designed to encompass all Muslims within an inter-regional empire. In short, to internationalize what had till then been a predominately local sub-regional phenomenon foccused upon a highly exposed drama, which could itself be exploited as one of the many trigger points for what Al Qaeda hoped would result in a pan-Arab rising against the Infidels: and to take the fight to the very heart of the "Great Satan" itself, America.

It was thus a natural corollary of Al Qaeda's breakthrough to make threats against Arab rulers accommodating to Western oil interests and to make terrorist strikes against places within the Muslim world of a symbolic value, where a Western presence was a part of everyday business: from Bali (because Indonesian), to Sharm El Sheik, to Marrakesh; as a sign to the Muslim leadership that only one acceptable and "pure" society would be tolerated, to punish and intimidate in mafia fashion the democrats and also to place fear in Western travelers and businessmen.

Among the most poor and provincial Muslim societies did Al Qaeda provide the only example of someone who fought in their interests, against a backdrop of corrupt and greedy local regimes that only oppressed them while getting rich off the Infidels.

Within this matrix should the problems be seen, so that possible real sollutions might be arrived by.

 

[redtreviso]

Al Qaeda's trademark has been that it was the only terrorist group to have made a strike against America.

This, to me, seems not insignificant, because the previous terrorist acts of Arab/Muslim derivation had been exclusively predicated upon hitting Israel within a sub-regional dispute. Osama tried to make purchase of this issue to further his clientele base, in order to prey upon a general malign discontent toward the West and against the local regimes that were supported by, and did business with, it in regards to an obvious example of Arab oppression and servitude.

In fact terrorism of an Islamic imprint, to promote a universal "Muslim Cause", has been their major claim to fame within the Muslim world, because in reality was both a novelty and universal in the sense that it was designed to encompass all Muslims within a inter-regional empire.

It was thus a natural corollary of Al Qaeda's breakthrough to make threats against Arab rulers accommodating to Western oil interests and to make terrorist strikes against places within the Muslim world of a symbolic value where a Western presence was a part of everyday business: from Bali (because Indonesian), to Sharm El Sheik, to Marrakesh; as a sign to the Muslim leadership that only one acceptable and "pure" society would be tolerated, to punish and intimidate in mafia fashion the democrats and also to place fear in Western travelers.

Among the most poor and provincial Muslim societies did Al Qaeda provide the only example of someone who fought in their interests, against a backdrop of corrupt and greedy local regimes that only oppressed them while getting rich off the Infidels.

Within this matrix should the problems be seen, so that possible real sollutions might be arrived by.

But it is these same corrupt and greedy local regimes who fund them..UAE princes who go falconing with bin laden etc. Dubai bankers with offices next to Haliburton that pay for travel and flight schools..The elite..