Astana1 said:
Not a whole lot to disagree with here.
I've spent some time living in middle east in my military service. In Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. I wouldn't call my time in Iraq as living however. I also traveled as a tourist fairly extensively in Egypt and Jordan. I haven't spent any time in Israel largely because I wouldn't have been allowed reentry into Saudi Arabia had I done so. So while I don't consider myself to be some sort of mideast expert, I do think that I have some firsthand experience to draw from.
First off, I really don't believe that Arabs actually care so much about Palestine as much as they hate Israel and what they have done. Palestinians were barely second rate residents in Saudi Arabia. I dealt with the Saudis daily, and some of them I actually maintain contact with. The Palestinians were one level above the Philpinos and ****stani servants and drivers in that country. I really came away with the impression that the Palestinians were useful only as proxy fighters against Israel. And I also believe that this is a big part of the problem.
So it's a two way street. If we can stop the extremists from fueling the fires on the palestinian end that would be a great step.
Otherwise I think we could totally agree on the counterproductivity of the actions of Israeli hard liners. Although I can't blame them for wanting to defend themselves. We would probably disagree on how they go about doing it, but for the record I am not in favor of new settlements.
Secondly, we have to change our approach in the middle east and I think we are seeing that already. For too long we supported autocrats who were "pro-west" and that really produced a ton of blowback. The autocrats made life intolerable and the extremists used the misery to fan the flames.
The only way we are going to get an enduring shift is by supporting popular rule, even if we don't see eye to eye on most issues, I think the production of extremism and human cruise missiles will decrease along with the misery.
Unfortunately our support is going to be selective, because of the oil issue. There's no clear way around that and it's going to be a double standard that undermines the credibility of any effort.
The Saudis are already ****ed at us for not standing by Mubarak and they seem to be looking to the east to China perhaps to forge a strategic partnership with them. The Chinese don't care about the lack of human rights, and that is more convenient.
Interesting personal details, which you didn't have to disclose, however, this does allow one more perspective on your thoughts.
Firstly I have spent time in North Africa and the Near East on trips and, without a military institution and culture within which I had to operate, has probably provided me with another perspective.
While I'm aware of and agree with you on the existence of let's say less than flattering viewpoints among some of the Arab states regarding the Palestinians, and that their "interest" in them is probably much more as you say as "proxy fighters" against Israel than anything else: this doesn't acquit us from not seeing resolving the Palestinian issue as vital to both regional stability and Israeli national security.
In regards to Israel's right to defend itself, the issue isn't "if" it has that right, but "how" it goes about it and with what measure of force, in light of the contingent circumstances. And, as I see it, the measure of devastating response given by Israel, goes proportionally far beyond the crimes committed against it. Especially in light of the contingent circumstances: namely, the illegal colonies (which, by the way, have never gotten any real press in the US dailies, because goes against the line that must be towed), and also in regards to the Palestinian non-state. When the Palestinians have their own state and the illegally annexed territories are given back to them, then Israel's response to Arab terrorism will be met with much greater approval from the international community and probably even condemned by the democratic Arabs themselves. And it doesn't make matters any easier that the number one state to receive US foreign aid is Israel, in the form of recycled military funds, otherwise there must be a lot of really poor Israelis.
We can't not
not hope for a democratic Middle East, simply because our "friends" the ruthlessly un-democratic Saudi royal family doesn't want to see another Arab autocratic ruler such as Mubarak fall from power. Simply because it fears the weakening of its own political position (which thus makes America tremble too because of the sweet oil deals).
There are risks that need to be taken and we can't be sure how it will turn out, but if we don't make our actions meet what we preach and have our foreign policy be consistent with the democratic principles and right to self-determination that we have even been willing to bring about militarily; then we will continue to be seen as hypocrites on the Arab streets.
Furthermore, we won't have the right to ask them to change if we do not provide a very good example. And this also works toward legitimizing on the MidEast streets, the anti-Israel and anti-Western sentiments preached by the worst regimes and religious fanatics in the region such as Ahmadinejad of Iran.
China will begin to change too when it stops having a market to sell its goods in. But this is a problem of capitalism, that goes beyond the topic of this forum. But wait, or does it?
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