Breaking news: "Armstrong Brushes Aside Contador Taunt"

[Publicus]

do you have a point to that?

I bolded the operative word in the sentence you quoted. Re-read your sentence and take note of the bolded word. Something should click inside of your brain that helps you understand why that sentence is not rock-solid evidence of your claim. Or not.

EDIT: But let's say for the sake of argument that the pay issues were real. Doesn't that bolster the point that these riders were leaving Astana to Radio Shack, in large part, for stability? Heck, even AC didn't want to be there, and the Kazakh's were doing everything they could to prevent him from leaving. So why would any of the riders, after waiting two months or so to get paid, given the chance to find a more stable home, actually stay at Astana? It seems logical that they wouldn't under those circumstances.

 

[richwagmn]

Why take Lance back? I'm sorry, that's a really stupid question.
"surely" you don't know that surely JB knew there would be friction.
The way I see it, he "surely" thought that AC was a mature professional which he turned out not to be.

AC is still the obvious favorite in the coming tour but I don't think there's anything certain about him winning considering the conventional wisdom on the importance of team on winning the tour.

Lance clearly has better support around him.

If Lance was the bad guy in all this why didn't any of the riders stay with Alberto? Why do does Lance still command the respect of the vast majority of the best riders in the sport?

AC wasn't mature? In what way? An immature rider would have cracked under all the **** LA and JB were dishing out. AC handled it with aplomb. Even LA admits this. What LA found out is that AC is mentally as tough as they come. AC knew exactly what he was up against.

Do tell how Lance's superior supprt enables him to drop either Schleck or Contador in the mountains? Do you really believe anyone on RadioShack can ride either of those two off of LA's wheels? I'd really love to see LA be able to launch any attack that AC and AS can't cover.

 

[richwagmn]

Cycling forums are where the cranks are. So much so that tour riders joke about it.

Far more interesting than a core group of cranks on this forum.

Seriously? Pro riders spend their time reading CyclingNews forums? Really?

Also, if you're so offended by the CN forum contributers, maybe the Livestrong forums would be more to your liking? I hear a few of the members have even advanced to using punctuation in their posts.

 

[Anonymous]

I want to jump in despite all the anger, but I'm at bit of a disadvantage because of my ignore list and having to use quoted excerpts. A week before the Giro, Alberto was out on a beach. Bruyneel called his cell and said they'd gotten an invite to the race. Bruyneel said that Contador didn't want to do it but that he convinced him to come and at least start the race and see how it went.

Last year at the Giro when the guys became Team Faded, Lance was a big part of it even though he had no contract or salary. He said that he was standing up for his personal soigneur Ryszard, who I found out at that moment was an Astana employee, even though he went wherever Lance did since the comeback was announced.

I've never given thought to a pre-Giro agenda, but LA and JB totally wanted to take over Astana's license before the Tour, and Contador was savvy enough to have a contingency plan, (I believe with Garmin if I remember right - I was surprised by that as well), so that he wouldn't miss the Tour a fourth time (once with his old team from Operacion Puerto, once with his head surgery, and once with Astana.

I'll leave it there. Except to say that coming to a cycling forum with an attitude that you're superior to the people you'll find there is for what? Lance is sending missionaries to us godforsaken to bring us the word? You seemed to be quoting chapter and verse there in the excerpts.

This thread started because Alberto allegedly said that Lance made him popular, which is a pretty innocent statement if true. If there were more viewers because of what went on, more people saw Contador than otherwise would have, and some of them liked what they saw. Which means he was more popular. Then the "brushing aside" went on and on and on.

 

[BroDeal]

So, your saying UCI was wrong? The Astana backers were paid up all along. That's really your position despite all the press on it. You're claiming that here, on the forum with a long history of being Lance hating cranks, you've uncovered a fraud perpetrated by Lance and JB to claim the team was owed money when in fact (although there is no fact) they had not.

ROTFL. I just love this. We get these salad tossers who are angry as hell that not everyone buys into the Armstrong fraud and some dare to talk about it. It just burns them up. I think it comes from deep seated knowledge that Armstrong's career is a lie, and they are afraid that if others talk about it then they themselves might have to eventually accept the truth.

They cannot even think for themselves. Their "thinking" comes from press releases by a man who lives a lie every day of his life. Armstrong and Bruyneel said the riders were not paid, so it must be true. A reasonable person might question this since no rider has said they were not paid and many, including Horner, have said they never had paycheck problems. Of course, that line of logic would require independent thought.

 

[theyoungest]

Loyalty is bought not earned you say. Really, that's what you say. I just want to make sure you read it back to yourself as you own words.

Well, I'd say Team Radioshack is the living example of this statement. It's not outrageous at all.

 

[Angliru]

Astana almost lost it's license over not paying the team. The handwriting was on the wall from that point on. If the people that are running Astan now were slow on the uptake it's shame on them.

...and you don't think this may have had some influence on the decisions of the former Astana riders that defected to Shack? More so than your interpretation of Contador being a "bad teammate"?

 

[Mellow Velo]

The Spanish contingent? like Zubeldia who was the only other Spanish rider on the tour team, that Abandoned Alberto's team for Radio Shack? That Spanish contingent? You probably mean the Spanish contingent that Radio Shack didn't want.

That is exactly what I mean. well done and thank you for endorsing my point.

So, your saying UCI was wrong? The Astana backers were paid up all along. That's really your position despite all the press on it.

That is your claim?

No, I have no evidence of this, but I believe it a plausible, if unprovable theory.
The wages were paid, not directly by the Kazakh's but Olympus Sarl, Bruyneel's company.
We all know that the business world is not averse to the odd piece of trickery.
This is hypothetical, I admit.
However, it does highlight the fact that the camp was split, in early May, never mind during the Tour.

Loyalty is bought not earned you say. Really, that's what you say. I just want to make sure you read it back to yourself as you own words.

Actually, Lance couldn't be one of the non paid riders during that time because he didn't draw a salary from the team at all.

Once again, you bring evidence to the table, to support my theory.
Or are you saying Lance was a loyal supporter of Contador?

 

[Señor_Contador]

That does not mean he got paid when he was supposed to.

I don't know what the specifics are, but that is just an example of how no pay-gate was used an abused to the benefit of someone else's master plan. By this I'm not saying rider x did not get paid amount y at time z, I am informing you that the majority of riders got paid what was specified in their contracts.

You may argue that that is the case because of the pressure put on the team by western media outlets, and that would be a valid argument. But I'm not going in that direction. I'm talking about this nasty habit, on the part of some western media outlets, of taking something Lance Armstrong says and passing it along as fact, not even bothering to check with the other side of the argument, namely the Astana team sponsors.

And, again, by this I'm not saying that that there may have been some truth to the no pay-gate scandal. Thus us, the interested idiots, are forced to put the pieces of the puzzle together with little or no information available. In my case, since I do not trusth anything LA or JB say, I opine that these two crooks were cooking something up by the time AC won the Giro.

You have to understand, JB and LA are, above all, businessmen and they will jump at the first opportunity that comes around. I guarantee you, and I'd bet my left testicle on this, that LA's ego detests, HATES, the idea of anyone challenging his record. So we have what has happened to Astana during the past 2 years: LA's ego trip.

Look, Astana almost lost his license over it.
"The UCI had threatened to rescind the team's ProTour license after the team's wages were reportedly not paid for two months."

Yes, you miss the "reportedly". I mean, you have to understand that western media outlets are not in the business of "reporting" or "informing". The "reportedly" is the layman's equivalent of "I heard from my dentist's friend's granfather's personal trainer's mother-in-law's gardener"... Do you see what I'm trying to get at?

Now you cranks want to claim Johan and Lance conspired to make it all up? how frikin' idiotic.

Idiotic? Really? You mean LA doesn't have a foundation and sponsors, he most likely met during his numerous black-tie affairs, that were eager to finance his comeback and show the whole wide world the "superiority" of American sportmanship? Do you mean JB did not want to run to the Money Man (LA) when he heard the "I will only work with Johan Bruyneel" even though he had a contract with Astana (which most likely is the turning point when the Kazhaks smelled the shít piling up and decided to hold back on the moola)?

Saying Contador became the cyclist of the moment in 09, or even 08 sounds pretty stupid considering he'd already won the tour de Frikin' France by then. And more stupid to think they'd want to get rid of him even last year when he was clearly the favorite to win tour.

No, I am saying that The Plan was under way by the time AC won the Giro: They were trying to tire AC out of Astana. I mean, you don't call your biggest star from vacation and make him do the Giro! You nurture the guy. You make sure he does only enough races to keep or gain form but not to get burned out, especially knowing Alberto wanted the Vuelta and not the Giro.

But... Alberto turned out to be tougher than expected and he became a liability to The Plan, which explains the subsequent personal attacks from Johan Bruyneel and even Lance Armstrong himself. I sincerely DOUBT that LA wanted AC at Radio Shak. The Texan's ego wouldn't have allowed it. I mean, even after AC won the Tour, the Vuelta and the Giro JB was still saying he wasn't sure (about AC). Can you friggin believe it??? Think about it, what would lead a person to say something like that when your guy has just won the three toughest races in the world in a period of a little over 1 year?? You're not sure?? You're a fúcking idiot Johan.

He was thrilled to get the chance to be in the Giro that year. They all were. A last minute invite was far better than no invite at all. You see, (sarcasm on) the Giro d'Italia is what the call a Grand tour event. It's one of three pillars of the sport. (sarcasm off)

Yes, Johan wanted to be there, but make no mistake, Alberto DID NOT want to do the Giro that year. The Spaniard was being set up to fail.

 

[D Avoid]

There is a great spoonerism in the words "Contadors Taunt".You need an Iberian accent to make it smooth though.

 

[BroDeal]

There is a great spoonerism in the words "Contadors Taunt".You need an Iberian accent to make it smooth though.

It could be worse. The thread title could have been "Armstrong Brushes Aside Contador's Taint."

 

[bianchigirl]

It's more than plausible that it was Olympus SARL that withheld wages - Horner stated categorically that he had always been paid, yet at the same time the Giro team weren't receiving their wages and were staging a very public protest as a result?

 

[D Avoid]

It could be worse. The thread title could have been "Armstrong Brushes Aside Contador's Taint."

I couldn't help laughing as I read it, that must be because I get it subliminally cos in reality the joke is bypassing at speed, such so that my permanent smile is altering the shape of my handel bar mousetache.

 

[Bike Boy]

And, again, by this I'm not saying that that there may have been some truth to the no pay-gate scandal. Thus us, the interested idiots, are forced to put the pieces of the puzzle together with little or no information available. In my case, since I do not trusth anything LA or JB say, I opine that these two crooks were cooking something up by the time AC won the Giro.

You have to understand, JB and LA are, above all, businessmen and they will jump at the first opportunity that comes around. I guarantee you, and I'd bet my left testicle on this, that LA's ego detests, HATES, the idea of anyone challenging his record. So we have what has happened to Astana during the past 2 years: LA's ego trip.

Then how can you be sure that you opinion wont be coloured?
It seems like this debate is more about perspective than facts.

People tend to misunderstand me so I have to say that I disagree with Carboncrank on many counts. I do however understand his frustration. It's like, there is no room for those of us who admire Armstrong.

I'm not in here, to be a part of any rivalry between Contador and Armstrong, since I admire both riders, but anytime I Question your critisism of the texan, it's like people perceive it as if I'm here to start a fight.

We all have different perspective that's fair. But If I ask people to back up strong claims against Armstrong with facts, it's very rare I get a serious respond.
That kind of behaviour does not help your cause you know...

Anyway Armstrong can be a real jerk, I'm not denying that, and many of you guys who hate Armstrong have a lot of good arguments in that regard.
I respect that, hell, I have even learned something from you.
But because there is so many of you, it's like you have created your own little world, where Contador is a saint and Armstrong is the devil himself.
I don't think nice guys win the tour. This is not tennis, where you have an incredibly admirable and sympathetic star like Federer.
but thats beside my point. I just think it would be helpfull for you to reconsider your perspective a little bit.

And maybe I have to state explicitly, that this last comment about Contador not always being a nice guy, was not meant as an attack on Contador (People tend to read what ever they want into my comments sometimes, so I have to be carefull.) rather a glimpse of my perspective on procycling.

 

[Anonymous]

Anyway Armstrong can be a real jerk, I'm not denying that, and many of you guys who hate Armstrong have a lot of good arguments in that regard.
I respect that, hell, I have even learned something from you.
But because there is so many of you, it's like you have created your own little world, where Contador is a saint and Armstrong is the devil himself.
I don't think nice guys win the tour. This is not tennis, where you have an incredibly admirable and sympathetic star like Federer.
but thats beside my point. I just think it would be helpfull for you to reconsider your perspective a little bit.

Just on this point, you don't need to be a jerk to win the tour and nice guys do win/have won it. It's just LA's opinion that you can't be a nice guy, no doubt partially to excuse (even to himself) how he behaves sometimes. Miguel Indurain - by all accounts one of the nicest guys you could wish to meet, and he wasn't exactly a chipper.

In the last 25 years or so, the majority have been won by seemingly nice guys. In fact, in recent history the only winner you could say was as big a jerk as LA can be was Hinault... which is ironic considering how much they like each other. Maybe they're too similar for their own liking.

 

[Publicus]

Then how can you be sure that you opinion wont be coloured?
It seems like this debate is more about perspective than facts.

People tend to misunderstand me so I have to say that I disagree with Carboncrank on many counts. I do however understand his frustration. It's like, there is no room for those of us who admire Armstrong.

I'm not in here, to be a part of any rivalry between Contador and Armstrong, since I admire both riders, but anytime I Question your critisism of the texan, it's like people perceive it as if I'm here to start a fight.

We all have different perspective that's fair. But If I ask people to back up strong claims against Armstrong with facts, it's very rare I get a serious respond.
That kind of behaviour does not help your cause you know...

Anyway Armstrong can be a real jerk, I'm not denying that, and many of you guys who hate Armstrong have a lot of good arguments in that regard.
I respect that, hell, I have even learned something from you.
But because there is so many of you, it's like you have created your own little world, where Contador is a saint and Armstrong is the devil himself.
I don't think nice guys win the tour. This is not tennis, where you have an incredibly admirable and sympathetic star like Federer.
but thats beside my point. I just think it would be helpfull for you to reconsider your perspective a little bit.

And maybe I have to state explicitly, that this last comment about Contador not always being a nice guy, was not meant as an attack on Contador (People tend to read what ever they want into my comments sometimes, so I have to be carefull.) rather a glimpse of my perspective on procycling.

What questions have you asked about Armstrong that haven't been answered? I'm curious, because this accusations is thrown around quite a bit by Armstrong fans/admirers but they are usually at a loss to offer up a concrete example. Thanks in advance.

 

[Bike Boy]

What questions have you asked about Armstrong that haven't been answered? I'm curious, because this accusations is thrown around quite a bit by Armstrong fans/admirers but they are usually at a loss to offer up a concrete example. Thanks in advance.

This is what I'm talking about:

I would like to get some facts though. Many members of this forum tend to assume that the money goes down into his pocket. But who really knows what happens to the money?

I mean who are we to judge Armstrong if it turns out he will hand over the money to some kind of charity?
Can anyone provide me with some kind of proof that will justify these claims against Armstrong?

Basically I would like to know what this is based on besides the fact that it seems suspicious. I mean all the speculations aside what can we conclude.

From this thread:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=5684&page=4

All the money might not go into Armstrong's pocket. Some of it will probably find its way into Dr. Ferrari's pocket, and a little will also end up in Pat McQuaid's pocket.

Facts please!!! impressive research right there. Thanks.

The same thread:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=5684&page=6

Remember I don't deny that all the suspicions could be true. But it concerns me that very few people raise their eyebrows, then claims are posted based on speculation.

In generel the members of this forum are doing a good job in this regard. But still I find that the Armstrong haters doesn't always apply this high standard.

 

[Carboncrank]

AC wasn't mature? In what way? An immature rider would have cracked under all the **** LA and JB were dishing out. AC handled it with aplomb. Even LA admits this. What LA found out is that AC is mentally as tough as they come. AC knew exactly what he was up against.

Do tell how Lance's superior supprt enables him to drop either Schleck or Contador in the mountains? Do you really believe anyone on RadioShack can ride either of those two off of LA's wheels? I'd really love to see LA be able to launch any attack that AC and AS can't cover.

You talk as though you don't believe there's a mental aspect to this sport.

Schleck is on a killer team. Radio Shack is the deepest team in the sport. Astana is very very vulnerable and Vino could be more of a distraction than Lance ever was. Team problems are the greatest threat to Alberto winning this year. I don't know if he could have got out of his Astana contract if he wanted to or not. Obviously he thinks he can win with this bunch but personally, I don't think he's the brightest bulb on the tree.
Alberto better be stronger than he was last year because Lance certainly will be.

As recently as Jan 15th Lance has said; "I wouldn't be sitting here today if I didn't think I can win the Tour de France"

I saw team tactics of Lance and JB break a lot of great riders before. It's no certain thing that they can do it again but I sure wouldn't say they can't.

 

[Ferminal]

You talk as though you don't believe there's a mental aspect to this sport.

Schleck is on a killer team. Radio Shack is the deepest team in the sport. Astana is very very vulnerable and Vino could be more of a distraction than Lance ever was. Team problems are the greatest threat to Alberto winning this year. I don't know if he could have got out of his Astana contract if he wanted to or not. Obviously he thinks he can win with this bunch but personally, I don't think he's the brightest bulb on the tree.
Alberto better be stronger than he was last year because Lance certainly will be.

As recently as Jan 15th Lance has said; "I wouldn't be sitting here today if I didn't think I can win the Tour de France"

I saw team tactics of Lance and JB break a lot of great riders before. It's no certain thing that they can do it again but I sure wouldn't say they can't.

I'm not sure you can argue that Astana 2010 is going to provide less support than Astana 2009... The only thing 2009 did for him was the TTT but there isn't one this year.

 

[Publicus]

You talk as though you don't believe there's a mental aspect to this sport.

Schleck is on a killer team. Radio Shack is the deepest team in the sport. Astana is very very vulnerable and Vino could be more of a distraction than Lance ever was. Team problems are the greatest threat to Alberto winning this year. I don't know if he could have got out of his Astana contract if he wanted to or not. Obviously he thinks he can win with this bunch but personally, I don't think he's the brightest bulb on the tree.
Alberto better be stronger than he was last year because Lance certainly will be.

As recently as Jan 15th Lance has said; "I wouldn't be sitting here today if I didn't think I can win the Tour de France"

I saw team tactics of Lance and JB break a lot of great riders before. It's no certain thing that they can do it again but I sure wouldn't say they can't.

Alberto already said that he's compared the data from last year and he's already stronger (based on power meter readings, not conjecture).

 

[Carboncrank]

I don't know what the specifics are, but that is just an example of how no pay-gate was used an abused to the benefit of someone else's master plan. By this I'm not saying rider x did not get paid amount y at time z, I am informing you that the majority of riders got paid what was specified in their contracts.

I think in the end they all got paid. UCI saw to that. That's what the escrow issue is all about as some of the older fans can attest to. The pressure didn't come from the press, it came from UCI. Put the money in escrow or lose your license. The word "reportedly" in the quote I used evidently meant as reported by UCI not some unverified source.

And, again, by this I'm not saying that that there may have been some truth to the no pay-gate scandal. Thus us, the interested idiots, are forced to put the pieces of the puzzle together with little or no information available. In my case, since I do not trusth anything LA or JB say, I opine that these two crooks were cooking something up by the time AC won the Giro.

I the case of payment, it's well documented when UCI became involved, the role they played and what the out come was. The quote I used with the word "reportedly" was from the first hit of a Google search on the subject. There's was plenty more.

You have to understand, JB and LA are, above all, businessmen and they will jump at the first opportunity that comes around. I guarantee you, and I'd bet my left testicle on this, that LA's ego detests, HATES, the idea of anyone challenging his record. So we have what has happened to Astana during the past 2 years: LA's ego trip.

NO, YOU have to understand that JB and LA are proffessionl racers who love to compete. Who love to win. And they know that if you win all else follows. Including money.

Idiotic? Really? You mean LA doesn't have a foundation and sponsors, he most likely met during his numerous black-tie affairs, that were eager to finance his comeback and show the whole wide world the "superiority" of American sportmanship? Do you mean JB did not want to run to the Money Man (LA) when he heard the "I will only work with Johan Bruyneel" even though he had a contract with Astana (which most likely is the turning point when the Kazhaks smelled the shít piling up and decided to hold back on the moola)?

No, I dont' remeberber his comback like that at all

No, I am saying that The Plan was under way by the time AC won the Giro: They were trying to tire AC out of Astana. I mean, you don't call your biggest star from vacation and make him do the Giro! You nurture the guy. You make sure he does only enough races to keep or gain form but not to get burned out, especially knowing Alberto wanted the Vuelta and not the Giro.

I think you weren't paying attention to the sport when that went down. If you had, you'd have seen that they were NOT invited to the tour de France or the Giro. So when the invite came there was no question that AC as team leader on a Grand tour would be there. Especially since he didn't have to ride the tour. Race the Giro had no impact on his ability to ride the Vualty. No accually he need to ride the Giro and then train for the Vualta instead of riding the tour. He won both did he not?

But... Alberto turned out to be tougher than expected and he became a liability to The Plan, which explains the subsequent personal attacks from Johan Bruyneel and even Lance Armstrong himself. I sincerely DOUBT that LA wanted AC at Radio Shak. The Texan's ego wouldn't have allowed it. I mean, even after AC won the Tour, the Vuelta and the Giro JB was still saying he wasn't sure (about AC). Can you friggin believe it??? Think about it, what would lead a person to say something like that when your guy has just won the three toughest races in the world in a period of a little over 1 year?? You're not sure?? You're a fúcking idiot Johan.

back up what you say. when did Johan say he wasn't sure about AC. Where's your proof on that one. My guess is there isn't any.

Yes, Johan wanted to be there, but make no mistake, Alberto DID NOT want to do the Giro that year. The Spaniard was being set up to fail.

again. back up what you say here.
Nobody expected them to win. How can you "be set up to fail" when nobody expects you to win. hence our deer in the headlight looks when he did.

 

[Carboncrank]

I'm not sure you can argue that Astana 2010 is going to provide less support than Astana 2009... The only thing 2009 did for him was the TTT but there isn't one this year.

I'm tired. someone else educate him for us will ya?

 

[Publicus]

I'm tired. someone else educate him for us will ya?

He's on pretty solid footing.

 

[Publicus]

You talk as though you don't believe there's a mental aspect to this sport.

Schleck is on a killer team. Radio Shack is the deepest team in the sport. Astana is very very vulnerable and Vino could be more of a distraction than Lance ever was. Team problems are the greatest threat to Alberto winning this year. I don't know if he could have got out of his Astana contract if he wanted to or not. Obviously he thinks he can win with this bunch but personally, I don't think he's the brightest bulb on the tree.
Alberto better be stronger than he was last year because Lance certainly will be.

As recently as Jan 15th Lance has said; "I wouldn't be sitting here today if I didn't think I can win the Tour de France"

I saw team tactics of Lance and JB break a lot of great riders before. It's no certain thing that they can do it again but I sure wouldn't say they can't.

You used a lot of words here, but didn't really get at Rich's question. How does having (in your words) the deepest team in the peloton translate into Lance being able to out ride Contador or Andy Schleck? Levi can't turn the pedals for him. Nor can Kloden. And we all saw what happened with the final selection on the two most important stages last year.

And for the record, Lance said the almost exact same thing last year at the start of the Tour de France.

 

[Publicus]

This is what I'm talking about:



From this thread:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=5684&page=4



The same thread:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=5684&page=6

Remember I don't deny that all the suspicions could be true. But it concerns me that very few people raise their eyebrows, then claims are posted based on speculation.

In generel the members of this forum are doing a good job in this regard. But still I find that the Armstrong haters doesn't always apply this high standard.

Perhaps you should try asking a question that someone on these forums could actually know. If I knew how Lance was spending his money, I suspect my name would Lance Armstrong or whatever his accountant's name is.