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Bruyneel: Tactical Genius?

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Apr 12, 2009
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Bruyneel is not a tactical Genius he had the best rider he is a great scout of talent, He is a great Manager he chooses the right personnel that allow him to succeed. Tactically for this Giro he was stuck he had Levi who is severly overrated, LA whose fitness wasn't right, his tactic coming into Giro was for levi to do the menchov method, which was get the jersey after the TT and then hang on in the mountains, that obliviously failed after the TT, We have to look at this they came in with a strong squad, but it is still the B team, they will win come july barring any unforeseen events, It won't be because of tactics but due to having great talent so while he isn't the best DS of All time he probably is the best General Manager. As for this Giro I agree with Dimspace the only team that was tactically superior was Columbia, no other team showed tactical brilliance.
 
dimspace said:
i actually think there are very few who showed any tactival nouse in this giro.. menchov, virtually no team support, tactics where to sit on di lucas bum.. won the giro..
di luca, tactic to attack at every opportunity, at hope for the best with not too much support..
Liquigas.. well, nuff said really..
Astana, tactic was right, levis form was an issue
the rest.. well.. not much to say...

only ones who really came out of the giro with any credit as a team where columbia.. they won the TTT they wanted to win, they won the sprint stages they wanted to win, and EbH did the rest (who was it tipped EbH to do very well this giro... i wonder.. :D)


I would have to say that Savio of Diquigiovanni has to be given some form of credit for his continued tactical expertise. His team, Pro Continental that it is, consistently shows up at the Giro and makes its presence known by not only animating the racing but also factoring in the final gc (except for this year), and winning stages. They consistently had riders in the more successful breaks throughout the 3 weeks and it paid off for them. All this inspite of Simoni's age finally catching up with him.
 
franciep10 said:
Bruyneel is not a tactical Genius he had the best rider he is a great scout of talent, He is a great Manager he chooses the right personnel that allow him to succeed. Tactically for this Giro he was stuck he had Levi who is severly overrated, LA whose fitness wasn't right, his tactic coming into Giro was for levi to do the menchov method, which was get the jersey after the TT and then hang on in the mountains, that obliviously failed after the TT, We have to look at this they came in with a strong squad, but it is still the B team, they will win come july barring any unforeseen events, It won't be because of tactics but due to having great talent so while he isn't the best DS of All time he probably is the best General Manager. As for this Giro I agree with Dimspace the only team that was tactically superior was Columbia, no other team showed tactical brilliance.
+1. Agree. Everynow and then I hear on the news that the best coaches are the best recruiters. Somehow I feel that way too in this case. Riis would have probably won the same GT's with the same teams.
 
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Anonymous

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Lets face it, the moniker of "Genius" in terms of cycling tactics is truly a rare thing, and for the most part relates only to a decision in a single stage or race. I have never seen a single DS who just out thought all of the others and translated that into his riders winning because if his decisions. Cycling isn't rocket science, its complicated, but the riders ultimately decide. I would suggest however that whey your rider wins a GT, you have managed effectively just as franciep says.

Regarding The Hog as a "tactical genius" is something postulated by USPS/Disco/Astana fans and TV shows on Discovery. The physiology of the riders decides the "tactisc" used during a race. The one observation I have is that whey your tactic is to put someone like LL in the position of Leader, and you are playing only that card, you have chosen poorly as far as "tactics" because there are other aspects of the race worthy of consideration. Astana did win the team competition, but really, how hard was that when you never had to put your team on the front?
 
Mar 18, 2009
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You want a real tactical genius then look at Cyrille Guimard - he won 7 TdFs, plus Giro and Vuelta and was the DS Hinault credited with his greatest wins like L-B-L. To my certain knowledge, Bruyneel has never won a Classic as a DS and the Giro win was down to Sean Yates.

Not only a great DS but a great rider too, pushing Merckx at the Tour and winning multiple TdF stages and the points jersey in the Vuelta.
 
elapid said:
I assume you didn't watch last year's TdF. The only reason Sastre won was because of team tactics on the stage to Alpe d'Huez. He did nothing before or after and was more or less protected in the peloton drafting away and conserving his energy. His win was definitely team tactics.

Admittedly while riding for a strong team Sastre was riding as a super domestique in the mountains once Frank Schleck was the race leader. I recall on more than one occasion Sastre fetching bottles on climbs from the team car so his "drafting and conserving energy" weren't being done in this instances.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Angliru said:
Admittedly while riding for a strong team Sastre was riding as a super domestique in the mountains once Frank Schleck was the race leader. I recall on more than one occasion Sastre fetching bottles on climbs from the team car so his "drafting and conserving energy" weren't being done in this instances.

Good point. But it still doesn't change the fact that he won the TdF because of team tactics and not because he was the strongest rider.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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To be honest, I have never heard of a rider who was in yellow on the final day of the tour, while all of his team mates had abandoned the race already...
 
Mar 18, 2009
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No Way...

The term genius is thrown around way too much this day and age. It seems anyone who has any success, in any chosen field gets the label of genius. How about calling him a very successful DS? Genius? Are you kidding me? Has he written a great piece of music? Has he solved a centuries old mathmatical theory? Has he invented a new computer operating system? I don't think so. All the DS can do is put the riders out there and ultimately they win or loose. Of course the DS is involved, but he is not turning the pedals. Also, get rid of the radios!! See how many of these great DS remain so? Just sayin.

Actually, I think the good DS in the sport are very good at managing personalities and egos...this goes a long way toward team spirit, etc.
 
TRDean said:
The term genius is thrown around way too much this day and age. It seems anyone who has any success, in any chosen field gets the label of genius. How about calling him a very successful DS? Genius? Are you kidding me? Has he written a great piece of music? Has he solved a centuries old mathmatical theory? Has he invented a new computer operating system? I don't think so. All the DS can do is put the riders out there and ultimately they win or loose. Of course the DS is involved, but he is not turning the pedals. Also, get rid of the radios!! See how many of these great DS remain so? Just sayin.

Actually, I think the good DS in the sport are very good at managing personalities and egos...this goes a long way toward team spirit, etc.
Let me tell you about the great chemical formula that him and Mr. Ferrari came up with to have success in their teams ...

(I could not resist the temptation)
 
May 25, 2009
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TRDean said:
The term genius is thrown around way too much this day and age. It seems anyone who has any success, in any chosen field gets the label of genius. How about calling him a very successful DS? Genius? Are you kidding me? Has he written a great piece of music? Has he solved a centuries old mathmatical theory? Has he invented a new computer operating system? I don't think so. All the DS can do is put the riders out there and ultimately they win or loose. Of course the DS is involved, but he is not turning the pedals. Also, get rid of the radios!! See how many of these great DS remain so? Just sayin.

Actually, I think the good DS in the sport are very good at managing personalities and egos...this goes a long way toward team spirit, etc.

Agreed: the number of actual geniuses in the the history of the human race is very small indeed. Nor would I want to call someone in a field as relatively trivial as sport a genius. However I used the term becuase I have heard it applied to Bruyneel. Ultimately the term gets used in quite a loose way in some contexts and I think we know what we mean when we use it in that loose way. I don't think when someone calls Bruyneel a tactical genius that they are actually suggesting greatness equivalent to that of Newton or Galileo. As (the authentic genius) Ludwig Wittgenstein suggested words don't inherently mean anything, they are only meaningful as part of particular language games, so the context in which we use the term genuis effectively modifies what it means.
 
franciep10 said:
Bruyneel ... tactically for this Giro he was stuck he had Levi who is severly overrated, LA whose fitness wasn't right, his tactic coming into Giro was for levi to do the menchov method, which was get the jersey after the TT and then hang on in the mountains, that obliviously failed after the TT....

Yes, and left them little options. But I'd like to make another comment: I think Levi could have made the podium, or maybe, possibly won this year Giro if they had focused his season around it for preparation. But they didn't do that. He was fairly peaked at the ToC, then won Castilla y León. Then as prep for the Giro, instead of either resting at alitude, or race against the pros in the Romandie, they decided to race the Gila against low-income American pros and Cat 1's then quickly fly to Italy. To me all of this showed they had no real plan for Levi at the Giro until probably late April. Or they made a serious mistake thinking he could carry peak form for four months.

bianchigirl said:
You want a real tactical genius then look at Cyrille Guimard - he won 7 TdFs, plus Giro and Vuelta and was the DS Hinault credited with his greatest wins like L-B-L.

Lemond has very high praise for him, as did Fignon, and a young Bobby Julich. Guimard is everything you say.

whiteboytrash said:
Watching the Bruyneel / Hincapie tactical blunder show at Paris Roubaix each year was a season highlight for me. Calamitous.

You must admit that George has had bad luck as much as anything else. He's had several flats, a broken frame. Compare this to Tom Boonen who hasn't had a single mechanical in any of his PRs. Not saying that George would have 3 PR wins otherwise, just that it wasn't all "tactical blunders" as you say.

George actually did win Ghent while riding for Postal. But before someone says it, yes, there were some crashes and Van Bondt was out. Still, it was a very tough edition with a lot of wind and rain, and George was in the right position, rode very well, and won the race.
 
whiteboytrash said:
Watching the Bruyneel / Hincapie tactical blunder show at Paris Roubaix each year was a season highlight for me. Calamitous.

Actually, I think Hincapie's failure to win PR is no more attributable to the DS in the car than Armstrong's seven Tour wins.

The only tactical advice that could have helped Hincapie is either "Don't let your stuff break" or "Don't enter the velodrome with Boonen." So the failures in the race were that Hincapie (or his equipment) just wasn't strong enough to win.

Unrelated to WBT's post:

Earlier in this thread, Mellow mentioned Napoleon as a genius. In the case of Brunyeel, it's helpful to think of the Belgian as Napoleon and the Armstrong/Postal/Disco cocktail as The Grande Armee. At the head of that team, even the unfortunate Mack could have taken Moscow/won the Tour.
 
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avantage said:
Bonus seconds stupid?
Were you watching a different race??

on mountain stages, yes i think they are.. the giro, tour whatever should be won on time, not on some feigned version of time with adjustments along the way... thats just my personal opinion as is yours.. neither of us are right nor wrong.. ;)
 
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Thoughtforfood said:
Again with the reading comprehension thing. My post was not in regards to any particular teams tactical "genius" during the Giro. It was about your demonstrated lack of perspective regarding tactics in general. I mean, you stated that Astana's tactics were right, it was just Levi's fitness? Really? You think JB did a good job tactics wise in the Giro? You are a veiled fanboy who hides behind things like "no positive tests after 1999" and the like. If only you would put the rest of the pieces together on things, you would be able to see clearly what is staring you in the face. As for me delineating all of it, there are books and articles written on the subject. I have read them. I am not a library, nor am I your research assistant. I am sorry your feelings get hurt when you write things that are clearly ignorant of the information provided in those books and articles and I suggest that you clearly don't know what you are talking about. I am not going to do the heavy lifting for you. The answers are out there and I didn't compile them myself, I just read them.

In other words, its shut up or shut up time.

snipes, and inuendo are kind of my thing.....thanks for noticing.

ok firstly this is about tactics.. not wether lance doped in 2000, 2001 etc.. you really need to learn to drop that...
secondly, you dont upset me, to be honest i feel sorry for you
secondly regarding astana tactics, i did not say there tactics where genius during the giro, i actually said that i didnt think any team did a great job tactically.. as far as astana went, if levi had been more in form, i think they did have riders there to support him.. he just wasnt up to it..

but anyway.. i dont actually have to listen to you.. you may think that what you say is gospel and correct, personally i think you know not half as much as you would like to think.. and when all said and done, everything is just opinion..

i now going to mute you, because frankly i would happily say just what i think and i think that would probably be to the detrement of this forum..

some people can be part right some of the time, some people can be part right all of the time, and some people can be all right, part of the time..
you cant be right, all of the time.. (however much youd like to think you are)
 
Mar 18, 2009
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I think that's why they took out the time bonuses on the mountain stages in the Tour - besides the amount of the bonus itself is purely arbitrary - imagine if it had been 20, 5 and 1 in the Giro.
 
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dimspace said:
ok firstly this is about tactics.. not wether lance doped in 2000, 2001 etc.. you really need to learn to drop that...
secondly, you dont upset me, to be honest i feel sorry for you
secondly regarding astana tactics, i did not say there tactics where genius during the giro, i actually said that i didnt think any team did a great job tactically.. as far as astana went, if levi had been more in form, i think they did have riders there to support him.. he just wasnt up to it..

but anyway.. i dont actually have to listen to you.. you may think that what you say is gospel and correct, personally i think you know not half as much as you would like to think.. and when all said and done, everything is just opinion..

i now going to mute you, because frankly i would happily say just what i think and i think that would probably be to the detrement of this forum..

some people can be part right some of the time, some people can be part right all of the time, and some people can be all right, part of the time..
you cant be right, all of the time.. (however much youd like to think you are)

I am so disheartened by your choice.......do you have mirrors in your home?
 
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Anonymous

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dimspace said:
i actually think there are very few who showed any tactival nouse in this giro.. menchov, virtually no team support, tactics where to sit on di lucas bum.. won the giro..
di luca, tactic to attack at every opportunity, at hope for the best with not too much support..
Liquigas.. well, nuff said really..
Astana, tactic was right, levis form was an issue
the rest.. well.. not much to say...

only ones who really came out of the giro with any credit as a team where columbia.. they won the TTT they wanted to win, they won the sprint stages they wanted to win, and EbH did the rest (who was it tipped EbH to do very well this giro... i wonder.. :D)

You didn't think the team did a great job tactically? Oh really.
 
May 26, 2009
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Well, to be fair, to say tactics were 'right' doesn't quite equate to saying tactics were 'genius'. Difference worth noting before slamming somebody, perhaps?
 
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yourwelcome said:
Well, to be fair, to say tactics were 'right' doesn't quite equate to saying tactics were 'genius'. Difference worth noting before slamming somebody, perhaps?

Uh, when he wrote this "i actually said that i didnt think any team did a great job tactically"

I responded with my post. Now that you have no point, what will you do?

My welcome?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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tic tac toe -
The Astana Cycling Team won the Team’s classification in the Tour of Italy.
Team Astana on General Classification:
6 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Astana 5.28
12 Lance Armstrong (USA) 15.59
15 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) 16.15
18 Jani Brajkovic (Slo) 28.07
31 Daniel Navarro (Spa) 1.02.21
35 Andrey Zeits (Kaz) 1.14.56
49 José Luis Rubiera (Spa) 1.38.56
88 Steve Morabito (Swi) 2.48.54
The BIG what if - Chris Horner was healthy?
 
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BroDeal said:
He would have placed tenth.

And they maybe MAYBE would have won a stage. Considering the hype pre-Giro, one word comes to mind. FAILURE.