British politics

[Cannibal72]

Interestingly enough, there was an article in the Guardian (Maxiton's absolutely right, it's the best source of UK political news) recently about how Cameron's inner circle were embarking on Operation Save Dave if they lose by appointing key leavers to senior roles - BoJo to Foreign Secretary, Gove to Deputy Prime Minister (=meaningless non-job), etc. I think it's all a waste of time: Cameron has staked his reputation on winning this (after coming incredibly close to destroying the union), and giving Boris a big job will just make him seem more legitimate as a king across the water. I was previously convinced Osborne was the next leader, and to be honest I don't see anything to disabuse me of that notion - IDS has blown over, GO is ahead of the game on tax returns, he has a baffling reputation for competence - unless Leave wins, in which case the right wing will have captured the Conservative Party for good.

You can blame Dave (or Dodgy Dave if you like) for a lot of things but not nearly destroying the union

As an aside the best source of UK politcal news is behind a paywall, the guardian 30 years ago was a decent paper but it has been in decline for some time now relying on polemics for click bait, but as they say you get what you pay for

The Times is...something, I guess, but it's no less polemical than the Guardian and has declined considerably in quality from its heyday.

When the Scottish referendum campaign began, support was at 39%. The last opinion polls showed it within the margin of error - with considerable boosts for 'yes' after Dave's last-minute trip up north. That campaign was incompetently run from start to finish, and Dave has to bear responsibility for the fact that his failure to communicate came close to destroying the union.

 

[del1962]

Re:

I'm not looking forward to this EU referendum. It hasn't been particularly pleasant with both sides using terrorist attacks for political motive and then blaming each other for doing exactly that. With the debates coming up, I do not expect it to get any better. It will be close, very close. Closer than last year's Scottish referendum. Right now a balance of poll show 50-50.

It's really interesting how party alliances mean so little in this election. If we take last year's GE, we see the Tories with 37% of the vote, Labour with 30%, UKIP with 13%,Liberals with 8%, SNP with 5 and Greens with 4%. All other parties were under 1, so no point including them. Liberals and Greens I expect all to go to Remain. Most of Labour will go to Remain, say 90% on a good day or 75% on a bad (from a Remain campaigner's PoV). SNP supporters will on the whole vote to stay, with 90-95% or so I imagine voting that way. UKIP will, unsurprisingly, all vote to Leave.

Here is where it is interesting: the Conservatives. The Cabinet is split, 7 members actively campaigning out, including Cameron's enemy IDS and Cameron's ally Gove. Perhaps most notably it includes BoJo, more on him later. Among the MPs, they are pretty evenly split, 160-130, with 30 or so undeclared. This leads you to imagine that among the grassroots, it is a similar story. No. In this article it shows that out of 72 councils contacted, 70 reported a Leave majority and 2 a Remain. Others didn't want to do a poll, and only 17 guessed a majority for Remain and half a dozen 50/50, which was what was expected. This shows a monumental split among the Tory party, akin to the PLP and grassroots Labour, and worse.

Estimates say Tory voters are split roughly 70/30, or 80/20 in some Conservative Home online polls. Compare this to the 60/40 split among MPs, or 75/25 among Cabinet members. This vote will be very hard to tell. The majority of grassroot Tories have had enough of Cameron and Osborne, only the staunchest Times/Telegraph readers remain, and most of the Telegraph want to Leave too. This represents a larger, potentially fatal wound for Osborne if he runs in 2020. Even if he wins the primary, many Tory voters will flock to UKIP (as we will probably have voted to Remain if Osborne has won) and because, of the system in the UK split the right-wing vote in many key constituencies, allowing an 'unelectable' and 'worthless' and 'inexistent' and 'inept' Labour to come into power. These adjectives only apply if you are Nick Cohen, the insufferable t*at who rites columns in the Observer, and gets hated on and corrected by most readers.

Which brings us on to the media in this debate. The Guardian, FT, Times, Mirror and i are campaigning actively to Remain. A spread of left and centre-right (right if you consider the Times as what it has become right-wing, but I'll give them centre-right as they supported Blair 3 times, who was only centre), as is mirrored in the people and some of the MPs. The Daily Mail, Telegraph, Sun and Express are all actively campaigning to Leave. A concentration of right to extreme-right (Express/Daily Mail at times, i.e when Hopkins writes). Readership-wise, Leave wins. The Sun and Mail are the most read newspapers in the UK. Admittedly, the Sun and Telegraph editorial are more split than the other two. The Sun has gone from supporting Blair 3 times to a right wing hate-spewing newspapers like the Daily Mail, while before it was just tits really, but that is another matter. The BBC, usually so neutral, has shown support for Remain.

Frankie Boyle has noted "we are having a referendum on the EU jut to decide who is the leader of the Tory Party". This is an ongoing side-show; rather, the main show at times. If Remain wins 55/45 then Cameron stays, buoyantly. If Remain win by very little, then it is in the balance. I imagine he'll stay. If Leave win by little, then he'll do all he can to stay, but may have to end up leaving. If Leave wins 55/45, then 'Dodgy Dave' will be forced to resign, and Boris Johnson take over.

Johnson came out in mid-Febraury saying that he wanted to leave the EU. This was a solely ambition-fuelled move. He truly wishes to Remain, but he knows that if he comes out as being against, then whatever happens at the referendum he most likely will wrap up the Tory leadership election. Gideon and May have both come out as wanting to stay. He is the only one.

The Tory leadership sideshow is perhaps more interesting than the referendum itself, at times. For me at least, it is fun to watch them implode.

I would say in terms of voters as oposed to party activists your percentage figures are wrong

No way 95% of SNP voters want to remain, probably more like 60-40 to remain

Obviously the vast majority of UKIP supporters want to leave

I think with Labour and Tory voters it is more difficult to judge, probably similar percentages for both,

I think Corbyn secretly wants a leave vote as he hopes to make political capital for it, although he has spoken in favor it is somewhat half-hearted, one of his political influences is Tony Benn who always wanted to leave, his problem is that to come out and say leave would probably be political suicide for him

To be honest both Labour and the Tories are a mess, I will probably vote Lib Dem next as at least their leader is someone I can respect

One of the funny thing about the no campaign is seeing Farage and Galloway hand in hand, especially after what georges George said about Farage at the last general election

 

[Cannibal72]

Interestingly enough, there was an article in the Guardian (Maxiton's absolutely right, it's the best source of UK political news) recently about how Cameron's inner circle were embarking on Operation Save Dave if they lose by appointing key leavers to senior roles - BoJo to Foreign Secretary, Gove to Deputy Prime Minister (=meaningless non-job), etc. I think it's all a waste of time: Cameron has staked his reputation on winning this (after coming incredibly close to destroying the union), and giving Boris a big job will just make him seem more legitimate as a king across the water. I was previously convinced Osborne was the next leader, and to be honest I don't see anything to disabuse me of that notion - IDS has blown over, GO is ahead of the game on tax returns, he has a baffling reputation for competence - unless Leave wins, in which case the right wing will have captured the Conservative Party for good.

How do you rate Boris's chance of becoming PM? Don't you think he'd be far preferable to Gideon?

If leave wins, I rate his chances very, very highly. Michael Gove is an intriguing outside bet (well liked by the right wing of the party, but making a show of backtracking on the more revulsively authoritarian and unjust policies of his predecessor) who could very well make it, but Boris will still be the number one favourite. If leave loses, I think his career in national politics is almost over. Dave will magnanimously give him a major Cabinet role, but the significance of that changes when Dave's the one in the ascendancy. Theresa May is still not trusted by the right wing, not liked by the centrists, and not viewed as competent by anyone. Gideon's pretty much inevitable.

To quote Lindsey Graham, the choice between Gideon and Boris is like choosing between being shot and being poisoned. But Boris is a cypher whose whole public appeal is based on his farcical nature; he's no less committed to the aggressive entrenchment of inequality, and his record includes some startlingly unacceptable statements and policies. Osborne is at the very least known as a reasonably moderate figure notoriously responsive to public pressure. I honestly think he'd make a slightly better PM than Dave, at least in terms of wanting to appear to do the right thing, but obviously that's an incredibly low bar and he'd still be working behind the scenes to degrade our country. At least he's on the record wanting to help the North, though.

I find Boris's obvious intelligence and wit compelling. I tend to trust intelligence and wit. Osborne seems decidedly unbalanced - though in his own way a lot of fun.

Boris is quick-thinking, but I must say I find him a little glib at times.

I'd prefer Cameron to Gideon to be honest. If never vote for either, mind.

Gideon is terrifically bad at maths, setting unreliable and unachievable targets on the deficit and thinking of making them by lowering taxes whilst cutting, cutting and cutting some more. Unfortunately, he's run out. If Gideon wins the leadership election then I reckon Corbyn has a good chance of winning the GE. Gideon isn't well liked at all among non-Tories, and not like by the right of his party. Could cause a split in the right vote.

Worth mentioning that people shouldn't compare Sanders with Corbyn. While both are self-styled Socialists, they are extremely different. Corbyn is much more interested in foreign policy and doesn't talk about banks and the city that much, unlike Bernie.

Agreed that Osborne is an incompetent chancellor, but I'd say 'downright mendacious' as opposed to 'bad at maths'. Gideon is definitely considered a safe pair of hands by the kind of lower-middle-class voters who swang for Blair (bit like Wendi Deng) but never would for Corbyn.

 

[ferryman]

It's kind of unfair to have just a US Politics thread and a UK politics one, so here goes.

What do you think the government should do to address the Tata Steel issue, if anything?

Which Government are you referring to? One has already taken action.

 

[ferryman]

Interestingly enough, there was an article in the Guardian (Maxiton's absolutely right, it's the best source of UK political news) recently about how Cameron's inner circle were embarking on Operation Save Dave if they lose by appointing key leavers to senior roles - BoJo to Foreign Secretary, Gove to Deputy Prime Minister (=meaningless non-job), etc. I think it's all a waste of time: Cameron has staked his reputation on winning this (after coming incredibly close to destroying the union), and giving Boris a big job will just make him seem more legitimate as a king across the water. I was previously convinced Osborne was the next leader, and to be honest I don't see anything to disabuse me of that notion - IDS has blown over, GO is ahead of the game on tax returns, he has a baffling reputation for competence - unless Leave wins, in which case the right wing will have captured the Conservative Party for good.

You can blame Dave (or Dodgy Dave if you like) for a lot of things but not nearly destroying the union

As an aside the best source of UK politcal news is behind a paywall, the guardian 30 years ago was a decent paper but it has been in decline for some time now relying on polemics for click bait, but as they say you get what you pay for

The Times is...something, I guess, but it's no less polemical than the Guardian and has declined considerably in quality from its heyday.

When the Scottish referendum campaign began, support was at 39%. The last opinion polls showed it within the margin of error - with considerable boosts for 'yes' after Dave's last-minute trip up north. That campaign was incompetently run from start to finish, and Dave has to bear responsibility for the fact that his failure to communicate came close to destroying the union.

Cameron didn't get further North than Newcastle. He certainly didn't enter any live debate. His bed fellows, Labour, Darling and Brown in particular did his dirty work North of the Border...

 

[CheckMyPecs]

It's kind of unfair to have just a US Politics thread and a UK politics one, so here goes.

What do you think the government should do to address the Tata Steel issue, if anything?

Which Government are you referring to? One has already taken action.

Westminster.

 

[ferryman]

It's kind of unfair to have just a US Politics thread and a UK politics one, so here goes.

What do you think the government should do to address the Tata Steel issue, if anything?

Which Government are you referring to? One has already taken action.

Westminster.

Best make it clear next time then eh, you dabble in English politics...

 

[CheckMyPecs]

It's kind of unfair to have just a US Politics thread and a UK politics one, so here goes.

What do you think the government should do to address the Tata Steel issue, if anything?

Which Government are you referring to? One has already taken action.

Westminster.

Best make it clear next time then eh, you dabble in English politics...

What? Are you claiming the Scottish gov't has taken action to save Welsh steelworks?

 

[Brullnux]

TATA affects not only Wales, but more steel factories around the UK. I do not know that much about the Scottish government's response to the steel crisis, but I imagine they've done something. SNP usually do; not always effective, mind.

 

[ferryman]

It's kind of unfair to have just a US Politics thread and a UK politics one, so here goes.

What do you think the government should do to address the Tata Steel issue, if anything?

Which Government are you referring to? One has already taken action.

Westminster.

Best make it clear next time then eh, you dabble in English politics...

What? Are you claiming the Scottish gov't has taken action to save Welsh steelworks?

Nah, you are not being confused. You are just being a ***.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Milton Keynes school turns away 29 girls for not dressing 'demurely'

Headteacher defends uniform policy saying it protects girls from boys’ advances, prompting accusations of victim blaming

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/apr/14/milton-keynes-bletchley-school-turns-away-29-girls-dressing-demure-modest

Of course it happens in Milton Keynes.

 

[Maxiton]

Re:

Milton Keynes school turns away 29 girls for not dressing 'demurely'

Headteacher defends uniform policy saying it protects girls from boys’ advances, prompting accusations of victim blaming

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/apr/14/milton-keynes-bletchley-school-turns-away-29-girls-dressing-demure-modest

Of course it happens in Milton Keynes.

If they are that concerned about "demure" dressing and "modesty" they should require uniforms. Otherwise they need to relax, but it doesn't sound as though that's a possibility.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Five arrested in UK after inquiry linked to Brussels and Paris terror attacks

Five people have been arrested in the UK over suspected British links to the terrorists that attacked Paris in November 2015 and Brussels earlier this year.

Four people were arrested in Birmingham, in the West Midlands, which British counter-terrorism officials believe one member of the European terror cell visited months before the massacre in Paris that killed 130 people. A fifth arrest was made at Gatwick airport in Sussex.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/15/five-people-arrested-in-west-midlands-uk-over-planning-terrorist-acts

Let's see how this ends...

 

[Cannibal72]

Re:

Milton Keynes school turns away 29 girls for not dressing 'demurely'

Headteacher defends uniform policy saying it protects girls from boys’ advances, prompting accusations of victim blaming

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/apr/14/milton-keynes-bletchley-school-turns-away-29-girls-dressing-demure-modest

Of course it happens in Milton Keynes.

The day they send boys away from a school for this is the day that I'll stop considering this hideously insensitive misogyny and objectification.

 

[Brullnux]

Milton Keynes school turns away 29 girls for not dressing 'demurely'

Headteacher defends uniform policy saying it protects girls from boys’ advances, prompting accusations of victim blaming

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/apr/14/milton-keynes-bletchley-school-turns-away-29-girls-dressing-demure-modest

Of course it happens in Milton Keynes.

The day they send boys away from a school for this is the day that I'll stop considering this hideously insensitive misogyny and objectification.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-31760713

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Judges to rule on appeal bid in 'celebrity threesome' case

The supreme court is expected to shortly announce whether it will hear the privacy injunction case banning identification of a celebrity involved in an extramarital relationship.

Justices at the UK’s highest court have signalled that they are examining the legal issues to see if there is a general point of law that needs clarification.

The case has raised the issue of whether injunctions restricting reporting can be enforced in the era of the internet. If the supreme court declines to hear the case, the interim injunction will expire on Wednesday lunchtime.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/19/judges-to-rule-on-appeal-bid-in-celebrity-threesome-case

Who even cares whether some celebrity had a threesome? Let them have their privacy.

 

[Brullnux]

Obama's trip to the UK has proved eventful, to say the least. He came in on the first day saying how the UK should stay in the EU, offering thinly veiled threats of what would happen should the UK leave.

"Back of the queue" in trade negotiations, lesser influence and things like that. Future Prime Minister Boris Johnson then came out all guns blazing saying that he would never allow America to be part of a political union, perhaps forgetting that the US is in itself a massive political union. He continued to call it "hypocritical" and "paradoxical". Then things took a more personal turn. BJ said that Obama had removed a painting of Churchill from the Oval Office in 2012, showing he hated Britain. This was a false accusation: he took it out in 2009 when he took office, as is normal practice, along with all the other Bush paintings. He also failed to mention that it is now in the Treaty Room. He then (all in the same interview) said that Obama's Kenyan ancestry would mean he'd hate Britannia. Yes, he actually said that. He actually said that because Obama is part-Kenyan he hates the UK, as the UK colonised it. As he is Kenyan, he is blinded by ancestral troubles many years ago and is not able to see the UK correctly. It was an insult. It was also "dog-whistle" and subvert racism. By saying this, he will undoubtedly have thousands of Britain First guys supporting him on Twitter and making racist comments. Farage then supported him,saying that he [Obama] "would probably hold a grudge as he's Kenyan", as if a) all Kenyans are the same and b) live so firmly in the past as to hate the colonizers of a country he's barely lived in (correct? I'm not sure).

This comes after the Tory London mayoral candidate, under the guidance of outgoing BJ, sent letters to anyone indian-soundng like Patel or Singh to try and raise social tensions between Sikhs and Muslims by accusing Khan, the muslim Labour candidate, of "standing side by side with extremists" and attempting to get their vote by using historical racial tensions. Once again, divisive and racist: not everyone called Patel or Singh is a Sikh. Those who aren't will be angry, and tell newspapers about this. Not all Sikhs hate Muslims, but now all Sikhs who don't hate Muslims probably hate you, Zac. The nasty party regaining their name.

Back to Boris. A couple of pages ago Max mentioned how he thought Boris was intelligent and witty. I disagree. Witty he may be. But intelligent he isn't. No intelligent person would say that. No intelligent person would go to Eton and Oxford, do Classics and come out with a 2:1, bearing in mind that anyone who goes to Eton has a free pass to Oxford or Cambridge, and Classics is and was done by about 40 people per college. It is a facade, an act. Boris Johnson is an imbecile.

 

[Maxiton]

Re:

Obama's trip to the UK has proved eventful . . . Boris Johnson is an imbecile.

<snipped for brevity>

You might be on to something. There's another problem with the BoJo Kenyan argument, besides all the obvious problems you mention, and it's even more fundamental.

The U.S. is also a former colony of Britain, a colony that fought a successful war of independence. Yes, it was almost 250 years ago, but believe it or not there are those here who haven't forgotten that war and the need to fight it, especially in New England, where you can still find people ready to fight the war again should the need arise, almost like it happened yesterday.

You don't need to be Kenyan to harbor a certain contempt for Britannia. Being American is quite enough.

 

[python]

^^yeah, i was going to post something on that obama pearl...frankly, i think all those reactions and overreactions, whilst silly if not stupid, are for naught.

the politicians may or may not be stupid, but it is their trademark to whip and spin in order to get the attention.
for naught b/c the uk needs ameirica geopolitically just as much, if not more, than v.v.

especially if they leave the eu.

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

^^yeah, i was going to post something on that obama pearl...frankly, i think all those reactions and overreactions, whilst silly if not stupid, are for naught.

the politicians may or may not be stupid, but it is their trademark to whip and spin in order to get the attention.
for naught b/c the uk needs ameirica geopolitically just as much, if not more, than v.v.

especially if they leave the eu.

We definitely would, no doubt about it. Britain isn't what it once was 200 years ago. It is powerful, but being involved in the EU gives us more power. What annoys me is the apprehension of playing a part in the EU, rather than stay on the outskirts and *** about it. We could be the second most important country, yet we are behind France and maybe even Italy.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

^^yeah, i was going to post something on that obama pearl...frankly, i think all those reactions and overreactions, whilst silly if not stupid, are for naught.

the politicians may or may not be stupid, but it is their trademark to whip and spin in order to get the attention.
for naught b/c the uk needs ameirica geopolitically just as much, if not more, than v.v.

especially if they leave the eu.

We definitely would, no doubt about it. Britain isn't what it once was 200 years ago. It is powerful, but being involved in the EU gives us more power. What annoys me is the apprehension of playing a part in the EU, rather than stay on the outskirts and *** about it. We could be the second most important country, yet we are behind France and maybe even Italy.

i said it more than once that i am a euro-skeptic and growing. that said, if i was a brit i'd see no rational reason for supporting a devorce. not the least b/c the eu basically handed cameron everything he was after. having already its own currency, foreign and defense policy plus being padded (if not insulated) from many of the continent's problems, there is little practical reason imo to quit the comfortable middle between the special us relationship and the economic amplification of the eu.

but the issue of sovereignty is an emotional political thing rather than a rational one, though, there will always be plenty of folks to refer to various 'facts' whilst their primary driver is an emotion.

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

^^yeah, i was going to post something on that obama pearl...frankly, i think all those reactions and overreactions, whilst silly if not stupid, are for naught.

the politicians may or may not be stupid, but it is their trademark to whip and spin in order to get the attention.
for naught b/c the uk needs ameirica geopolitically just as much, if not more, than v.v.

especially if they leave the eu.

We definitely would, no doubt about it. Britain isn't what it once was 200 years ago. It is powerful, but being involved in the EU gives us more power. What annoys me is the apprehension of playing a part in the EU, rather than stay on the outskirts and *** about it. We could be the second most important country, yet we are behind France and maybe even Italy.

i said it more than once that i am a euro-skeptic and growing. that said, if i was a brit i'd see no rational reason for supporting a devorce. not the least b/c the eu basically handed cameron everything he was after. having already its own currency, foreign and defense policy plus being padded (if not insulated) from many of the continent's problems, there is little practical reason imo to quit the comfortable middle between the special us relationship and the economic amplification of the eu.

but the issue of sovereignty is an emotional political thing rather than a rational one, though, there will always be plenty of folks to refer to various 'facts' whilst their primary driver is an emotion.

I agree.

In the case of the U.K. and the government it currently has, the EU offers more than just economic amplification, it also offers workers' rights, environmental protection and the like. If we were to leave the EU with this government, then I expect to see all these provisions gone, and the bits I dislike the most about the EU, like the TTIP agreement, to stay. Sure, taking hold of our borders is one thing, but to be honest the problems that face the UK is not that IMO. Anyone who has lived here a couple of years is a Brit in my eyes.

Another talking point is democracy, and the loss of it. I feel that the EU should have a mass election to pick the leader of the EU. Currently, we have a weird election not many people quite understand in which we just elect the national party of our choice who is part of a larger European party we hear little about, and the one with the most MEPs decides on the leader, in this case neo-liberal, tax evasion King-pin Juncker. Too often they are just a puppet who work for corporations. I don't see how a former-leader of a tax haven can become the leader of one of the most powerful unions in the world. As we don't really have a say, a mass US style election (not system, the US system is not one I want copied) across the continent would fix that problem.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Re:

but the issue of sovereignty is an emotional political thing rather than a rational one, though, there will always be plenty of folks to refer to various 'facts' whilst their primary driver is an emotion.

If you support British sovereignty (and I do), staying in the EU is the best option.

This article, by the prime minister of non-EU member Norway, explains how staying outside the EU actually ends up costing you sovereignty.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2013/04/19/norwegian-model-poor-alternative-eu-uk-membership-eea-erna-solberg/

 

[ray j willings]

A special relationship with the US . WTF if anyone knows their history we are still paying the US for WW2 .
And the moronic prime ministers we have had the last few years blindly follow the global take over policy of the US elite that has killed millions and made millions homeless and we are told all this terror is to get rid of a few dictators and yet do nothing about the terror the Saudis etc put on their people.

No crazy conspiracy theory this is happening now rolled out big time by Bush and happily carried on by obarmy and will keep rolling with Clinton and it needs the UK to stay on board and stay in Europe Trust me it will whatever you vote . Think about it . How many countires are now classed as in Euro ?

Please take a look.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm

PS. The queen is the biggest sponger in the UK. WTF should we give that privileged witch our hard earned cash.
Its been proved she creates no wealth except her own. They always forget to mention a heap of expenses.
You see some TV show about some poor person earning a few extra quid while claiming benefits and the media paint them as though they are murderers and yet they are happy to tell us how great the royal family his and how hard they work traveling around the world in private planes or first class and staying at best places in the world watching some of the greatest happening's in the world and " they work hard" f$$ off They are the biggest spongers and Pi££ takers in the country. I'm happy for them to stay as long as they start paying back all the millions they have taken off of us and redistribute the land we own not them so its of benefit to everyone. Most are blinded by a history of lies and deception and don't have any idea the evil dictatorships and rulers that for century's have gained power for themselves just like religion controls mindless morons so do the monarchy.
Its all Bullsh%5 and a sad fu%%ng world that my kids have to grow up in.
Its run by insane lunatics who just want to keep having wars - see the link above .

 

[Brullnux]

Massive storm among the Labour Party about anti-semitism within it. There are many alleged cases, and some are actually fairly anti-Semitic, but others solely criticise the actions of the Israeli government. I think the problem with the some parts of Labour is stressing their problem is with Zionism, rather than the Israeli government. Zionism is Jewish right to self-determination, and the actions of the Israeli government are racist. They are not the same thing.