Brailsford Should Stand Down

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Jul 29, 2012
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Ferminal, it just seems to me, as an outsider, that there is the potential for a huge crack in omerta. Clearly you don't feel this is the case. That's why I am here: to be enlightened...
 
Sep 29, 2012
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dadane said:
Ferminal, it just seems to me, as an outsider, that there is the potential for a huge crack in omerta. Clearly you don't feel this is the case. That's why I am here: to be enlightened...
I don't think if you asked Brailsford how it is that Wiggins won like he did in 2012 that he could give you an answer that stood up to scrutiny. He plain does not know.

Nor do I think he cares, as along as it never gets out.

Wiggins was 4th in 2009 being coached by the exact same team that coached him to his 2012 win, but a measly 24th in 2010. They couldn't tell you either. And they certainly did not expect him to go 4th in 2009.

The guys leaving now, even if they wanted to break omerta about the doping in the team, would have no proof, even if they "know", having been around the block a time or two.

The crack in omerta will come from another rider who feels guilty about destroying the peloton all year - so a younger rider, not a crusty older one.

Or a mechanic or other low-level nobody who overheard / saw something.

In both cases, they risk losing their job, and potentially their livelihood (see Mike Andersen as an example).

The guys going now are omerta devotees / experts and can be trusted to take their knowledge to the grave. Particularly given to break omerta they risk having their own sordid past revealed.
 
May 26, 2009
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dadane said:
OK... Let's say Sky are dirty. Therefore, Omerta is paramount. So, the last thing you would do (especially in light of imminent uncertanties) is sack the very people who could drop you in the doodah big time? 7+2=13 something doesn't add up.
I stated this before: There is a very good chance Sky is clean. However as always, there is no proof that they are clean and there are quite a few problems with the team itself. As a winner of the TdF Wiggins and his team will be put under intense scrutiny and this is indeed a good thing.

But besides the point that Sky is clean or dirty, Dave Brailsford is a liar and that is huge problem in a sport suffering so many problems.

Feigning surprise about Lance is reprehensible, but I can wave that one. But what is absolutely a huge lie is the hiring of Leinders. Knowingly hiring a dirty doctor is a huge red flag... and afterwards enforcing this idiotic zero tolerance scheme is incredibly hypocritical seen in this light.

This is why everyone who thinks that DB should lead the UCI is in complete denial. DB isn't fit to clean up the sport, he's a part of the problem.
 
Velo_vicar said:
But equally it doesn't mean they are. The truth will out. The LA story shows us that even with the best and most aggresive laywers and the most bullying of tactics the truth will come out. Some day a team will say "we are clean" and they will be. It strikes me that it is hard to keep a conspiracy quiet that is dependent on the secrecy of so many people many of whom you will inevitably fall out with. LA's tactics might have delayed the truth but it came out. It is easier to run a clean team than try and conceal a cheating team for ever.
I seriously cannot believe so many people are taking this idiotic view- la fell so everyone will fall.
Another way to look at it is that despite taking few precautions to hide that he was doing and boasting to everyone he met about it and then alienating them so they'd want revenge and siding with dopers and never uttering an anti doping word in his life and breaking records and it still took 13 years and a lot of luck and brave people for him to fall

And he did it for almost a decade.

Even if.it isnt sky, there are definitely riders out there thinking slinking- Christ, you'd need to want to get caught to fall.

And as for people.getting away, well.indurain is only the most successful cyclist in the last 30 years, openly pro doping, has a failed test, dominated for 5 years, 6 including Olympics. And he has not fallen.

So tell me again, you really think that everything always comes out?
 
JimmyFingers said:
Its a good analogy but I do feel like you're not giving Sky credit for trying. If you are doing something illicit and nefarious the last thing you do is alienate and expell those that you are doping it with. If Sky is cuplable of systematic doping in the model of US Postal, as is so fondly espoused in every other post I read about them practically, it is suicidal to be isolating and sacking team members.

However misguided this is, I do think the motivation is the right one, I applaud the fact that dopers that have cheated in the past and not been caught are getting some sort of punishment and I hope it will move Sky forward in a positive manner.

To use your analogy, Sky could be in the back hiding in the corners, not going up to the barman, rather asking someone else to buy their beer for them. Like OPQS, Katusha, Astana, Liquigas and all the other teams that are saying and doing precisely nothing.
Sky is not doping to us postal levels and no.serious " sky is doping" advocate on the board believes it. If you still want to have food fights with those who discredit my side of the argument please leave it out of responses.to.me

And the analogy was correct. Motivation does not.come into it. Its from the pov of the barman (the fans) The document he is looking at could be a fake, which might come as no surprise as teenagers (cough cyclists) are known for trying such schemes. Or the document could be real from a tourist not willing to risk his passport for a night out. Actually lets make it a she as that.might make him look.more favourably on the youth.

Either way the point is we don't know if the individual is a lying 17 year old or an honest 18 year old, but the document itself should not be interpreted as proof,
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Dear Wiggo said:
Sky per se are not dirty. Small, sophisticated pockets of it are. Wiggins and co, as an example.
I see this as back-tracking, now cracks in the theory that there is team-wide doping are starting to show. Who is Wiggins and co exactly? Sky won 50 races last season, which where juiced and which were clean? What percentage of the riders are doping?

Conveient generalisations like that one just throw up more questions. I noticed the theories about Sky twist and turn throughout the season, in reaction to results and form shown, from full-blown US Postal-style EPO use, to drugs to lose weight, to minimal doping and soft-pedalling to the power-meters, to designer drugs that no-one has heard of yet.

Now we have an inner cabal doping in secret? Yet Yates wasn't part of that? Dirty Sean Yates, pals with Armstrong and Motoman, one of the reasons the clinic have laid into Sky again and again, surely he was part of the doping conspiracy?

Face it, the theory is full of holes. At best there be riders doping independently of the team, I can't see systematic doping occurring there. My reasoning? If they were they would have been much cleverer is hiding it, they have made it so easy to accuse them of it all season, and now they are jettisoning people that would be privy to any systematic doping. It doesn't ring true, but I look forward to the explanations
 
Sep 29, 2012
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JimmyFingers said:
I see this as back-tracking, now cracks in the theory that there is team-wide doping are starting to show. Who is Wiggins and co exactly? Sky won 50 races last season, which where juiced and which were clean? What percentage of the riders are doping?
Of course you do. And it's so clearly back tracking that you listed all my posts where I said Sky were doping team-wide, didn't you?

Oh you didn't.

Here's a hint: I have been calling the doping ones the "Tenerife trio" and specifically they are Porte, Rogers and Wiggins.

My narrative has not changed - Wiggins is the ringleader, the other guys are in his clique. Wiggins started it back in 2009 with his unexpected, surprise 4th place. Then perfected it in 2011, before unleashing it in 2012 from Feb to August 2012.

Which races? All the ones those 3 won.
 
Jan 18, 2010
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Dear Wiggo said:
Of course you do. And it's so clearly back tracking that you listed all my posts where I said Sky were doping team-wide, didn't you?

Oh you didn't.

Here's a hint: I have been calling the doping ones the "Tenerife trio" and specifically they are Porte, Rogers and Wiggins.

My narrative has not changed - Wiggins is the ringleader, the other guys are in his clique. Wiggins started it back in 2009 with his unexpected, surprise 4th place. Then perfected it in 2011, before unleashing it in 2012 from Feb to August 2012.

Which races? All the ones those 3 won.
You only named Porte because Hog mentions him and Rogers is too obvious. We need more.
 
Jan 18, 2010
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JimmyFingers said:
I see this as back-tracking, now cracks in the theory that there is team-wide doping are starting to show. Who is Wiggins and co exactly? Sky won 50 races last season, which where juiced and which were clean? What percentage of the riders are doping?

Conveient generalisations like that one just throw up more questions. I noticed the theories about Sky twist and turn throughout the season, in reaction to results and form shown, from full-blown US Postal-style EPO use, to drugs to lose weight, to minimal doping and soft-pedalling to the power-meters, to designer drugs that no-one has heard of yet.

Now we have an inner cabal doping in secret? Yet Yates wasn't part of that? Dirty Sean Yates, pals with Armstrong and Motoman, one of the reasons the clinic have laid into Sky again and again, surely he was part of the doping conspiracy?

Face it, the theory is full of holes. At best there be riders doping independently of the team, I can't see systematic doping occurring there. My reasoning? If they were they would have been much cleverer is hiding it, they have made it so easy to accuse them of it all season, and now they are jettisoning people that would be privy to any systematic doping. It doesn't ring true, but I look forward to the explanations
The guys not worth such a long response, The penny dropped long ago for me that Dearest Wiggo is a bullshitter.
 
JimmyFingers said:
I see this as back-tracking, now cracks in the theory that there is team-wide doping are starting to show. Who is Wiggins and co exactly? Sky won 50 races last season, which where juiced and which were clean? What percentage of the riders are doping?
This is where I call foul. Both sides of the argument are dealing with only public artifacts of whatever is going on inside Sky. If it were the case that this was a spirited, but realistic argument about the matter, then jumping on the first possible hint of inconsistency by one side or the other means there is more going on here than agreeing to disagree.

To add another wrong to the pile, let's revisit some important observations for which there has been no meaningful explanation.

You need to explain how it is Sky was historically (like 100 years of history) dominant with select riders shattering their historic performance norm, then returning to the historic norm. A relatively new behaviour in the peloton that syncs perfectly with the introduction of oxygen vector doping cycles.

There is still no explanation for historical performance either. Thanks to work by other participants we came up with two(?) riders who were good on the track and then got their Grand Tour wins. Altig was one, Merckx maybe the other? We also found out that they were killing it on the track practically the same time they were getting their Grand Tour wins. Effectively, the mere act of showing up on the track assures them a podium.

100 years of human performance history on a bike and Sky redefines it in one season. The last team to do such a thing was US Postal and we know how that ended. Something just doesn't add up.

I'll save you the post, we both agree corellation is not causality. Do I know exactly what's going on inside Sky? No. But SOMETHING that violates the premise of cycling as a sports contest is going on.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Dear Wiggo said:
Of course you do. And it's so clearly back tracking that you listed all my posts where I said Sky were doping team-wide, didn't you?

Oh you didn't.

Here's a hint: I have been calling the doping ones the "Tenerife trio" and specifically they are Porte, Rogers and Wiggins.

My narrative has not changed - Wiggins is the ringleader, the other guys are in his clique. Wiggins started it back in 2009 with his unexpected, surprise 4th place. Then perfected it in 2011, before unleashing it in 2012 from Feb to August 2012.

Which races? All the ones those 3 won.
So you don't think Froome is doping? Are these three doing it independently of the team or are the team management complicit with it? Who is the doctor? Leinders? Ferrari?
 
Jul 17, 2012
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DirtyWorks said:
You need to explain how it is Sky was historically (like 100 years of history) dominant with select riders shattering their historic performance norm, then returning to the historic norm. A relatively new behaviour in the peloton that syncs perfectly with the introduction of oxygen vector doping cycles.
Can you just illustrate this for me? Sky won 50 races all season, with sprinters, puncheurs and the longer stage races. Are we talking about the core of the TdF team, which we know were training hard from November 2011 and were looking to hold near-as-to-possible peak form through the early stage races, into the TdF and maintaining for the Olympics? Wiggins said he couldn't hold his form for the Worlds so opted out of the ITT, and Froome said he was knackered at the Vuelta. But the team were still winning races, the most races of all the pro-tour teams, and also getting the most podium places, so I don't see a peak and a drop during the season, unless you are talking about specific riders. EBH was a beast at the Tour, and came second in the Worlds, so who or what are we talking about?

I think also the peaks of performance followed by dips can be explained by normal fatigue without recourse to drugs.

I just think there needs to be specific accusations levelled, rather than this UK Postal drivel, and accusations of team-wide doping, which Dear Wiggo has referred to.

There have been some very good season performances: EBH, Henao, Uran, Stannard, Froome, Wiggins, Porte, Rogers, Cavendish, who's drity?
 

Dr. Maserati

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JimmyFingers said:
Can you just illustrate this for me? Sky won 50 races all season, with sprinters, puncheurs and the longer stage races. Are we talking about the core of the TdF team, which we know were training hard from November 2011 and were looking to hold near-as-to-possible peak form through the early stage races, into the TdF and maintaining for the Olympics? Wiggins said he couldn't hold his form for the Worlds so opted out of the ITT, and Froome said he was knackered at the Vuelta. But the team were still winning races, the most races of all the pro-tour teams, and also getting the most podium places, so I don't see a peak and a drop during the season, unless you are talking about specific riders. EBH was a beast at the Tour, and came second in the Worlds, so who or what are we talking about?

I think also the peaks of performance followed by dips can be explained by normal fatigue without recourse to drugs.

I just think there needs to be specific accusations levelled, rather than this UK Postal drivel, and accusations of team-wide doping, which Dear Wiggo has referred to.

There have been some very good season performances: EBH, Henao, Uran, Stannard, Froome, Wiggins, Porte, Rogers, Cavendish, who's drity?
Hold on.
You wish for "specifics" and then casually lob in a point that not only Dear Wiggo did not make but indeed denied.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Dr. Maserati said:
Hold on.
You wish for "specifics" and then casually lob in a point that not only Dear Wiggo did not make but indeed denied.
Except I have seen Dear Wiggo refer to Sky as UK Postal on several occasions. So I take it Dear Wiggo is only accusing three Sky riders of doping, and the rest he considers clean? That doesn't sound to me like US Postal at all.

If I have the time or inclination I may go back through DW/The Big Ring's posts and see if his accusations have been limited to the three he claims. If that is the case then he should not infer team-wide doping by referring to Sky as UK Postal. The accusations must become rider-specific, rather than the team as a whole.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Catwhoorg said:
To be fair, Cav has probably had his worst year since 2008.

The team focus/emphasis being not on him did hurt his results in the end.
He still came away with 15 wins all season, leaving only 35 for the rest of the team. He was certainly the most winningest team member, and I imagine also the rider with most podiums.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Posted by Dear Wiggo:

I and a few others have been saying UK Postal are doping as effectively as US Postal, but we get asked - why are they riding slower everywhere?

My theory still is this: they ride so they don't appear unnaturally talented. (Except for Brad's final TT at the Tour). eg: using power meters on the hills.

But when you look at the depth of their results for the year, compared to a doped US Postal (maybe cqranking are missing a tonne of results, or there are a tonne more races now - like Tour of Beijing), that is one damn impressive set of podiums for the year.

Maybe the ability to race consistently high all year has been the doping effect, and it has been offered to everyone on the team - not just the Tour A team. I mean. Some clown was trying to tell me Sky are fading bad at the end of the season...

Boassan Hagen:
22/01/2012 2.WTr [Aus] 1 Tour Down Under, Points classification
13/10/2012 2.WTr [Chn] 1 Tour of Beijing, Points classification

Mark Cavendish:
7/02/2012 2.HCs [Qat] 1 Tour of Qatar, Stage 3 : Dukhan - Al Gharafa Stadium
16/09/2012 2.1s [Gbr] 1 Tour of Britain, Stage 8 : Reigate - Guildford

Froome:
10/06/2012 2.WT [Fra] 4 Critérium du Dauphiné
9/09/2012 GT2 [Esp] 4 Vuelta a España

Henoa:
7/02/2012 1.1 [Esp] 3 Trofeo Deia
29/09/2012 1.WT1 [Ita] 5 Il Lombardia

Nordhaug:
7/02/2012 1.1 [Esp] 1 Trofeo Deia
25/03/2012 2.HC [Fra] 4 Critérium International
9/09/2012 1.WT2 [Can] 1 GP de Montréal

Rogers:
22/01/2012 2.WT [Aus] 4 Tour Down Under
10/06/2012 2.WT [Fra] 2 Critérium du Dauphiné
26/08/2012 2.HC [Den] 9 Post Danmark Rundt - Tour of Denmark

Uran:
25/03/2012 2.WT [Esp] 5 Volta a Catalunya
29/09/2012 1.WT1 [Ita] 3 Il Lombardia
27/09/2012 1.HC [Ita] 1 Gran Piemonte

Wiggins:
19/02/2012 2.1 [Por] 3 Volta ao Algarve
11/03/2012 2.WT [Fra] 1 Paris - Nice
29/04/2012 2.WT [Sui] 1 Tour de Romandie
10/06/2012 2.WT [Fra] 1 Critérium du Dauphiné
22/07/2012 GT1 [Fra] 1 Tour de France
1/08/2012 WCTT [Gbr] 1 Olympic Games (London) - I.T.T.
Doesn't look like his accusations are limited to the 'Tenerife 3', does it Maserati?
 

Dr. Maserati

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JimmyFingers said:
Except I have seen Dear Wiggo refer to Sky as UK Postal on several occasions. So I take it Dear Wiggo is only accusing three Sky riders of doping, and the rest he considers clean? That doesn't sound to me like US Postal at all.

If I have the time or inclination I may go back through DW/The Big Ring's posts and see if his accusations have been limited to the three he claims. If that is the case then he should not infer team-wide doping by referring to Sky as UK Postal. The accusations must become rider-specific, rather than the team as a whole.
Wait a second - you take it, that's your interpretation.
Don't blame others because you got it wrong. DW made their position clear - no need to continue to misrepresent what they say.
I am sure if you want clarification, they (and anyone else) would be prepared to give it.

As for UK Postal - well Brad was the first to bring the parallel between Sky & Postal, of course they soon didn't like when the obvious parallel was drawn.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Posted by Dear Wiggo:

Seems more appropriate here. USPS were doped to the gills in 2003, no question.

Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki
what are you talking about? sky faded hard in the end of this season. froome is an excellent example. how do you compare this to us epostal and how they after an incredible tour would still thrash the vuelta?
Yeah all those 1 times they thrashed the Vuelta, while juiced to the gills. In 2003.

2003 USPS victories:
28/09/2003 [ESP] HERAS HERNANDEZ Roberto GT [Esp] Vuelta a España
27/09/2003 [ESP] HERAS HERNANDEZ Roberto GTs [Esp] Vuelta a España, Stage 20 : San Lorenzo de El Escorial - Alto de Abantos I.T.T.
23/08/2003 [RUS] EKIMOV Viatcheslav 2.1 [Ned] Ronde van Nederland
21/08/2003 [RUS] EKIMOV Viatcheslav 2.1s [Ned] Ronde van Nederland, Stage 4 : Nordhorn - Denekamp I.T.T.
15/08/2003 [NED] VAN HEESWIJK Max 2.3s [Fra] Tour de l'Ain, Stage 4 : Bellegarde-sur-Valserine - Culoz
27/07/2003 [USA] ARMSTRONG Lance GT [Fra] Tour de France
21/07/2003 [USA] ARMSTRONG Lance GTs [Fra] Tour de France, Stage 15 : Bagnères-de-Bigorre - Luz-Ardiden
9/07/2003 [Usa] US Postal Service presented by Berry Floor GTs [Fra] Tour de France, Stage 4 : Joinville - Saint-Dizier T.T.T.
29/06/2003 [LUX] JOACHIM Benoît NC4 [Lux] National Championships Luxembourg R.R.
26/06/2003 [NOR] KJAERGAARD Steffen NCT3 [Nor] National Championships Norway (Sandnes) I.T.T.
15/06/2003 [USA] ARMSTRONG Lance 2.HC [Fra] Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
11/06/2003 [USA] ARMSTRONG Lance 2.HCs [Fra] Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré, Stage 3 : Saint-Paul-en-Jarez - Saint-Héand I.T.T.
8/03/2003 [COL] PEÑA GRISALES Victor Hugo 2.3s [Esp] Vuelta a Murcia - Costa Calida, Stage 4 : Cartagena - Alto de La Santa
2012 Team Sky victories:

27/09/2012 [COL] URAN URAN Rigoberto 1.HC [Ita] Gran Piemonte
16/09/2012 [GBR] CAVENDISH Mark 2.1s [Gbr] Tour of Britain, Stage 8 : Reigate - Guildford
12/09/2012 [GBR] CAVENDISH Mark 2.1s [Gbr] Tour of Britain, Stage 4 : Carlisle - Blackpool
11/09/2012 [GBR] CAVENDISH Mark 2.1s [Gbr] Tour of Britain, Stage 3 : Jedburgh - Dumfries
9/09/2012 [NOR] NORDHAUG Lars Petter 1.WT2 [Can] GP de Montréal
9/09/2012 [GBR] ROWE Luke 2.1s [Gbr] Tour of Britain, Stage 1 : Ipswich - Norfolk
2/09/2012 [GBR] DOWSETT Alex NCT2 [Gbr] National Championships Great Britain (Hose) I.T.T.
26/08/2012 [GBR] CAVENDISH Mark 2.HCs [Den] Post Danmark Rundt - Tour of Denmark, Stage 6 : Slagelse - Frederiksberg
26/08/2012 [NOR] BOASSON HAGEN Edvald 1.WT2 [Fra] GP Ouest France - Plouay
24/08/2012 [NOR] NORDHAUG Lars Petter 2.HCs [Den] Post Danmark Rundt - Tour of Denmark, Stage 3 : Silkeborg - Vejle
1/08/2012 [GBR] WIGGINS Bradley WCTT [Gbr] Olympic Games (London) - I.T.T.
22/07/2012 [GBR] WIGGINS Bradley GT1 [Fra] Tour de France
22/07/2012 [GBR] CAVENDISH Mark GT1s [Fra] Tour de France, Stage 20 : Rambouillet - Paris
21/07/2012 [GBR] WIGGINS Bradley GT1s [Fra] Tour de France, Stage 19 : Bonneval - Chartres I.T.T.
20/07/2012 [GBR] CAVENDISH Mark GT1s [Fra] Tour de France, Stage 18 : Blagnac - Brive-la-Gaillarde
14/07/2012 [GBR] SWIFT Ben 2.WTs [Pol] Tour de Pologne, Stage 5 : Rabka Zdroj - Zakopane
11/07/2012 [GBR] SWIFT Ben 2.WTs [Pol] Tour de Pologne, Stage 2 : Walbrzych - Opole
9/07/2012 [GBR] WIGGINS Bradley GT1s [Fra] Tour de France, Stage 9 : Arc-et-Senans - Besançon I.T.T.
7/07/2012 [GBR] FROOME Chris GT1s [Fra] Tour de France, Stage 7 : Tomblaine - La Planche des Belles Filles
2/07/2012 [GBR] CAVENDISH Mark GT1s [Fra] Tour de France, Stage 2 : Visé (Bel) - Tournai (Bel)
24/06/2012 [NOR] BOASSON HAGEN Edvald NC3 [Nor] National Championships Norway (Asane) R.R.
24/06/2012 [GBR] STANNARD Ian NC2 [Gbr] National Championships Great Britain (Ampleforth) R.R.
17/06/2012 [GBR] CAVENDISH Mark 2.1 [Ned] Ster ZLM Tour
10/06/2012 [GBR] WIGGINS Bradley 2.WT [Fra] Critérium du Dauphiné
7/06/2012 [GBR] WIGGINS Bradley 2.WTs [Fra] Critérium du Dauphiné, Stage 4 : Villié-Morgon - Bourg-en-Bresse I.T.T.
6/06/2012 [NOR] BOASSON HAGEN Edvald 2.WTs [Fra] Critérium du Dauphiné, Stage 3 : Givors - La Clayette
27/05/2012 [AUS] ROGERS Michael 2.HC [Ger] Bayern-Rundfahrt
26/05/2012 [AUS] ROGERS Michael 2.HCs [Ger] Bayern-Rundfahrt, Stage 4 : Feuchtwangen - Feuchtwangen I.T.T.
24/05/2012 [AUS] ROGERS Michael 2.HCs [Ger] Bayern-Rundfahrt, Stage 2 : Penzberg - Kempten
20/05/2012 [NOR] BOASSON HAGEN Edvald 2.1 [Nor] Tour of Norway
19/05/2012 [NOR] BOASSON HAGEN Edvald 2.1s [Nor] Tour of Norway, Stage 4 : Hamar - Lillehammer
18/05/2012 [GBR] CAVENDISH Mark GT2s [Ita] Giro d'Italia, Stage 13 : Savona - Cervere
10/05/2012 [GBR] CAVENDISH Mark GT2s [Ita] Giro d'Italia, Stage 5 : Modena - Fano
6/05/2012 [GBR] CAVENDISH Mark GT2s [Ita] Giro d'Italia, Stage 2 : Herning - Herning
29/04/2012 [GBR] WIGGINS Bradley 2.WT [Sui] Tour de Romandie
29/04/2012 [GBR] WIGGINS Bradley 2.WTs [Sui] Tour de Romandie, Stage 5 : Crans-Montana - Crans-Montana I.T.T.
25/04/2012 [GBR] WIGGINS Bradley 2.WTs [Sui] Tour de Romandie, Stage 1 : Morges - La Chaux-de-Fonds
24/04/2012 [GBR] THOMAS Geraint 2.WTs [Sui] Tour de Romandie, Prologue : Lausanne I.T.T.
22/03/2012 [COL] URAN URAN Rigoberto 2.WTs [Esp] Volta a Catalunya, Stage 4 : Tremp - Asco
11/03/2012 [GBR] WIGGINS Bradley 2.WT [Fra] Paris - Nice
11/03/2012 [GBR] WIGGINS Bradley 2.WTs [Fra] Paris - Nice, Stage 8 : Nice - Col d'Eze I.T.T.
9/03/2012 [NOR] BOASSON HAGEN Edvald 2.WTs [Ita] Tirreno - Adriatico, Stage 3 : Indicatore - Terni
8/03/2012 [GBR] CAVENDISH Mark 2.WTs [Ita] Tirreno - Adriatico, Stage 2 : San Vincenzo - Indicatore
26/02/2012 [GBR] CAVENDISH Mark 1.1 [Bel] Kuurne - Brussel - Kuurne
19/02/2012 [AUS] PORTE Richie 2.1 [Por] Volta ao Algarve
19/02/2012 [GBR] WIGGINS Bradley 2.1s [Por] Volta ao Algarve, Stage 5 : Lagoa - Portimao I.T.T.
17/02/2012 [AUS] PORTE Richie 2.1s [Por] Volta ao Algarve, Stage 3 : Castro Marim - Loule/Alto do Malhao
16/02/2012 [NOR] BOASSON HAGEN Edvald 2.1s [Por] Volta ao Algarve, Stage 2 : Faro - Lagoa
9/02/2012 [GBR] CAVENDISH Mark 2.HCs [Qat] Tour of Qatar, Stage 5 : Camel Race Track - Al Khor Corniche
7/02/2012 [GBR] CAVENDISH Mark 2.HCs [Qat] Tour of Qatar, Stage 3 : Dukhan - Al Gharafa Stadium
7/02/2012 [NOR] NORDHAUG Lars Petter 1.1 [Esp] Trofeo Deia
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Dr. Maserati said:
Wait a second - you take it, that's your interpretation.
Don't blame others because you got it wrong. DW made their position clear - no need to continue to misrepresent what they say.
I am sure if you want clarification, they (and anyone else) would be prepared to give it.

As for UK Postal - well Brad was the first to bring the parallel between Sky & Postal, of course they soon didn't like when the obvious parallel was drawn.
Except in this case you have got it wrong
 
Jul 17, 2012
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I could go digging for other examples, and there are further comparisons made between Sky and Postal's results, but I think that makes it clear he was implicating Sky in general, not just 3 riders
 

Dr. Maserati

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JimmyFingers said:
I could go digging for other examples, and there are further comparisons made between Sky and Postal's results, but I think that makes it clear he was implicating Sky in general, not just 3 riders
Please keep digging.
Find a quote where they say all the team is doping, then I might agree that they (as you suggest) "backtracked".
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Dr. Maserati said:
Wait a second - you take it, that's your interpretation.
Don't blame others because you got it wrong. DW made their position clear - no need to continue to misrepresent what they say.
I am sure if you want clarification, they (and anyone else) would be prepared to give it.

As for UK Postal - well Brad was the first to bring the parallel between Sky & Postal, of course they soon didn't like when the obvious parallel was drawn.
I believe I was asking for clarification, both from DW and DirtyWorks. Strange you missed that bit
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Dr. Maserati said:
Please keep digging.
Find a quote where they say all the team is doping, then I might agree that they (as you suggest) "backtracked".
I'm not sure whether you are trying to be disingenuous, but how about this, already quoted:

I and a few others have been saying UK Postal are doping as effectively as US Postal
Followed by a list of Sky's wins and podium places, comparing them to the US Postal team of 2003.

My theory still is this: they ride so they don't appear unnaturally talented. (Except for Brad's final TT at the Tour). eg: using power meters on the hills.

But when you look at the depth of their results for the year, compared to a doped US Postal (maybe cqranking are missing a tonne of results, or there are a tonne more races now - like Tour of Beijing), that is one damn impressive set of podiums for the year.

Maybe the ability to race consistently high all year has been the doping effect, and it has been offered to everyone on the team - not just the Tour A team.
I've already quoted this, but you seem disinclined to read it

Now this:

Sky per se are not dirty. Small, sophisticated pockets of it are. Wiggins and co, as an example.
 

Dr. Maserati

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JimmyFingers said:
I believe I was asking for clarification, both from DW and DirtyWorks. Strange you missed that bit
No, I spotted it before your flood of posts that followed.

As for " the quote" - if you snip off the "maybe" at the front you might have something - but as its clearly there then you don't
 

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