British politics

[macbindle]

Nope. That is your interpretation, but as we know your literary skills are somewhat undeveloped.

You don't understand that democracy can produce bad decisions e.g.. Hitler.

 

[Lupi33x]

Re:

Nope. That is your interpretation, but as we know your literary skills are somewhat undeveloped.

You don't understand that democracy can produce bad decisions e.g.. Hitler.

Meanwhile the majority of the media propaganda and celebrities were telling the general public to remain.
If not for that it would've been an even greater margin for exiting.

I highly doubt the public were going against the tide of the press back in 1933.

You were just wrong. If you want to remain in the German empire that's your business. The majority of your countrymen don't.

 

[macbindle]

Wrong again.

There are 65 million people in the UK. Only 17 million voted Leave.

 

[rick james]

Re:

Wrong again.

There are 65 million people in the UK. Only 17 million voted Leave.

Wow, what a way to spin bad news for your lot

 

[macbindle]

Re: Re:

Wrong again.

There are 65 million people in the UK. Only 17 million voted Leave.

Wow, what a way to spin bad news for your lot

Nope. Just dispelling the BS that it was "the will of the people"

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Wrong again.

There are 65 million people in the UK. Only 17 million voted Leave.

Wow, what a way to spin bad news for your lot

Nope. Just dispelling the BS that it was "the will of the people"

I suppose it depends how you want to define "The People". Arguably "The People" are those who were both eligible to vote and those who voted. They are the people who could and did engage with the system.

 

[macbindle]

In which case it was "the will of barely more than half the people"

I think it matters, because the implication of "the people" is that it is everybody.

 

[aphronesis]

Re:

In which case it was "the will of barely more than half the people"

I think it matters, because the implication of "the people" is that it is everybody.

Which is a tendency of modern politics often: to convey disparate multitudes as a mass.

Lupi suffers from that tendency.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

In which case it was "the will of barely more than half the people"

I think it matters, because the implication of "the people" is that it is everybody.

Why everybody? Surely it’s only the people who actually have a say? Yo could limit it to those eligible to vote but I’d also say that it’s fair to consider only those who did vote. While the solution is complex, maybe even impossible, the question was binary. Seems if you have any opinion then you would exercise your right.

 

[aphronesis]

I think there’s a temporal element. Per my post above, once the decision has been voted on the conclusion is often presented as unanimous.

 

[King Boonen]

I get that, but I'm talking about how it should be discussed, rather than how the media/sides portray it and attempt to project it onto a larger group. I know the counter argument is that is should include everyone if affects, but then where do you draw the line?

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Re: Re:

Your bolded quote is me pointing out that the UK referendum vote is not"the will of the people", it is the will of half of those who voted.....or do the other half not qualify as part of "the people"?

The second quote is pointing out that Hitler rose to power democratically.

So again, quote where I said whatever it is that you are saying that I said. Your misinterpretation doesn't count, I'm afraid.

Democracy is majority rule.

So you will be petitioning Trump to stand down, as he did not get the support of the majority.
Or are you happy to concede that the US is not a democracy?

 

[aphronesis]

Re:

I get that, but I'm talking about how it should be discussed, rather than how the media/sides portray it and attempt to project it onto a larger group. I know the counter argument is that is should include everyone if affects, but then where do you draw the line?

Then it ought to be left at “voters” no? If I’m reading you correctly. And not politicized differently in its discussion.

 

[macbindle]

Re:

I think there’s a temporal element. Per my post above, once the decision has been voted on the conclusion is often presented as unanimous.

Exactly.

I wasn't really commenting on the disenfranchised (such as the under 18s, overwhelmingly pro-EU, and likely to be affected by the result of the referendum more than the old). It's this Faragism of "the will of the people" that bugs me.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

Your bolded quote is me pointing out that the UK referendum vote is not"the will of the people", it is the will of half of those who voted.....or do the other half not qualify as part of "the people"?

The second quote is pointing out that Hitler rose to power democratically.

So again, quote where I said whatever it is that you are saying that I said. Your misinterpretation doesn't count, I'm afraid.

Democracy is majority rule.

So you will be petitioning Trump to stand down, as he did not get the support of the majority.
Or are you happy to concede that the US is not a democracy?

The US is a republic, and a ‘democracy’...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/13/is-the-united-states-of-america-a-republic-or-a-democracy/?utm_term=.6f021d458675

 

[aphronesis]

Re: Re:

I think there’s a temporal element. Per my post above, once the decision has been voted on the conclusion is often presented as unanimous.

Exactly.

I wasn't really commenting on the disenfranchised (such as the under 18s, overwhelmingly pro-EU, and likely to be affected by the result of the referendum more than the old). It's this Faragism of "the will of the people" that bugs me.

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n06/linda-colley/can-history-help

 

[macbindle]

Interesting article, and indeed Brexit was touted by some as revenge on the political elite essentially for the lack of change. And yet for other leavers Brexit is driven by a regressive vision of Britain. A Britain of cheery white people, milkmen, bus conductors, Spitfires thrumming over white cliffs, pea-soupers, giving the Hun a bloody good thrashing, cricket etc etc.

Brexit allows for a new global Britain, but for others it is a rejection of globalisation.

It's taking back control, but handing it to the Etonite, Bullingdon, porcine-rapist, old money.

If the power structures in place are old and long founded, they are in an ideal position to ensure that the spoils of Brexit land right in their lap.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

I get that, but I'm talking about how it should be discussed, rather than how the media/sides portray it and attempt to project it onto a larger group. I know the counter argument is that is should include everyone if affects, but then where do you draw the line?

Then it ought to be left at “voters” no? If I’m reading you correctly. And not politicized differently in its discussion.

Yes, that'd be fine. Both sides play the game of using "people" to encompass a group that they define. It's very easy twist it either way.

 

[del1962]

Re:

Interesting article, and indeed Brexit was touted by some as revenge on the political elite essentially for the lack of change. And yet for other leavers Brexit is driven by a regressive vision of Britain. A Britain of cheery white people, milkmen, bus conductors, Spitfires thrumming over white cliffs, pea-soupers, giving the Hun a bloody good thrashing, cricket etc etc.

Brexit allows for a new global Britain, but for others it is a rejection of globalisation.

It's taking back control, but handing it to the Etonite, Bullingdon, porcine-rapist, old money.

If the power structures in place are old and long founded, they are in an ideal position to ensure that the spoils of Brexit land right in their lap.

What a bunch of drivel, people voted for many different reasons, but all you give us is false characatures

Anyway democracy is more than just the ballot box

It is also about a free press that is not controlled by politicians as Steptoe threatens if he came to power watch out for the connection to one of oswald mosley's offspring, it is also about an independent judiciary and people having various rights.

 

[macbindle]

Re: Re:

Interesting article, and indeed Brexit was touted by some as revenge on the political elite essentially for the lack of change. And yet for other leavers Brexit is driven by a regressive vision of Britain. A Britain of cheery white people, milkmen, bus conductors, Spitfires thrumming over white cliffs, pea-soupers, giving the Hun a bloody good thrashing, cricket etc etc.

Brexit allows for a new global Britain, but for others it is a rejection of globalisation.

It's taking back control, but handing it to the Etonite, Bullingdon, porcine-rapist, old money.

If the power structures in place are old and long founded, they are in an ideal position to ensure that the spoils of Brexit land right in their lap.

What a bunch of drivel, people voted for many different reasons, but all you give us is false characatures

Anyway democracy is more than just the ballot box

It is also about a free press that is not controlled by politicians as Steptoe threatens if he came to power watch out for the connection to one of oswald mosley's offspring, it is also about an independent judiciary and people having various rights.

You are right.

I forgot to mention the racists.

Interestingly, there is a very strong correlation between desire for death penalty and Leave voting. In itself a very good demonstration of why the decision to leave or remain in the EU should never have been put to the public vote.

 

[aphronesis]

Whoops.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/23/we-have-been-hijacked-fishermen-feel-used-over-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

This just keeps happening.

I took the caricatures with the rippling connotations they may have intended.

But literalism dies hard.

 

[macbindle]

I took the caricatures with the rippling connotations they may have intended.

But literalism dies hard.

I don't suppose del1962 bothered to read the article you posted and read my post in that context

This just keeps happening.

Voting for Brexit was an act of faith against evidence and reason, which is why potential Brexit voters could never seem to ennunciate a coherent rationale. Faith only gets you so far and this week it turns out that we got as far as fish.

Remainers merely had to point to the status quo.

Oh well, here's looking forward to...when is it?....2021?....when we finally get to live in the xenophobic exceptionalist Shangri La that the 'people' demand.

In other news, nobody seems to be pointing out the hypocrisy of Boris Johnson, hailing the "unqualified solidarity" offered to the UK by the EU security council, in the current conflagration with Russia.

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

Interesting article, and indeed Brexit was touted by some as revenge on the political elite essentially for the lack of change. And yet for other leavers Brexit is driven by a regressive vision of Britain. A Britain of cheery white people, milkmen, bus conductors, Spitfires thrumming over white cliffs, pea-soupers, giving the Hun a bloody good thrashing, cricket etc etc.

Brexit allows for a new global Britain, but for others it is a rejection of globalisation.

It's taking back control, but handing it to the Etonite, Bullingdon, porcine-rapist, old money.

If the power structures in place are old and long founded, they are in an ideal position to ensure that the spoils of Brexit land right in their lap.

What a bunch of drivel, people voted for many different reasons, but all you give us is false characatures

Anyway democracy is more than just the ballot box

It is also about a free press that is not controlled by politicians as Steptoe threatens if he came to power watch out for the connection to one of oswald mosley's offspring, it is also about an independent judiciary and people having various rights.

You are right.

I forgot to mention the racists.

Interestingly, there is a very strong correlation between desire for death penalty and Leave voting. In itself a very good demonstration of why the decision to leave or remain in the EU should never have been put to the public vote.

You must mean the anti-EU leader of her majesty's opposition

 

[macbindle]

Oh the anti-semitism thing?

Interesting that nobody objected 6 years ago when Corbyn made the remark. I guess with him being a backbencher at the time there wasnt any value in it for the Tories

 

[King Boonen]

Ignore the party politics and it becomes very hard to call Corbyn an anti-Semite. However, far-left (is he really far left? He’s a socialist!) politics do open themselves up to anti-semites and anti-Semitic views. I haven’t followed everything but it does sound like labours new leadership should be doing more to tackle this.