Brits don't dope?

[fmk_RoI]

One more link: the death of Arthur Linton https://www.podiumcafe.com/book-corner/2015/5/7/8564379/bordeaux-paris-and-the-death-of-arthur-linton

 

[Craigee]

Rudiger Rabenstein claims that Arthur Linton was "massively doped" for the 1896 Bordeaux–Paris.

Who was Rudiger Rabenstein?

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Rudiger Rabenstein claims that Arthur Linton was "massively doped" for the 1896 Bordeaux–Paris.

Who was Rudiger Rabenstein?

He was one of the idiots who helped popularise the Linton myth and the demonisation of Warburton that other idiots so happily repeat without checking, even today, 20 years later.

 

[Random Direction]

Middle class twits or village idiots? Strong language, something hit a raw nerve.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Middle class twits or village idiots? Strong language, something hit a raw nerve.

It's odd, but the sort of people who blithely link intelligence and social class very often tend toward linking intelligence and race...

 

[Netserk]

So? I guess you'll problematize if anyone links ethnic background and height as well...

How dare anyone suggest that genes explain some of the difference between the heights of Asians and (Northern) Europeans.

What's next?! That intelligence might actually be a selector for what social class you end up in? That different populations have different levels of intelligence. Heresy!

 

[Wiggo's Package]

Re:

So? I guess you'll problematize if anyone links ethnic background and height as well...

How dare anyone suggest that genes explain some of the difference between the heights of Asians and (Northern) Europeans.

What's next?! That intelligence might actually be a selector for what social class you end up in? That different populations have different levels of intelligence. Heresy!

We are drifting off topic but in the UK the social class you are born into is the main selector for the social class you end up in. Intelligence has unfortunately little to do with it

By the age of 7 middle class kids are ahead of working class kids and posh kids are in private schools. It only gets worse after that. Tuition fees stop poor kids from going to higher education. The old school tie approach to recruitment, etc. Social mobility is a dying concept in the UK (maybe it's different in Denmark?)

This just one recent example (and btw Justine Greening was sacked in this week's govt reshuffle for failing to increase inequality by introducing more grammar schools and free schools)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42212270

 

[macbindle]

So? I guess you'll problematize if anyone links ethnic background and height as well...

How dare anyone suggest that genes explain some of the difference between the heights of Asians and (Northern) Europeans.

What's next?! That intelligence might actually be a selector for what social class you end up in? That different populations have different levels of intelligence. Heresy!

As somebody who grew up in a culture who's social institutions were (still are, but maybe slightly less so) riven with class-based impediments...I can only sigh and laugh at your post, Netserk.

Curiously though, there is a tenuous connection with the notion that 'Brits don't dope'.

 

[Craigee]

Re: Re:

Rudiger Rabenstein claims that Arthur Linton was "massively doped" for the 1896 Bordeaux–Paris.

Who was Rudiger Rabenstein?

He was one of the idiots who helped popularise the Linton myth and the demonisation of Warburton that other idiots so happily repeat without checking, even today, 20 years later.

Check? What? Something that no one can confirm or deny from over 100 years ago?

We have to choose which story to believe or choose to believe neither and stay neutral and going on the fact that you weren't around at the time of Choppy and Linton, I think that I can safely say that you have chosen your story.

Weird thing though, that anyone would make up such damning slander about one man and doping in the 1800s.

Is this true that he was banned from cycling?

"Warburton was banned from the sport after unproven claims of massive doping in the 1896 Bordeaux–Paris. His activities may have contributed to the early deaths of Arthur Linton, Tom Linton and Jimmy Michael"

And This?

"Jimmy Michael of Wales, world cycling champion, died aged 27, en voyage to New York City. The cause of death was noted as delirium tremens, probably brought on by drinking.[14] Michael was managed by Choppy Warburton,[4] whose success was questioned, with claims that he drugged his charges. Michael was reported to have taken a potion and within a few laps collapsed on the track, picked himself up and then in a daze, set off in the wrong direction.[5] Michael is said to have accused Warburton of "poisoning him", before he was taken to court for libel.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Check? What? Something that no one can confirm or deny from over 100 years ago?

I would have thought that this was obvious - one starts with the original reporting. Especially if one is idiotic enough to claim the rider was massively doped. Of that there should be contemporary evidence.

We have to choose which story to believe or choose to believe neither and stay neutral and going on the fact that you weren't around at the time of Choppy and Linton, I think that I can safely say that you have chosen your story.

And I think we can all safely say that you are advocating relativism. Truth is not a personal choice.

Weird thing though, that anyone would make up such damning slander about one man and doping in the 1800s.

There is nothing weird about it. This was the second half of the 1990s. Anti-doping advocates were desperate for victims and villains through which they could advance an emotional argument.

Is this true that he was banned from cycling?

"Warburton was banned from the sport after unproven claims of massive doping in the 1896 Bordeaux–Paris. His activities may have contributed to the early deaths of Arthur Linton, Tom Linton and Jimmy Michael"

Read the linked articles above - he was banned for allegedly nobbling Michael, colluding with bookmakers and other financial malpractices.

And This?

"Jimmy Michael of Wales, world cycling champion, died aged 27, en voyage to New York City. The cause of death was noted as delirium tremens, probably brought on by drinking.[14] Michael was managed by Choppy Warburton,[4] whose success was questioned, with claims that he drugged his charges. Michael was reported to have taken a potion and within a few laps collapsed on the track, picked himself up and then in a daze, set off in the wrong direction.[5] Michael is said to have accused Warburton of "poisoning him", before he was taken to court for libel.

See above and read the linked articles. The potion that so impacted Michael is believed by some to have been administered by or at the behest of Warburton's managerial rival Tom Eck.

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

So? I guess you'll problematize if anyone links ethnic background and height as well...

How dare anyone suggest that genes explain some of the difference between the heights of Asians and (Northern) Europeans.

What's next?! That intelligence might actually be a selector for what social class you end up in? That different populations have different levels of intelligence. Heresy!

We are drifting off topic but in the UK the social class you are born into is the main selector for the social class you end up in. Intelligence has unfortunately little to do with it

By the age of 7 middle class kids are ahead of working class kids and posh kids are in private schools. It only gets worse after that. Tuition fees stop poor kids from going to higher education. The old school tie approach to recruitment, etc. Social mobility is a dying concept in the UK (maybe it's different in Denmark?)

This just one recent example (and btw Justine Greening was sacked in this week's govt reshuffle for failing to increase inequality by introducing more grammar schools and free schools)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42212270

I'm not suggesting that the correlation is 1:1, just simply that there is a link between the two. Even if your parents are more important than your own level of intelligence, there would still be a correlation as long as intelligent people are more likely to move up in social class and unintelligent people are more likely to move down, since intelligence is a heritable trait.

While Netherlanders in general are taller than Italians, there are still plenty of tall Italians. And obviously, your nationality doesn't change your height, so after you've met someone and they then tell what nationality they are, you'd have no reason to suddenly think they are taller than you had reason to before. It's just a link. Same thing with social class and intelligence (under the presumption that intelligence is a selector for social class). While it can tell a lot about populations, it can only do so to a lesser extent for individuals.

I think free higher education (you even get £630 a month after tax just for being a student, so that you don't have to have any savings or side job) goes some of the way to explain why the social mobility is higher in Denmark, although I think that too has decreased. Some of which can be explained by higher level of meritocracy and (average) intelligence differences between social classes having increased as result, afaik.

 

[fmk_RoI]

One more link about Warburton. This is an interview I did with the American cycling historian Peter Nye https://www.podiumcafe.com/book-corner/2015/5/14/8605439/interview-peter-joffre-nye

 

[Wiggo's Package]

Re: Re:

So? I guess you'll problematize if anyone links ethnic background and height as well...

How dare anyone suggest that genes explain some of the difference between the heights of Asians and (Northern) Europeans.

What's next?! That intelligence might actually be a selector for what social class you end up in? That different populations have different levels of intelligence. Heresy!

We are drifting off topic but in the UK the social class you are born into is the main selector for the social class you end up in. Intelligence has unfortunately little to do with it

By the age of 7 middle class kids are ahead of working class kids and posh kids are in private schools. It only gets worse after that. Tuition fees stop poor kids from going to higher education. The old school tie approach to recruitment, etc. Social mobility is a dying concept in the UK (maybe it's different in Denmark?)

This just one recent example (and btw Justine Greening was sacked in this week's govt reshuffle for failing to increase inequality by introducing more grammar schools and free schools)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42212270

I'm not suggesting that the correlation is 1:1, just simply that there is a link between the two. Even if your parents are more important than your own level of intelligence, there would still be a correlation as long as intelligent people are more likely to move up in social class and unintelligent people are more likely to move down, since intelligence is a heritable trait.

While Netherlanders in general are taller than Italians, there are still plenty of tall Italians. And obviously, your nationality doesn't change your height, so after you've met someone and they then tell what nationality they are, you'd have no reason to suddenly think they are taller than you had reason to before. It's just a link. Same thing with social class and intelligence (under the presumption that intelligence is a selector for social class). While it can tell a lot about populations, it can only do so to a lesser extent for individuals.

I think free higher education (you even get £630 a month after tax just for being a student, so that you don't have to have any savings or side job) goes some of the way to explain why the social mobility is higher in Denmark, although I think that too has decreased. Some of which can be explained by higher level of meritocracy and (average) intelligence differences between social classes having increased as result, afaik.

Fair enough

I wonder if there's a correlation between people living in Scandinavian countries with progressive social policies having faith in the concept of social mobility and people living in UK with its regressive social policies being more cynical...? ;-)

Trying to bring this sidebar back on topic, I note that Scandinavian countries punch below their weight in the summer Olympics medals tables, unlike the Brits who do the opposite. Is that because Scandinavian government funding for sport is progressives and focuses on participation by all rather than focusing spending on elite athletes? Or do the Scandinavians just focus more on the winter Olympics?

For comparison, in the UK funding for sports participation for all has been slashed under the UK government's ongoing austerity policies, especially once you add in cuts to local government funding which has led to many swimming pools and sports centres closing. Meanwhile, lottery and central government funding for elite Olympic athletes has increased, one of the few funding streams to escape austerity cuts

The irony here is that lottery tickets are disproportionately bought by working class people who are statistically more likely to be sat on a sofa eating crap food rather than exercising. But at least every 4 years they can cheer Team GB's epic gold medal haul!

An even greater irony is that, while 7% of Brits go to private school, 30% of Brit medalists at the Rio Olympics went to private school. So working class people buying lottery tickets are actively participating in the UK's ongoing reduction in social mobility and increase in inequality

 

[simoni]

Re: Re:

So? I guess you'll problematize if anyone links ethnic background and height as well...

How dare anyone suggest that genes explain some of the difference between the heights of Asians and (Northern) Europeans.

What's next?! That intelligence might actually be a selector for what social class you end up in? That different populations have different levels of intelligence. Heresy!

We are drifting off topic but in the UK the social class you are born into is the main selector for the social class you end up in. Intelligence has unfortunately little to do with it

By the age of 7 middle class kids are ahead of working class kids and posh kids are in private schools. It only gets worse after that. Tuition fees stop poor kids from going to higher education. The old school tie approach to recruitment, etc. Social mobility is a dying concept in the UK (maybe it's different in Denmark?)

This just one recent example (and btw Justine Greening was sacked in this week's govt reshuffle for failing to increase inequality by introducing more grammar schools and free schools)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42212270

I'm not suggesting that the correlation is 1:1, just simply that there is a link between the two. Even if your parents are more important than your own level of intelligence, there would still be a correlation as long as intelligent people are more likely to move up in social class and unintelligent people are more likely to move down, since intelligence is a heritable trait.

While Netherlanders in general are taller than Italians, there are still plenty of tall Italians. And obviously, your nationality doesn't change your height, so after you've met someone and they then tell what nationality they are, you'd have no reason to suddenly think they are taller than you had reason to before. It's just a link. Same thing with social class and intelligence (under the presumption that intelligence is a selector for social class). While it can tell a lot about populations, it can only do so to a lesser extent for individuals.

I think free higher education (you even get £630 a month after tax just for being a student, so that you don't have to have any savings or side job) goes some of the way to explain why the social mobility is higher in Denmark, although I think that too has decreased. Some of which can be explained by higher level of meritocracy and (average) intelligence differences between social classes having increased as result, afaik.

Fair enough

I wonder if there's a correlation between people living in Scandinavian countries with progressive social policies having faith in the concept of social mobility and people living in UK with its regressive social policies being more cynical...? ;-)

Trying to bring this sidebar back on topic, I note that Scandinavian countries punch below their weight in the summer Olympics medals tables, unlike the Brits who do the opposite. Is that because Scandinavian government funding for sport is progressives and focuses on participation by all rather than focusing spending on elite athletes? Or do the Scandinavians just focus more on the winter Olympics?

For comparison, in the UK funding for sports participation for all has been slashed under the UK government's ongoing austerity policies, especially once you add in cuts to local government funding which has led to many swimming pools and sports centres closing. Meanwhile, lottery and central government funding for elite Olympic athletes has increased, one of the few funding streams to escape austerity cuts

The irony here is that lottery tickets are disproportionately bought by working class people who are statistically more likely to be sat on a sofa eating crap food rather than exercising. But at least every 4 years they can cheer Team GB's epic gold medal haul!

An even greater irony is that, while 7% of Brits go to private school, 30% of Brit medalists at the Rio Olympics went to private school. So working class people buying lottery tickets are actively participating in the UK's ongoing reduction in social mobility and increase in inequality

Dunno about Scandinavia - there's about 21million people there in total (about 1/3 of the UK for example) spread across multiple countries so they don't even have the benefit of a centralised system for sports development/coaching/excellence etc. I'm not sure that your suggestion that they punch below their weight in summer olympics stacks up. It should be obivous why they do so well in winter though and perhaps that colours our judgement on how strong they really are.

 

[Benotti69]

UKAD not giving information freely to journalists as requested, but when leaked, then after having their hands forced releasing it.

This is not the work of an ADA that fans can trust and believe.

Well done Dan Roan.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

UKAD not giving information freely to journalists as requested, but when leaked, then after having their hands forced releasing it.

This is not the work of an ADA that fans can trust and believe.

Well done Dan Roan.

Could someone who's been paying attention explain something to me? I thought UKAD declined an FOI request for the letter claiming no public interest but then British Cycling (in the same week they condemned making Froome's AAF public) ignored them and released the UKAD letter anyway along with their response via their website (so chapeau Julie Harrington - our kind of hypocrite). What then have UKAD released?

 

[Wiggo's Package]

Re: Re:

UKAD not giving information freely to journalists as requested, but when leaked, then after having their hands forced releasing it.

This is not the work of an ADA that fans can trust and believe.

Well done Dan Roan.

Could someone who's been paying attention explain something to me? I thought UKAD declined an FOI request for the letter claiming no public interest but then British Cycling (in the same week they condemned making Froome's AAF public) ignored them and released the UKAD letter anyway along with their response via their website (so chapeau Julie Harrington - our kind of hypocrite). What then have UKAD released?

I believe the timeline is someone leaked it to Dan Roan and only when he contacted BC for a quote did BC decide to release it

EDIT: UKAD didn't want the letter released. That "thanks for your co-operation" line :lol:

 

[fmk_RoI]

Let's see if UKAD's comms improves as a consequence of this

She said: "The team will play a pivotal role in supporting UKAD’s vision to inspire confidence in clean sport. We want to make anti-doping easier to understand for our stakeholders and the public, while of course protecting the integrity of our ongoing cases and investigations.

"We are looking ahead to several major communications projects over the coming months, including the publication of our new organisational strategy, improving our online presence and running the second Clean Sport Week, which takes place in May this year."

 

[Wiggo's Package]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/42723660

From the Icarus guys:

'Russian whistleblower Grigory Rodchenkov suspected that "several" British athletes were doping, according to the man who helped him flee to the United States. Bryan Fogel, the director of Icarus, the Oscar-nominated film which revealed the extent of Russia's state-sponsored conspiracy, told BBC Sport that his friend had mentioned competitors who he was "fairly positive" were cheating. Rodchenkov, who is now in hiding, also criticised testing at the London 2012 Games, describing it as "a mess".

"I certainly wouldn't want to name names," said Fogel. "But I know in Grigory's mind there were many athletes just purely on the scientific level - not on the urine-swapping level - that he was fairly positive were doping, based on testing irregularities. And without getting into names, because that's not my place to do that, there were several British athletes that he brought up to me." '

 

[thehog]

Re:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/42723660

From the Icarus guys:

'Russian whistleblower Grigory Rodchenkov suspected that "several" British athletes were doping, according to the man who helped him flee to the United States. Bryan Fogel, the director of Icarus, the Oscar-nominated film which revealed the extent of Russia's state-sponsored conspiracy, told BBC Sport that his friend had mentioned competitors who he was "fairly positive" were cheating. Rodchenkov, who is now in hiding, also criticised testing at the London 2012 Games, describing it as "a mess".

"I certainly wouldn't want to name names," said Fogel. "But I know in Grigory's mind there were many athletes just purely on the scientific level - not on the urine-swapping level - that he was fairly positive were doping, based on testing irregularities. And without getting into names, because that's not my place to do that, there were several British athletes that he brought up to me." '

Honestly, this is too funny! I love how the UKAD touted themselves as the best in the world that no one could dope under their watch. What do we find? Shitty old lab with outdated equipment in a chaotic state.

 

[iejeecee]

At this rate Grigory Rodchenkov will be inspecting the ocean floor from a very close distance in the near future. It's all good and well being in a witness protection program outing those dirty ruskies, but when you start outing the people providing the protection.....

 

[Rollthedice]

Re: Re:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/42723660

From the Icarus guys:

'Russian whistleblower Grigory Rodchenkov suspected that "several" British athletes were doping, according to the man who helped him flee to the United States. Bryan Fogel, the director of Icarus, the Oscar-nominated film which revealed the extent of Russia's state-sponsored conspiracy, told BBC Sport that his friend had mentioned competitors who he was "fairly positive" were cheating. Rodchenkov, who is now in hiding, also criticised testing at the London 2012 Games, describing it as "a mess".

"I certainly wouldn't want to name names," said Fogel. "But I know in Grigory's mind there were many athletes just purely on the scientific level - not on the urine-swapping level - that he was fairly positive were doping, based on testing irregularities. And without getting into names, because that's not my place to do that, there were several British athletes that he brought up to me." '

Honestly, this is too funny! I love how the UKAD touted themselves as the best in the world that no one could dope under their watch. What do we find? ****** old lab with outdated equipment in a chaotic state.

London 2012 Olympics: drug cheats are set to face most advanced anti-doping procedures in Games history.

Without divulging too many of their testing secrets, the scientists unveiled the new Games testing laboratory in Harlow. The equipment, which was supplied by the pharmaceutical giant GlaxoSmithKline at a cost of £20 million, can reliably check for more than 240 prohibited substances in less than 24 hours.

Witty said: “Professor Cowan is bringing his King’s lab team here and they are completely independent and the International Olympic Committee is completely happy with it all.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympics/9026400/London-2012-Olympics-drug-cheats-are-set-to-face-most-advanced-anti-doping-procedures-in-Games-history.html

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/42723660

From the Icarus guys:

'Russian whistleblower Grigory Rodchenkov suspected that "several" British athletes were doping, according to the man who helped him flee to the United States. Bryan Fogel, the director of Icarus, the Oscar-nominated film which revealed the extent of Russia's state-sponsored conspiracy, told BBC Sport that his friend had mentioned competitors who he was "fairly positive" were cheating. Rodchenkov, who is now in hiding, also criticised testing at the London 2012 Games, describing it as "a mess".

"I certainly wouldn't want to name names," said Fogel. "But I know in Grigory's mind there were many athletes just purely on the scientific level - not on the urine-swapping level - that he was fairly positive were doping, based on testing irregularities. And without getting into names, because that's not my place to do that, there were several British athletes that he brought up to me." '

Honestly, this is too funny! I love how the UKAD touted themselves as the best in the world that no one could dope under their watch. What do we find? ****** old lab with outdated equipment in a chaotic state.

London 2012 Olympics: drug cheats are set to face most advanced anti-doping procedures in Games history.

Without divulging too many of their testing secrets, the scientists unveiled the new Games testing laboratory in Harlow. The equipment, which was supplied by the pharmaceutical giant GlaxoSmithKline at a cost of £20 million, can reliably check for more than 240 prohibited substances in less than 24 hours.

Witty said: “Professor Cowan is bringing his King’s lab team here and they are completely independent and the International Olympic Committee is completely happy with it all.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympics/9026400/London-2012-Olympics-drug-cheats-are-set-to-face-most-advanced-anti-doping-procedures-in-Games-history.html

Love it! Before he was a asleep at the wheel at the IAAF, Seb Coe was enabling doping for all at the 2012 Olympics

 

[BullsFan22]

LOL. Hollywood filmakers.

Give specific names, have Reedie, McLaren, Pound, Seppelt and all those other holier than thou, self righteous hypocrites criticizing those named dopers, ban them for life from the Olympics, take away their Olympic medals, ban GBR, make them prove, individually, that they are clean, make the Brits compete as 'neutrals' at the next Olympics, deny UKAD the license to do testing, fine UK Athletics....

That's for starters.

 

[macbindle]

LOL. Hollywood filmakers.

Give specific names, have Reedie, McLaren, Pound, Seppelt and all those other holier than thou, self righteous hypocrites criticizing those named dopers, ban them for life from the Olympics, take away their Olympic medals, ban GBR, make them prove, individually, that they are clean, make the Brits compete as 'neutrals' at the next Olympics, deny UKAD the license to do testing, fine UK Athletics....

That's for starters.

Just saying...