Brabantse Pijl - April 13, 2016, 203k

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Re: Re:

trucido said:
DFA123 said:
trucido said:
It's easy look like a direct competitor to Sagan when all you do is suck wheels until the final dash, but another to do the same when you take the race into your own hands.

Racecraft aside, Sagan is also a far better rouleur, descender/bike handler. The bike handling point in particular as avoiding crashes (Matthews in TdF'15, MSR'16) means you are more likely to be there at the pointy end of a race, and have better recovery periods on descents while still maintaining good speed.

Let's see what Matthews can do in Sagan's situation (in big races) where everyone is riding against him before we tout 'superstar' status.
You've kind of missed the point. I'm not claiming Matthews is as good as Sagan, but that he has the potential to be a similar kind of rider, rather than the fairly negative and conservative rider we see at the moment. I'm lamenting the fact that all he generally does is suck wheels until the finish, when we've seen from his anaerobic power and short TT ability that he has the potential to do so much more.
Actually I didn't miss the point at all, considering you mentioned Matthew's potential for superstar status.
Well yes, potential means that he is not yet at that level. Sagan is a superstar, I think Matthews has the potential to be one as well.

You claimed Matthews is not at the same level as Sagan at the moment - which is pretty obvious to anyone, and wasn't really the point.
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Jspear said:
DFA123 said:
Mr.White said:
Yeah, but you're blaming his team, and I don't.
Fair enough. I don't completely blame his team, but I think Orica are very results focused, which may not be the best environment for a super talent like Matthews. They aren't really bothered about style, or developing a rider, more about winning in whichever way possible.

I just hope they aren't trying to turn him into Gerrans v2. When really, with his talent, he should be looking to emulate riders like Sagan, Kwiatkowski etc.. He's capable of winning races in different ways, but seems to be very conservative in the way he rides. Sometimes you have to be prepared to lose the race in order to win it.
Wow...where have you been. Sometimes they're so patient with their development of a certain rider, I've wondered if they even want to win. Instead of having one big guy in the team guaranteed to win a lot, they've developed some very nice talent in recent years; and they don't over ride them, put to much pressure on them, they support them, give them chances to lead, ect.
That's kind of my point; they don't develop superstars, they develop riders that finish in the top 10 in stage races, or occasionally win the odd one day race. I think Matthews has the potential to be a superstar in the same league as Sagan and Kwiatkowski.
Super stars don't come in packs of a dozen. With Mathews you have a point. With Chaves remember he had a really bad crash a couple years ago. With the Yates brothers and Ewan; they're still very young. They could all become amazing riders. Orica is the best place for them. Anywhere else they would be undervalued and work as domestiques.
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Mr.White said:
Yeah, but you're blaming his team, and I don't.
Fair enough. I don't completely blame his team, but I think Orica are very results focused, which may not be the best environment for a super talent like Matthews. They aren't really bothered about style, or developing a rider, more about winning in whichever way possible.

I just hope they aren't trying to turn him into Gerrans v2. When really, with his talent, he should be looking to emulate riders like Sagan, Kwiatkowski etc.. He's capable of winning races in different ways, but seems to be very conservative in the way he rides. Sometimes you have to be prepared to lose the race in order to win it.

Matthews should have joined Sky and he would still be winless. OGE are good at giving young riders opportunities early in their career.

My criticism of OGE is they are too often inflexible with their race tactics. It doesn't always have to be the protected rider who wins.
 
Re: Re:

yaco said:
DFA123 said:
Mr.White said:
Yeah, but you're blaming his team, and I don't.
Fair enough. I don't completely blame his team, but I think Orica are very results focused, which may not be the best environment for a super talent like Matthews. They aren't really bothered about style, or developing a rider, more about winning in whichever way possible.

I just hope they aren't trying to turn him into Gerrans v2. When really, with his talent, he should be looking to emulate riders like Sagan, Kwiatkowski etc.. He's capable of winning races in different ways, but seems to be very conservative in the way he rides. Sometimes you have to be prepared to lose the race in order to win it.


Matthews should have joined Sky and he would still be winless. OGE are good at giving young riders opportunities early in their career.

My criticism of OGE is they are too often inflexible with their race tactics. It doesn't always have to be the protected rider who wins.
I can think of a couple of riders who have far worse records since joining Orica than before they joined, neither has won anything with Orica despite previous wins
 
Re: Re:

del1962 said:
yaco said:
DFA123 said:
Mr.White said:
Yeah, but you're blaming his team, and I don't.
Fair enough. I don't completely blame his team, but I think Orica are very results focused, which may not be the best environment for a super talent like Matthews. They aren't really bothered about style, or developing a rider, more about winning in whichever way possible.

I just hope they aren't trying to turn him into Gerrans v2. When really, with his talent, he should be looking to emulate riders like Sagan, Kwiatkowski etc.. He's capable of winning races in different ways, but seems to be very conservative in the way he rides. Sometimes you have to be prepared to lose the race in order to win it.
The discussion is about riders in the first four years in the WT




Matthews should have joined Sky and he would still be winless. OGE are good at giving young riders opportunities early in their career.

My criticism of OGE is they are too often inflexible with their race tactics. It doesn't always have to be the protected rider who wins.
I can think of a couple of riders who have far worse records since joining Orica than before they joined, neither has won anything with Orica despite previous wins
 
Re: Re:

del1962 said:
yaco said:
DFA123 said:
Mr.White said:
Yeah, but you're blaming his team, and I don't.
Fair enough. I don't completely blame his team, but I think Orica are very results focused, which may not be the best environment for a super talent like Matthews. They aren't really bothered about style, or developing a rider, more about winning in whichever way possible.

I just hope they aren't trying to turn him into Gerrans v2. When really, with his talent, he should be looking to emulate riders like Sagan, Kwiatkowski etc.. He's capable of winning races in different ways, but seems to be very conservative in the way he rides. Sometimes you have to be prepared to lose the race in order to win it.


Matthews should have joined Sky and he would still be winless. OGE are good at giving young riders opportunities early in their career.

My criticism of OGE is they are too often inflexible with their race tactics. It doesn't always have to be the protected rider who wins.
I can think of a couple of riders who have far worse records since joining Orica than before they joined, neither has won anything with Orica despite previous wins
Santaromita went pretty much to oblivion at Orica.
 
Re: Re:

Hakkapelit said:
del1962 said:
yaco said:
DFA123 said:
Mr.White said:
Yeah, but you're blaming his team, and I don't.
Fair enough. I don't completely blame his team, but I think Orica are very results focused, which may not be the best environment for a super talent like Matthews. They aren't really bothered about style, or developing a rider, more about winning in whichever way possible.

I just hope they aren't trying to turn him into Gerrans v2. When really, with his talent, he should be looking to emulate riders like Sagan, Kwiatkowski etc.. He's capable of winning races in different ways, but seems to be very conservative in the way he rides. Sometimes you have to be prepared to lose the race in order to win it.


Matthews should have joined Sky and he would still be winless. OGE are good at giving young riders opportunities early in their career.

My criticism of OGE is they are too often inflexible with their race tactics. It doesn't always have to be the protected rider who wins.
I can think of a couple of riders who have far worse records since joining Orica than before they joined, neither has won anything with Orica despite previous wins
Santaromita went pretty much to oblivion at Orica.
Another off topic post. We are discussing the development of young riders.
 
Re: Re:

del1962 said:
yaco said:
Hakkapelit said:
del1962 said:
I can think of a couple of riders who have far worse records since joining Orica than before they joined, neither has won anything with Orica despite previous wins
Santaromita went pretty much to oblivion at Orica.
Another off topic post. We are discussing the development of young riders.
I was thinking Magnus Cort and Mezgec
Well see how Cort goes in the next two or 3 years. Mezgec is older so doesn't fit the discussion.
 
Re:

Bushman said:
And he was riding really well at Roubaix before he had to give his wheel to Durbridge. He has shown glimpses of class, also last year. To early to call him out.
So true. He is a classics type rider. Reckon it takes four years to determine the potential and speciality of a rider.
 

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