Bruyneel: Tactical Genius?

[Anonymous]

There have been two key tactics for winning the Tour over the last 15 years

1. Increase power to weight ratio as much as medically possible.
2. Don't get caught doing #1

In both of these tactics The Hog has been one of the best. The Tour is won by horsepower, not tactics.

One day classics's are where tactic's mean something.....how is Johann's record there? No so good

there is the old adage for auto racing.. paraphrased.. "there's no substitute for horsepower.", but i've seen a lot of muscle cars with busted drivetrains waiting for a tow job.
i'm certain that if you got together the 10 most recent grand tour winners they'd say something different.

 

[Anonymous]

That's just bull****. Rabobank worked very hard to make sure that Menchov wasn't isolated until the last climb. That is a very touch job for a team with the maglia rosa, but it is crucial for the win. It's not surprising that they chose to let Ardila and Ten Dam relax on the last climb, since only the best of the best can counter an attack by Di Luca, Sastre and Basso, anyway.



LPR worked very hard to get Di Luca all those bonus seconds (including some futile attempts). They also defended his jersey well, when he had it. On his own, he wouldn't have come second.



I think you are really underestimating some of the teams. There are only so many superstars in cycling. It's not realistic to have more than 2 or 3 teams that are superstrong (currently Astana and CSC). Even those teams seem to be able to field a superteam only for the Tour. Just because the other teams didn't ride like a superteam doesn't mean that they did badly. In fact, teams like Rabobank and LPR deserve even more credit for getting great results with a non-superteam.

I really think that you have completely unrealistic standards.

thank you very much.

 

[elapid]

There have been two key tactics for winning the Tour over the last 15 years

1. Increase power to weight ratio as much as medically possible.
2. Don't get caught doing #1

In both of these tactics The Hog has been one of the best. The Tour is won by horsepower, not tactics.

One day classics's are where tactic's mean something.....how is Johann's record there? No so good

I assume you didn't watch last year's TdF. The only reason Sastre won was because of team tactics on the stage to Alpe d'Huez. He did nothing before or after and was more or less protected in the peloton drafting away and conserving his energy. His win was definitely team tactics.

As for Lance Armstrong and Contador, I have to agree with Mr. Tibbs. They were the strongest riders and Bruyneel paid for the super domestiques who all did their job admirably in the mountains. Doping was probably involved. But, bottom line, it is a team sport and very few individual racers can cover the breaks, power up mountains, and power through time trials over the period of a grand tour without support and protection to recover from their team. If anything, it is the classics that are a power man's game. While tactics are involved, the strongest man often wins.

 

[Anonymous]

I think you are really underestimating some of the teams. There are only so many superstars in cycling. It's not realistic to have more than 2 or 3 teams that are superstrong (currently Astana and CSC). Even those teams seem to be able to field a superteam only for the Tour. Just because the other teams didn't ride like a superteam doesn't mean that they did badly. In fact, teams like Rabobank and LPR deserve even more credit for getting great results with a non-superteam.

I really think that you have completely unrealistic standards.

the statement at the start of the thread reads GENIUS

was there any point in the giro when i thought, that team got there tactics bang on.. maybe once or twice.. did any team consistently show genius tactics.. i dont think so..

and yes.. i have very high standards.. these guys are the best of the best.. there are many many riders.. but very few director sportifs.. i expect genius..

 

[avantage]

Bonus seconds stupid?
Were you watching a different race??

 

[euphrades]

I am starting to think that Big Boat is an ex Postee----need to check the IP address and see if its a Dearborn, MI IP address.

You seem to understand the inner workings a bit too much for me to believe you aren't a former pro or formerly connected to a pro team.

 

[BroDeal]

Riis owns Bruyneel. Riis was able to start with a small budget and over a span of years build the best team in the world by winning a variety of races with a variety of riders. Despite all of Postal/Disco's firepower, they were never able to win a classic.

 

[BroDeal]

I am starting to think that Big Boat is an ex Postee----need to check the IP address and see if its a Dearborn, MI IP address.

You seem to understand the inner workings a bit too much for me to believe you aren't a former pro or formerly connected to a pro team.

I heard he was on the pro google team.

 

[Cobblestones]

I heard he was on the pro google team.

No, it was the pro GOGGLE team

 

[Anonymous]

That's just bull****. Rabobank worked very hard to make sure that Menchov wasn't isolated until the last climb. That is a very tough job for a team with the maglia rosa, but it is crucial for the win. It's not surprising that they chose to let Ardila and Ten Dam relax on the last climb, since only the best of the best can counter an attack by Di Luca, Sastre and Basso, anyway.



LPR worked very hard to get Di Luca all those bonus seconds (including some futile attempts). They also defended his jersey well, when he had it. On his own, he wouldn't have come second.



I think you are really underestimating some of the teams. There are only so many superstars in cycling. It's not realistic to have more than 2 or 3 teams that are superstrong (currently Astana and CSC). Even those teams seem to be able to field a superteam only for the Tour. Just because the other teams didn't ride like a superteam doesn't mean that they did badly. In fact, teams like Rabobank and LPR deserve even more credit for getting great results with a non-superteam.

I really think that you have completely unrealistic standards.

Dim, like most people whose cycling knowledge extends back maybe 10 years thinks that "tactics" is when the ENTIRE team pulls till half way up the last climb when the leader then rides off into the sunset. The problem is that those aren't tactics. As has been pointed out, that is blood doping par excellence.

The Hog isn't a "tactician" he is merely a DS willing to buy the best medical program ever devised.

 

[BigBoat]

this is what were in for if astana does well. if they do well it will be because they still have the secret formula nobody else has.
riders come and go to other teams and they still don't tell.
it's probably because they're blindfolded, strapped down and injected. right?

more conspiracy theory.

The riders themselves might not know the details of what their on... Now everybody knows about blood doping, HGH, or IGF-1. There are certainly many things out there... Ferrari is a better doping doctor and he has a BIG reputation to say the least. In fact Erwann Menthéour compares Willy Voet and Dr. Ferrari like the difference between a Fiat Punto and a Ferrari!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Ferrari


Certain guys that have been jacked on a full Disco, Postal, Astana program are not likely to release details (if they even know fully.) But they eventually will. It might be 10 years down the road, or 25 years but eventually some reputable ex-teamate of Lance will spill the beans on Postal/ Disco/ Astana and Ferrari. Not to mention when they leave a team like that they sure as hell will not ever see that type of treatment again.

In fact Beltran certainly never did. Vaughters declined... Hamilton had Chechini (Dr. Ferrari's competition!!)

Beltran was a big talent on postal! But when he left Posta/ Disco he was not even a top 20 overall rider on mountain stages and then he tested positive for epo. But microdosing epo to blood dope with his own blood and keep rectics normal!

Lance worked with Ferrari for years (and still does). There's are no doubt certain methods Lance did not even tell his teamates.

 

[ElChingon]

Back to Bruyneel.

First of his sour grapes attitute as of late makes me rather happy to know he hates to lose and that he's losing finally.

Now as for being a Great DS. Well it sure does come down to winning and winning often and he has that. Its true he's paid for talent and that alone has drawn talented riders to his team, I mean who here doesn't want to get paid well for their work? Omerta and side rumor/postulates aside, we all know the great teams of our time in sport are the teams with the bigger financial backers, sure a few cheap teams squeak in from time to time but never for a repeat as good riders/sportsmen eventually want to get paid for their super talent and move on to the bigger money. If anything I feel riders will seek out the Bruyneel teams if they can just to get paid well and get paid period if not the extra's they may get on his teams versus the other teams where they don't get many extra incentives. At the same time we all know there are the few with morals or nationalistic pride that will prevent them from ever signing with a Bruyneel team as well.

No classics, yea that will be a stickler to his record as it is a stickler. But we know that they have always put it all down for le tour an le tour only, everything else was nothing for them, until they were banned from le tour last year. Winning the Giro and Vuelta was a revenge tactic for them if not a feel good win for their team, but missing out on le tour was like a major sucker punch to their gut and there's no denying that.

So as far as being a great DS, I'm afraid I'd have to give it to him whether I like it or not (mainly don't), but I can't deny the wins or at least the Tour wins and the couple Giro and one Vuelta win. Deny anyone of any greatness due to being a scrupulous DS with one thing on his mind and sticking to signing the best riders isn't all a bad thing really, would any of you not sign the best riders if you could, and they wanted to ride on your team? (if you were a DS)

We all know Bruyneel basically got his job the year before the 1999 Tour at the Vuelta where Lance came in 4th, for some reason Bruyneel was there and was impressed and talked to Lance and for some unknown reason that meeting sealed the deal for them. The next thing we know Bruyneel is the DS at US Postal totally out of nowhere (to me).

 

[Escarabajo]

Well the Postal/ Disco team for Lance was by far the strongest in the mountains and they were really good in the TTT (in their later years.) Postal/ Disco were able to give the entire team their own frozen packed red cells (400-600cc) or big 800cc whole blood refills. Not all the teams could do this for their riders and some didnt have a clue... That was crucial and in fact Ullrich in my opinion would have had a far greater chance of attacking in 2003 if Lances team wasnt so incredibly powerful. Lance still had plenty of guys in the lead group with him when Jan could have made his "move" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l39ahBFGnuk

There is this Postal/ Disco/ Astana now formulative "medical program" that none of the other teams could figure out. And it think their secret(s) are still there if they win the Tour again. I never saw Lance win the Dauphine after 2003, and he was never really stronger than he has been this early on in the year. "Lancer" has certainly been able to get his "crit" (hematocrit) above 50% for the stages thus far. Because all his major competition sure the hell has! And if all had low crits Lance certainly would not do all that well with his natural V02 max of 78-80.

Might not be top 50 if everybody was clean...

You have the Tour years messed up. That was 2004 Tour and not 2003. In 2003 Jan lost the tour because he could not figure out Lance Armstrong's face. He missed a couple of opportunities in the mountains. And his team was not as strong as in the other tours.
Sorry Jan you missed your chance.

 

[Returnofthewolf]

I heard he was on the pro google team.

!!!HAHAAA (spit beer on keyboard)

 

[Escarabajo]

True fans watch the Giro because we love it not because Lance is in it. Sorry pal, but a guy who does not watch cycling, like my wife, is not going to watch because Lance is in there. The average person only watches and read the headlines. Sorry to disappoint you.

I am not going to watch baseball because of Barry Bonds, I prefer to watch the summaries. That's it. If they don't show it in the sports news then I don't look for it.

Listen Belokki, You used to hate Armstrong in the Tours, what happened??

 

[Escarabajo]

Maybe, BUT Menchow didn't bring the publicity with him that Lance did! Let's be honest...manny only watched the Giro because of Lance! The real money comes from broadcasting rights! And Lance had more publicity than Pelizotti, Menchow and Di Luca combined! He's the Tiger Woods or Jordan of the cycling world

True fans watch the Giro because we love cycling not because Lance is in it. Sorry pal, but a guy who does not watch cycling, like my wife, is not going to watch because Lance is in there. The average person only watches and read the headlines. Sorry to disappoint you.

I am not going to watch baseball because of Barry Bonds, I prefer to watch the summaries. That's it. If they don't show it in the sports news then I don't look for it.

Listen Belokki, You used to hate Armstrong in the Tours, what happened??

 

[Returnofthewolf]

Hate to break it to you bud, but there were more eyes on the race cause Lordstrong was there.

 

[Escarabajo]

this is what were in for if astana does well. if they do well it will be because they still have the secret formula nobody else has.
riders come and go to other teams and they still don't tell.
it's probably because they're blindfolded, strapped down and injected. right?

more conspiracy theory.

People leave and don't tell?????? So what is the Omerta for???

We already been this road many times and we don't want to start the fight and then the thread gets degenerated again into A Lance Armstrong Love/Hate thread. Let's not do that please.

Thanks.

 

[stephens]

I think he meant more along the lines of if there was some secret method that Bruyneel has to create winners who don't fail drug tests, then how come the riders who have left don't tell their new teams and teammates how to do the same thing, therefore quickly leading to all the teams once again being on more equal footing in that regard.

 

[Escarabajo]

Hate to break it to you bud, but there were more eyes on the race cause Lordstrong was there.

On the road? Then I agree. On TV. I still don't picture the average person watching a mountain stage or even a flat stage because Lance is in there. It is just my opinion.

The ratings from what I have seen only go up with epic battles in the tour. But without the rivalry, Lance Armstrong will not pull it. Maybe for a few minutes trying to spot Lance in the Peloton and then go do something else. Again it is my opinion.

Sorry for changing the topic on this thread. I won't interfere anymore.
Thanks.

 

[Anonymous]

Dim, like most people whose cycling knowledge extends back maybe 10 years thinks that "tactics" is when the ENTIRE team pulls till half way up the last climb when the leader then rides off into the sunset. The problem is that those aren't tactics. As has been pointed out, that is blood doping par excellence.

The Hog isn't a "tactician" he is merely a DS willing to buy the best medical program ever devised.

id asked that you give me a little more credit..

i dont actually have to justify myself, as i have said before, peoples experience or how far they go back means little towards them being able to put forward an informed OPINION, and opinions is all they are.. as far as i know, nobody here does actually know EVERYTHING, or speak the GOSPEL.. just some people appear to think they do..

for the record, the first tour de france i remember was 1982
I rode myself from 1986 to the mid nineties (albeit badly)
I visited my first tour in 1995
unfortunately i can do little about my age and was unable to witness the likes of Anqeutil, or Merckx firsthand.. i wasnt born until 1970..

but as i say, it is of little relevance wether i rode the tour in 1950, or saw my first tour in 2008.. my opinion is just as valid regardless.. or are you one of those who beleives that unless you can recite the winners of every major race since 1953 you are not a true fan..

im gonna stop now before this develops into a personal attack.. i dont think you are as stupid as you make out.. i think you are purely setting bait in the hope that some may bite..

 

[Anonymous]

Dim, like most people whose cycling knowledge extends back maybe 10 years thinks that "tactics" is when the ENTIRE team pulls till half way up the last climb when the leader then rides off into the sunset. The problem is that those aren't tactics. As has been pointed out, that is blood doping par excellence.

The Hog isn't a "tactician" he is merely a DS willing to buy the best medical program ever devised.

and in response to this, i would simply ask, what moments of GENIUS tactics where there during THIS giro, from any team, not just Astana... which is what my post was asking.. The subject of the thread is "is JB a tactical genius", so i merely questioned if anyone in this giro came out of it smelling of the tactical roses (and opinion to which i am entitled and a point of view i beleive i am free to put across)

i actually dont think JB is a tactical genius.. i think hes very good, I would be interested to see how he got on without radio.. and i think the relationships and tactics between JB and BR are interesting, when it comes to who has the edge at the moment you gotta say that JB is leading..

BUt anyway, lets have some evidence to back up your endless ramblings, or do you prefer to ramble.. at the moment it seems to be snipes, and innuendo, with very little substance...

In other words...

Put up.. or Shut up...

 

[Mellow Velo]

No doubt, if Astana are saved from the brink, we'll have a "Johan Bruyneel Financial Genius" thread.
Surely, sticking 9 engines on the front of the peloton, to pull the legs off the rest, doesn't make him Napoleon?

 

[RhodriM]

I know he also won the tour with Contador, but let us be honest about that one: the whole result was messed up by Rasmussen (who worked with Contador to distance Evans); effectively Contador inherited the win and in my view the moral victor was really Evans.

Urgh, from what I remember all Evans did all tour was suck wheels, at least Contador's attacks were fun to watch - and Rasmussen was of course decidedly dodgy. Nah, I like to think the right man won that one.

 

[Anonymous]

and in response to this, i would simply ask, what moments of GENIUS tactics where there during THIS giro, from any team, not just Astana... which is what my post was asking.. The subject of the thread is "is JB a tactical genius", so i merely questioned if anyone in this giro came out of it smelling of the tactical roses (and opinion to which i am entitled and a point of view i beleive i am free to put across)

i actually dont think JB is a tactical genius.. i think hes very good, I would be interested to see how he got on without radio.. and i think the relationships and tactics between JB and BR are interesting, when it comes to who has the edge at the moment you gotta say that JB is leading..

BUt anyway, lets have some evidence to back up your endless ramblings, or do you prefer to ramble.. at the moment it seems to be snipes, and innuendo, with very little substance...

In other words...

Put up.. or Shut up...

Again with the reading comprehension thing. My post was not in regards to any particular teams tactical "genius" during the Giro. It was about your demonstrated lack of perspective regarding tactics in general. I mean, you stated that Astana's tactics were right, it was just Levi's fitness? Really? You think JB did a good job tactics wise in the Giro? You are a veiled fanboy who hides behind things like "no positive tests after 1999" and the like. If only you would put the rest of the pieces together on things, you would be able to see clearly what is staring you in the face. As for me delineating all of it, there are books and articles written on the subject. I have read them. I am not a library, nor am I your research assistant. I am sorry your feelings get hurt when you write things that are clearly ignorant of the information provided in those books and articles and I suggest that you clearly don't know what you are talking about. I am not going to do the heavy lifting for you. The answers are out there and I didn't compile them myself, I just read them.

In other words, its shut up or shut up time.

snipes, and inuendo are kind of my thing.....thanks for noticing.