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Bruyneel: Tactical Genius?

May 25, 2009
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When he was DS of Armstrong's teams and won all those Tours de France he was hailed as a tactical genius. One wonders however whether almost anyone would look like a tactical genius if they were managing the (by some margin) greatest stage racer of his generation. I know he also won the tour with Contador, but let us be honest about that one: the whole result was messed up by Rasmussen (who worked with Contador to distance Evans); effectively Contador inherited the win and in my view the moral victor was really Evans. Tactically the best stage race win by one of his teams was Savoldelli's Giro (where, interestingly, Bruyneel was not actually on the race). Why? Because Savoldelli was not demonstrably head and shoulders above the rest of the field and the team therefore had to use his strength carefully and calulate things much more than with Lance's tours.

On paper Astana had a very strong squad in this year's Giro and yet their main man finished in anonymity and they didn't even win a single stage as compensation. I would guess that when it came down to it Menchov and Di Luca were some distance better than their rivals, but the way Astana rode it didn't look like they ever really had faith in Leipheimer. What, one wonders was the point of, for example, Popovych's attacks, when he would have been better looking after Leipheimer? One might also suggest that Bruyneel is all sweetness and light when he and Lance are winning, but something of a bad loser when things don't go his way. Its all very well complaining about the course, but surely the famous and much vaunted Bruyneel/Armstrong preparation meant they knew the course intimately before hand? Certainly one would expect that if one believes the publicity that was put about regarding the no stone unturned approach he and Armstrong devised in their heyday.

One wonders now whether other teams will be quite so frightened of Astana as they might have been come July. Armstrong I would suggest won't be strong enough to win, but he might be strong enough to mess up the support that Contador needs. Add to this the likely non-particpation of Kloden whose past it seems is finally catching up with him. Did Bruyneel not have his suspicions about Kloden? The man who moved from T-Mobile when the internal anti doping regime arrived and went with that famously clean rider Vinokourov to Astana instead, despite the leader status he would have had at T-Mobile. Another piece of tactical brliiance on the part of Bruynel was his taking on Basso when he was under-suspicion.

Like Armstrong, Bruyneel has been a great self-publicist, but I think recent events are sugesting that one of his talents has been to propogate myths about his brilliance.
 
May 26, 2009
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I think he is very much over-hyped. Even more than Lance Armstrong. You are very true in saying that it really doesn't take much of a tactician to win with the best rider of the time. The only tactical "masterpiece" we saw from him was the rider on Alpe d'Huez when Armstrong bluffed T-Mobile into believing that he was about to get dropped and made them ride at the front all day. Then Rubiera blew everyone out of the water and Armstrong finished the package with an attack and a solo TT. Of course it was tactically wise to ride a fast pace before a mountain to tire out the pure climbers but again it was easy when they had a rider like Lance.

I find for example Bjarne Riis a much better tactician of the high profile DSs. You need only look at the last Tour de France to see proof of that. Of course it's finally up to the riders to do well but if you have bad tactics you might well lose with a great rider. I think that all the DSs in the ProTour teams are good at what they do but I really find Bruyneel over-rated. He's not bad, as there really was nothing else they could do with Levi on this Giro except maybe aim for a stage win, but he's not exceptional. If you can't stay with the main favourites on the final climb there's pretty much nothing you can do about it.
 
I agree with both the first two posts (there may be more by the time i post this), with the exception of the Giro recon. Hasn't Armstrong been looking at the Tour route instead?

But Brunyeel reminds me of the NBA coach Phil Jackson; it's easy to win when you're coaching the Bulls w/ Jordan & Pippen or the Lakers w/ Kobe and Shaq.
I think I could have won seven Tours with Armstrong and the various teams they built up. If anything, Brunyeel's genius lies in his abillity to spend top dollar to hire the best super domestiques.
 
Bruyneel is so genius, he managed to do nothing in the Giro with perhaps the strongest team on paper for the mountains. (also strongest in team classification).

They could've tried more... they done nothing, but following. If that's tactical genius, I laugh.
Bruyneel isn't a genius, he just had the strongest stage-racer for 7 years, and then shortly after got again the strongest stage-racer (contador). That's a matter of getting the right talent.

However, it could be his (Contador) reigns ends already. Andy Schleck will certainly challenge him
 
May 25, 2009
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mr. tibbs said:
I agree with both the first two posts (there may be more by the time i post this), with the exception of the Giro recon.

I wasn't suggesting that Armstrong would have reconnoitred the Giro route neccessarily, but given the noise he always made about preparation, one might have expected Bruyneel to at least know the key stages such as today's TT; if, that is, he was serious about Leipheimer as a contender for overall victory.
 

whiteboytrash

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Mar 17, 2009
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I'd say getting paid 2million for doing sweet FA is genius ! Menchov won't even get a quarter of that amount & he won the darn race. Well done Hog !
 

whiteboytrash

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I'd say getting paid 2million for doing sweet FA is genius ! Menchov won't even get a quarter of that amount & he won the darn race. Well done Hog !
 
May 26, 2009
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
Bruyneel is so genius, he managed to do nothing in the Giro with perhaps the strongest team on paper for the mountains. (also strongest in team classification).

They could've tried more... they done nothing, but following. If that's tactical genius, I laugh.
Bruyneel isn't a genius, he just had the strongest stage-racer for 7 years, and then shortly after got again the strongest stage-racer (contador). That's a matter of getting the right talent.

However, it could be his (Contador) reigns ends already. Andy Schleck will certainly challenge him

Can't really see Andy Schleck challenging any one in the TdF if he doesn't learn to time trial. He could've challenged Contador two years ago when he couldn't TT but now that he's great at that too there's really nothing Andy can do if he can't completely crack Contador in the mountains.
 
I'd say the most genius thing Bruyneel did was to buy over all the best competitors to ride for Lance instead of against him. As far as tactics goes then he found a concept that worked for them but I don't know if I would call it genius. It was more likegoing back to the basics of years past where most teams rode exclusively for their captain. So that wasn't something revolutionary but rather a tried and proven concept.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Factor in retaining the creme de la creme of preparateurs on an exclusive contract and you have a team running highly tuned Ferrari engines that no one else can match.
 

Eva Maria

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May 24, 2009
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There have been two key tactics for winning the Tour over the last 15 years

1. Increase power to weight ratio as much as medically possible.
2. Don't get caught doing #1

In both of these tactics The Hog has been one of the best. The Tour is won by horsepower, not tactics.

One day classics's are where tactic's mean something.....how is Johann's record there? No so good
 
May 26, 2009
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Wattie said:
I know he also won the tour with Contador, but let us be honest about that one: the whole result was messed up by Rasmussen (who worked with Contador to distance Evans); effectively Contador inherited the win and in my view the moral victor was really Evans.

I take it you're an Evans fan? Without knowing Evans, I'd bet if you asked him if he was the "moral" victory of the Tour in '07 he'd laugh and make sure you were nowhere near his dog :D
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Well the Postal/ Disco team for Lance was by far the strongest in the mountains and they were really good in the TTT (in their later years.) Postal/ Disco were able to give the entire team their own frozen packed red cells (400-600cc) or big 800cc whole blood refills. Not all the teams could do this for their riders and some didnt have a clue... That was crucial and in fact Ullrich in my opinion would have had a far greater chance of attacking in 2003 if Lances team wasnt so incredibly powerful. Lance still had plenty of guys in the lead group with him when Jan could have made his "move" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l39ahBFGnuk

There is this Postal/ Disco/ Astana now formulative "medical program" that none of the other teams could figure out. And it think their secret(s) are still there if they win the Tour again. I never saw Lance win the Dauphine after 2003, and he was never really stronger than he has been this early on in the year. "Lancer" has certainly been able to get his "crit" (hematocrit) above 50% for the stages thus far. Because all his major competition sure the hell has! And if all had low crits Lance certainly would not do all that well with his natural V02 max of 78-80.

Might not be top 50 if everybody was clean...
 
RdBiker said:
Can't really see Andy Schleck challenging any one in the TdF if he doesn't learn to time trial. He could've challenged Contador two years ago when he couldn't TT but now that he's great at that too there's really nothing Andy can do if he can't completely crack Contador in the mountains.
I beg your pardon? Contador couldn't TT?

I think you should search up Contador's TT results. Contador was ALWAYS a time trial specialist, he only lacks stamina for long time trials, but that is something that comes with the years.

It's such a general misconception that people think Contador once couldn't TT. He was always world class. His first big victory was a TT, his first Pro Tour victory? Also a TT..

I get so annoyed when people say Contador once 'could not tt'
 
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
Bruyneel is so genius, he managed to do nothing in the Giro with perhaps the strongest team on paper for the mountains. (also strongest in team classification).

i actually think there are very few who showed any tactival nouse in this giro.. menchov, virtually no team support, tactics where to sit on di lucas bum.. won the giro..
di luca, tactic to attack at every opportunity, at hope for the best with not too much support..
Liquigas.. well, nuff said really..
Astana, tactic was right, levis form was an issue
the rest.. well.. not much to say...

only ones who really came out of the giro with any credit as a team where columbia.. they won the TTT they wanted to win, they won the sprint stages they wanted to win, and EbH did the rest (who was it tipped EbH to do very well this giro... i wonder.. :D)
 
dimspace said:
di luca, tactic to attack at every opportunity, at hope for the best with not too much support..

LPR did have a tactic of making sure there were bonus seconds to be raced for on most stages where they thought Di Luca would have a shot at gaining some.

There were a few time when a break could have been left to fight it out but because bonus seconds was so plentiful the entire giro there was a big incentive to fight for them.
 
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well, you know my thoughts on bonus seconds... bloomin ridiculous.. the giro/tour should be won on time, not some *******ised time invented by the organisers...

first week of the tour when its the traditional sprinting, yes, ok, middle of the tour in the mountains, bonus's for winning.. get out of here.. you wanna make up 20 seconds on an opponent, get your **** into gear and get up the hill 20 seconds in front of him then.. :(

(and due to over zealous censoring on this forum we are no longer allowed to throw a cigarette **** in the ashtray... what are we? 3 years old or summat?)
 
dimspace said:
well, you know my thoughts on bonus seconds... bloomin ridiculous.. the giro/tour should be won on time, not some *******ised time invented by the organisers...

I totally agree. The tour usually does it the right way when they only have it the first week for the sprinters to have a shot at the yellow jersey. Having seconds in the uphill finishes etc is just stupid.
 
dimspace said:
menchov, virtually no team support, tactics where to sit on di lucas bum.. won the giro..

That's just bull****. Rabobank worked very hard to make sure that Menchov wasn't isolated until the last climb. That is a very tough job for a team with the maglia rosa, but it is crucial for the win. It's not surprising that they chose to let Ardila and Ten Dam relax on the last climb, since only the best of the best can counter an attack by Di Luca, Sastre and Basso, anyway.

di luca, tactic to attack at every opportunity, at hope for the best with not too much support..

LPR worked very hard to get Di Luca all those bonus seconds (including some futile attempts). They also defended his jersey well, when he had it. On his own, he wouldn't have come second.

only ones who really came out of the giro with any credit as a team where columbia

I think you are really underestimating some of the teams. There are only so many superstars in cycling. It's not realistic to have more than 2 or 3 teams that are superstrong (currently Astana and CSC). Even those teams seem to be able to field a superteam only for the Tour. Just because the other teams didn't ride like a superteam doesn't mean that they did badly. In fact, teams like Rabobank and LPR deserve even more credit for getting great results with a non-superteam.

I really think that you have completely unrealistic standards.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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whiteboytrash said:
I'd say getting paid 2million for doing sweet FA is genius ! Menchov won't even get a quarter of that amount & he won the darn race. Well done Hog !

Maybe, BUT Menchow didn't bring the publicity with him that Lance did! Let's be honest...manny only watched the Giro because of Lance! The real money comes from broadcasting rights! And Lance had more publicity than Pelizotti, Menchow and Di Luca combined! He's the Tiger Woods or Jordan of the cycling world:cool:
 
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
Bruyneel is so genius, he managed to do nothing in the Giro with perhaps the strongest team on paper for the mountains. (also strongest in team classification).

They could've tried more... they done nothing, but following. If that's tactical genius, I laugh.
Bruyneel isn't a genius, he just had the strongest stage-racer for 7 years, and then shortly after got again the strongest stage-racer (contador). That's a matter of getting the right talent.

However, it could be his (Contador) reigns ends already. Andy Schleck will certainly challenge him

bruyneel wins 8 times a row when the tour was all that mattered to him/them, then they are denied the right to defend the tour so the giro and vuelta become imortant, and he wins both of those.

now he loses a race that is principle rider is not even in and suddenly he's a nobody and a has been.

you guys need a better past time.

that's rich.
 
May 25, 2009
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BYOP88 said:
I take it you're an Evans fan? Without knowing Evans, I'd bet if you asked him if he was the "moral" victory of the Tour in '07 he'd laugh and make sure you were nowhere near his dog :D

Actually no I'm not a big fan of Evans; I was quite pleased when Sastre turned the tables on him last year.

But my point is that Contador actually stated during the Tour he won that he and Rasmussen had worked together on two mountain stages in the Pyrenees to distance Evans. So I'm suggesting that without Rasmussen there Contador at that stage in his career might well not have been able to put the time he did into Evans without help. With the result being so close the Rasmussen factor was probably significant. In some respects I think that the result for that Tour is pretty meaningless becuase the way it developed was so much influenced by Rasmussen that his withdrawl made a mockery of it all. Obviously the same result would have ensued if he had simply crashed out of the lead on the penultimarte stage or something, but a crash is just part of racing (Fignon probably won his first tour becuase Pascal Simon crashed out), whereas what took Rasmussen out shouldn't be.
 
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BigBoat said:
Well the Postal/ Disco team for Lance was by far the strongest in the mountains and they were really good in the TTT (in their later years.) Postal/ Disco were able to give the entire team their own frozen packed red cells (400-600cc) or big 800cc whole blood refills. Not all the teams could do this for their riders and some didnt have a clue... That was crucial and in fact Ullrich in my opinion would have had a far greater chance of attacking in 2003 if Lances team wasnt so incredibly powerful. Lance still had plenty of guys in the lead group with him when Jan could have made his "move" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l39ahBFGnuk

There is this Postal/ Disco/ Astana now formulative "medical program" that none of the other teams could figure out. And it think their secret(s) are still there if they win the Tour again. I never saw Lance win the Dauphine after 2003, and he was never really stronger than he has been this early on in the year. "Lancer" has certainly been able to get his "crit" (hematocrit) above 50% for the stages thus far. Because all his major competition sure the hell has! And if all had low crits Lance certainly would not do all that well with his natural V02 max of 78-80.

Might not be top 50 if everybody was clean...

this is what were in for if astana does well. if they do well it will be because they still have the secret formula nobody else has.:rolleyes:
riders come and go to other teams and they still don't tell.
it's probably because they're blindfolded, strapped down and injected. right?

more conspiracy theory.
 
May 26, 2009
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
I beg your pardon? Contador couldn't TT?

I think you should search up Contador's TT results. Contador was ALWAYS a time trial specialist, he only lacks stamina for long time trials, but that is something that comes with the years.

It's such a general misconception that people think Contador once couldn't TT. He was always world class. His first big victory was a TT, his first Pro Tour victory? Also a TT..

I get so annoyed when people say Contador once 'could not tt'

Apparently I should have been more careful with my words since you got so upset with it... By saying that Contador couldn't TT I didn't mean that he finished dead last but that he consistently lost to the specialists by several minutes. And now that he has improved his time trialing he should not lose at all to riders like Evans and should make up so much time to a rider like Andy Schleck that he has no way to gain enough time back in the mountains.

I never really considered Contador as a time trial specialist, more as a climbing specialist. I wouldn't say that winning a TT at the Tour of Poland makes you a specialist, but what ever you say. Contador has always been good in the mountains so it's no surprise that he has done well in TTs with hilly courses but as we saw in the Giro a hilly TT course doesn't really show a TT specialist.

But I do think you agree with me that Contador has improved his TTing skills in the past year and after that he'll be quite unstoppable in the GTs.
 
jackhammer111 said:
bruyneel wins 8 times a row when the tour was all that mattered to him/them, then they are denied the right to defend the tour so the giro and vuelta become imortant, and he wins both of those.

now he loses a race that is principle rider is not even in and suddenly he's a nobody and a has been.

you guys need a better past time.

that's rich.

I dunno, I've always felt this way about Brunyeel. With the amazing teams that Postal/Disco fielded (this owes to money) and the strength of Armstrong, who wouldnt have directed that group to seven Tour wins? Ditto with Contador, who had no meaningful support in his Giro win after Kloden abandoned and whose closest competitor at the Vuelta was his domestique.

I think the general idea here is that the rider is the most important piece of the puzzle. You should be excited, this thread is really praising Armstrong's dominance.

EDIT: Maybe "praising" should instead be read as "acknowledging."