Brits don't dope?

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I think it's more a question of there being a smoking gun, and a body, but nobody has found the bullets yet.

Of course they are employing drugs. Why wouldn't they? Their livelihood depends on it, and as Blackcat demonstrated the odds of it all going horribly wrong are small. Armstrong was only outed because he and Bruyneel made a decision to not employ Landis. They would never have imagined that Landis would turn on them.

When Floyd went looking for a European team, Bruyneel was the only team manager who would talk with him. Guys like Riis would not return phone calls or e-mails. Bruyneel did not doubt Floyd could reach his previous level but said he could not bring Landis on board because he feared complications from the UCI and ASO.

i) he said that, but do you think he told the truth?
ii) ASO tweaked the race route for Armstrong

which tells me, if Armstrong wanted Landis, he would have had him on the team. Armstrong did not want him, because of the negative light it would have brought on Team Radioshack from the public, those in the sport, those outside the sport.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Proposition 1: the rat really smells.
Proposition 2: I infer the existence of a rat.

What precisely are people disputing here? My senses or my inferences?

wait, are there two things conflated here, are there clean cyclists in the peloton(normal hygienic rats), but the olfactory confers a doping suspicion?

second proposition, i agree with, in that, my default position, pro peloton, = doping athlete.

my corollary is, I make zero value judgement on PEDs, in fact, my position is, it is a simple decision to dope, and you would have to be an idiot not to dope. So if one believes I am smearing an entire sample of athletes, you are projecting this judgement on my opinion, and you are the one judging the hypothetical clean athlete as of higher virtue, and the other riders who do take PEDs of lesser character. Thats bunkum!

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

*Too hot to handle*

Good thing JV and his reformed dopers squad welcomed Landis with open arms though.

That is JV in a nutshell. Playing both sides of the fence.

The UCI are like Roman Emperors, thumb up or thumb down!

 

[Benotti69]

Graham Arthur, legal director UK Anti-Doping, suspended after report on Bonar case shows “ghastly” mistakes.

Wonder how many 'ghastly' mistakes have been made in testing UK athletes? Loads i guess!

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/uk-anti-doping-official-suspended-cnkct8f2l

 

[thehog]

Re:

Graham Arthur, legal director UK Anti-Doping, suspended after report on Bonar case shows “ghastly” mistakes.

Wonder how many 'ghastly' mistakes have been made in testing UK athletes? Loads i guess!

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/uk-anti-doping-official-suspended-cnkct8f2l

A Bird & Bird man no less....

Since its inception UKAD has agreed sanctions or held hearings in around 30 cases. Mostly Arthur and his team do the case preparation and presentation themselves, but he will outsource work if a hearing is particularly long or complicated. Bird & Bird is the go-to firm for litigation and anti-doping advice, while ­Covington & Burling – Arthur’s ­former employer – provides data ­protection advice.

 

[sniper]

Re:

BC backhand mafia lack of transparency again contested:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/british-cycling-unprofessional-and-disrespectful-says-simmonds-after-olympics-snub/

Hayley Simmonds celebrated a second straight British national time trial title on Thursday, but on Friday she had to stomach the news that she won't be going to Rio this summer to represent her country at the Olympic Games. Having not, she says, been personally informed of the decision, the 27-year-old hit out at British Cycling, accusing the federation of 'unprofessionalism' and of failing athletes by not giving them "fair opportunity to utilise their talent".
...
The selectors instead opted for Emma Pooley, who has recently come out of retirement but only raced two events prior to the national time trial, where she was a minute slower than Simmonds over the 34.7km course.

The bolded is interesting, considering Pooley is also on UKAD's Athletes Committee, representing cycling.
http://www.ukad.org.uk/our-organisation/governance/athlete-committee/

 

[Libertine Seguros]

That's just run of the mill stuff though. To be honest I'm surprised Pooley is in the position of being picked on her history ahead of others who may have been better placed, given that she's had plenty to say about British Cycling in the past, not much of which has been positive (nor should it have been given their treatment of her) - but then again British Cycling has outwardly at least tried a level of mythmaking around Armitstead, and she's had plenty negative to say about their behaviour too.

However, this is no worse than Kristin Armstrong's coach being prominent in the selection committee in the US, and though he states that he steps back from discussion where she's involved because of the conflict of interest, the remaining selectors do still have to work with that person, so the fact riders with more prominent results than her who've fulfilled the criteria they were asked to for selection are omitted while Armstrong is retained has to be seen in that context as well.

And also, of course, the fact that the Australian selectors have just announced their four women for the road, and nobody who rides outside of the Orica team has been picked. It might be a good time to point out that Tiffany Cromwell is in good form, having won a Giro stage, and has been the best placed Australian in each of the last three World Championships.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

Proposition 1: the rat really smells.
Proposition 2: I infer the existence of a rat.

What precisely are people disputing here? My senses or my inferences?

wait, are there two things conflated here, are there clean cyclists in the peloton(normal hygienic rats), but the olfactory confers a doping suspicion?

second proposition, i agree with, in that, my default position, pro peloton, = doping athlete.

my corollary is, I make zero value judgement on PEDs, in fact, my position is, it is a simple decision to dope, and you would have to be an idiot not to dope. So if one believes I am smearing an entire sample of athletes, you are projecting this judgement on my opinion, and you are the one judging the hypothetical clean athlete as of higher virtue, and the other riders who do take PEDs of lesser character. Thats bunkum!

I'm sort of going more particular.

The smell of the rat is the tremendous rise of British cycling, and specifically, the historically unprecedented alchemy of turning trackies into GT riders and climbers.

The inference is that this possible in only one way. aka Berzin.

Your imperious reasoning covers p1 & p2 plus just about everything else.

Some people seem to be disputing the smelly rat (p1): i.e. there is nothing amazing at all going on in British cycling since Wiggins et al. There isn't actually a rat in the first instance. Perhaps my nose is just off.....Perhaps I just hate the British for their colonialism and invention of capitalism.....

Other people seem disputing the inference that there is only one possible way to turn trackies into GT goats.

 

[sniper]

cheers Libertine.
I realize such potential conflicts and cloudiness over Olympic selection arise frequently and easily.
you give good examples.
Here's another example involving the SA selection for 2012 London.
There were plans in 2011/12 for Jeroen Swart and Barry Austin to work together.
They both went to the Olympics as SA cycling coaches (Austin as head coach; Swart for MTB) and Team Bonitas had both of them on their staff roster in 2012. But things didn't quite work out between them when Austin decided to select Ashleigh Moolman Pasio at the cost of Cherise Taylor-Stander, even though Cherize had a higher UCI ranking. Cherise was Burry Stander's sister (Burry, who sadly passed away in 2013) and both she and her brother were coached by Swart.
Needless to say, Swart and Cherise weren't amused.
http://www.bicycling.co.za/race-news/local-racing-news/olympic-team-the-best-for-the-job/ (see Swart's comments in the comment section)
Ms. Stander even wanted to go to court to fight Austin's decision but she didn't in the end.
I assume (but could be wrong) that this incident was one reason why Swart ended up leaving Bonitas almost immediately after they hired him, still at the end of 2012.

and sorry for going offtopic.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Proposition 1: the rat really smells.
Proposition 2: I infer the existence of a rat.

What precisely are people disputing here? My senses or my inferences?

wait, are there two things conflated here, are there clean cyclists in the peloton(normal hygienic rats), but the olfactory confers a doping suspicion?

second proposition, i agree with, in that, my default position, pro peloton, = doping athlete.

my corollary is, I make zero value judgement on PEDs, in fact, my position is, it is a simple decision to dope, and you would have to be an idiot not to dope. So if one believes I am smearing an entire sample of athletes, you are projecting this judgement on my opinion, and you are the one judging the hypothetical clean athlete as of higher virtue, and the other riders who do take PEDs of lesser character. Thats bunkum!

I'm sort of going more particular.

The smell of the rat is the tremendous rise of British cycling, and specifically, the historically unprecedented alchemy of turning trackies into GT riders and climbers.

The inference is that this possible in only one way. aka Berzin.

Your imperious reasoning covers p1 & p2 plus just about everything else.

Some people seem to be disputing the smelly rat (p1): i.e. there is nothing amazing at all going on in British cycling since Wiggins et al. There isn't actually a rat in the first instance. Perhaps my nose is just off.....Perhaps I just hate the British for their colonialism and invention of capitalism.....

Other people seem disputing the inference that there is only one possible way to turn trackies into GT goats.

i was being a smartarse.

 

[thehog]

London, the dirtiest Games in history, although not many medal winners testing positive, must have a look at the medals table to find out why :lol:

 

[BullsFan22]

London, the dirtiest Games in history, although not many medal winners testing positive, must have a look at the medals table to find out why :lol:

1980.

1988-2000, those figures are misleading as well. We (well, those of us that care to do some research), now know that the USOC played a massive role in sweeping away hundreds of positives. So just by the Americans and Russians, the figures would skyrocket and they'd have to do a graph the size of the eiffel tower.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Proposition 1: the rat really smells.
Proposition 2: I infer the existence of a rat.

What precisely are people disputing here? My senses or my inferences?

wait, are there two things conflated here, are there clean cyclists in the peloton(normal hygienic rats), but the olfactory confers a doping suspicion?

second proposition, i agree with, in that, my default position, pro peloton, = doping athlete.

my corollary is, I make zero value judgement on PEDs, in fact, my position is, it is a simple decision to dope, and you would have to be an idiot not to dope. So if one believes I am smearing an entire sample of athletes, you are projecting this judgement on my opinion, and you are the one judging the hypothetical clean athlete as of higher virtue, and the other riders who do take PEDs of lesser character. Thats bunkum!

I'm sort of going more particular.

The smell of the rat is the tremendous rise of British cycling, and specifically, the historically unprecedented alchemy of turning trackies into GT riders and climbers.

The inference is that this possible in only one way. aka Berzin.

Your imperious reasoning covers p1 & p2 plus just about everything else.

Some people seem to be disputing the smelly rat (p1): i.e. there is nothing amazing at all going on in British cycling since Wiggins et al. There isn't actually a rat in the first instance. Perhaps my nose is just off.....Perhaps I just hate the British for their colonialism and invention of capitalism.....

Other people seem disputing the inference that there is only one possible way to turn trackies into GT goats.

off topic but 'invention of capitalism'??

 

[BullsFan22]

I don't know why we still have this thread. It's fairly obvious that Brits don't dope. Lord Coe, Paula, Sir Brailsford, Sir Wiggins, Froomedawg, Mo, Cameron....they've all come out and said that they are squeaky clean and they will continue to fight for clean sport and clean athletes that play by the rules!

 

[Catwhoorg]

That chart also doesn't appear to include the recent rechecks, which adds positives to both 2008 and 2012, and a whole lot more medalists.

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

We are just helping to distinguish between the psyche of cheating which begins at Calais and the cheating which doesn't take place at all in Dover. Not unreasonable in a Brits don't dope thread.

Ah yes, all good clean fun, that. Don't forget the Armada. Had it landed successfully there would have been no hope of maintaining our British aloofness and propriety. Consider perhaps the conflicting influences of the Commonwealth under Oliver Cromwell and the Scottishness of the Stuarts, though I suspect that the Glorious Revolution may have introduced more insidious foreign influence into the melting pot.

If I may be permitted to observe, usuary clearly has no relevance.

For a 1000 years England "Merrily" lived under insidious foreign influence. (Alfred the Great spent his formative years in Rome). Shakespeare understood all too well the insidious nature of usury. As Cannibal rightly observed these practices were the result of foreign influences leant from the Italian city states. In a similar way doping was learnt from foreigners.

I am sure you are right. You must be. Don't forget the Vikings, the refugee Huguenots, the Germanic Monarchy, the Grand Tour, the Empire and even our former guest and exile, the Maharajah Duleep Singh. At the end of the day we are just like everyone else, but in a different sort of way. Not like the French, the Belgians or the Germans. A bit like the Scandinavians perhaps, but in other ways not so. I doubt you will prove anything one way ot the other but if you sstill want to carry on I will watch in wonder.

I don't subscribe to biological determinism - "we are not like the French, the Belgians or the Germans". That ideology was prominent in the 1930's and was a case of the British teaching it to foreigners. Mary Stopes was a big hit at the National Socialist German Workers Party conference in 1934 for example. Presumably she was invited because party members thought she was very much like them.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

We are just helping to distinguish between the psyche of cheating which begins at Calais and the cheating which doesn't take place at all in Dover. Not unreasonable in a Brits don't dope thread.

Ah yes, all good clean fun, that. Don't forget the Armada. Had it landed successfully there would have been no hope of maintaining our British aloofness and propriety. Consider perhaps the conflicting influences of the Commonwealth under Oliver Cromwell and the Scottishness of the Stuarts, though I suspect that the Glorious Revolution may have introduced more insidious foreign influence into the melting pot.

If I may be permitted to observe, usuary clearly has no relevance.

For a 1000 years England "Merrily" lived under insidious foreign influence. (Alfred the Great spent his formative years in Rome). Shakespeare understood all too well the insidious nature of usury. As Cannibal rightly observed these practices were the result of foreign influences leant from the Italian city states. In a similar way doping was learnt from foreigners.

I am sure you are right. You must be. Don't forget the Vikings, the refugee Huguenots, the Germanic Monarchy, the Grand Tour, the Empire and even our former guest and exile, the Maharajah Duleep Singh. At the end of the day we are just like everyone else, but in a different sort of way. Not like the French, the Belgians or the Germans. A bit like the Scandinavians perhaps, but in other ways not so. I doubt you will prove anything one way ot the other but if you sstill want to carry on I will watch in wonder.

I don't subscribe to biological determinism - "we are not like the French, the Belgians or the Germans". That ideology was prominent in the 1930's and was a case of the British teaching it to foreigners. Mary Stopes was a big hit at the National Socialist German Workers Party conference in 1934 for example. Presumably she was invited because party members thought she was very much like them.

Nor I. As they say, "This theory stands in contrast to the notion that human behavior is determined by culture or other social forces." What did I say to make you think I was on the dark side?

 

[Catwhoorg]

Two new cases appeared at UKAD sicne my last check.

A professional footballer (Alan Judge of Brentford FC) getting a warning and a period of targeted testing for Salbutamol. (he was found to be under the "No significant fault or negligence" level). Sad really that a professional sportsman is so ignorant of the allowed levels of a medication.

Link:
http://www.ukad.org.uk/anti-doping-rule-violations/download-decision/a/7157


The second case is more interesting:
Luke Graham an amateur boxer was charged and convicted by the Guernsey courts of importing steroids. He got 100 hour community service, UKAD was informed, he admitted the charge at got the standard 2 year ban (under the 2009 code in force at that time)

Link:
http://www.ukad.org.uk/anti-doping-rule-violations/download-decision/a/7160


Once again showing law enforcement seems to be a more reliable way of catching cheats than testing is.

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

Nor I. As they say, "This theory stands in contrast to the notion that human behavior is determined by culture or other social forces." What did I say to make you think I was on the dark side?

I didn't accuse of being on any side light or dark. I suggested that I don't accept the views that Brit are different from the French, Belgians and Germans when it comes to doping or any other human behaviour for that matter - good or bad - light or dark. We are all the same i.e. Brits have no biological feature which prevents them from doping nor do the Scandinavians. I see it as a moral choice as Paul Kimmage suggested all those years ago.

 

[Red Rick]

I deleted a bunch of off topic stuff. Let's keep this about Brits and dope shall we. I think that's what this thread was supposed to be about.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

I deleted a bunch of off topic stuff. Let's keep this about Brits and dope shall we. I think that's what this thread was supposed to be about.

Thank you. Almost forgot what the thread was about!

 

[Nellyspania]

Re: Re:

I deleted a bunch of off topic stuff. Let's keep this about Brits and dope shall we. I think that's what this thread was supposed to be about.

Thank you. Almost forgot what the thread was about!

Muscular Christianity, Gordonstoun, Chariots of fire

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

I deleted a bunch of off topic stuff. Let's keep this about Brits and dope shall we. I think that's what this thread was supposed to be about.

Thank you. Almost forgot what the thread was about!

Muscular Christianity, Gordonstoun, Chariots of fire

I made references to Italian Renaissance Christianity and was wiped.

 

[kwikki]

Anyone know of any famous British doping doctors? I mean, I've heard of Leinders, Ferrari, Fuentes et al. Of the top of my head I can't remember any pro rider scandals involving British doctors.

Not saying they don't exist....just wondering where they are.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re:

Anyone know of any famous British doping doctors? I mean, I've heard of Leinders, Ferrari, Fuentes et al. Of the top of my head I can't remember any pro rider scandals involving British doctors.

Not saying they don't exist....just wondering where they are.

Well Bonar the Incompetent thought he was one I suppose. The latest on him is herehttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3690816/Doctor-centre-sports-doping-allegations-guilty-misconduct-treatment-cancer-patient.html and he will be minding his back for a while.