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I predicted it. What Pog did at Worlds was give a huge psychological blow to his rivals, a crushing display that will remain in their heads for a very long time to come. I shudder to think what next season will be like. If he remains at this level or, God forbid, raises it, he could win every classics, every stage race, every GT he enters. Oh wait, he pretty much already did that this year. It's the end of cycling financed by that state just everybody loves, UAE.
Yeah, I thought he moved back to the Romagna, but it sounded more adventurous.
You havent read other parts of this forum? Or any other part of socialmedia and internet? It's a complete clown show 🤷♂️nothing to do with me. And yes it certainly annoys me and even makes me angry. I have been following cycling since my teens in 90s and this is so much worse than anything I have witnessed. Like someone else said, even the crazy EPO-years was a lot better, cause the field was so much more level, when almost everyone was anyway on the same juice.
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Don't worry I am neither emotional nor touchy about it, it was merely an inquiry because I did't knew exactly what this passage was supposed to proof, and therefore guessed you believe it never happened. So I couldn't stop myself from giving a few reasons as to why I think this doesn't make much sense on relatively simple grounds. But simply for intellectual reasons of disagreement, rather than an emotional one. I am interested in your reasoning though, so would be happy to hear what you have to say about it. If it goes to far off topic feel free to PM me.
Well I didn't say without any knowledge, but without full knowledge as to why or how it works, but stable knowledge about what effects it can have. This could be discovered as a side product of an existing substance and someone has a hunch based on say a paper and then goes on trying it out on somebody. I mean normal ethics guidelines as to how to proceed with experiments on humans are suspended when it comes to doping anyways.
But be that as it may: the motor doping would only explain some of the changes in performance we have seen imo, because this new speed thing did not start this season, or last season, but roundabout 2020. So the jump in performance this year might be explained with it. Also the question still remains; if they are using motors (not just Pogacar as the only rider doing so), then how come that Pogacar is so absurdely dominant still? If say Vigegaard and Pogacar both have +50 watts, it even benefits Vingegaard more because he is lighter, or lighter climbers in general for that matter. Yet what we see is Pogacar riding everybody of his *** wheel. Is he the only one using a motor then? Does he use a better motor? Does it even matter when a lot of them are using it, and would it not be more astonishing how dominant he is because his relative win in watts/kg from a motor would be lower than Skeletors or Remcos? That's just a few questions that come immediatly to mind.
So I personally choose to remain riddled by what's going on. Hell, maybe it's even the fume breathing thing plus more nutrition.
By the same logic, we could say: “Heck it may be just the porridge he is eating now.” Indeed, recall the “official” explanation according to which Tuddy, the wonder boy has not just started training right this year (previously having been doing exclusively easy rides), but also just began eating carbs normally while previously having been starving himself on just gels and such. Really maybe it’s just that. How can we prove it is not? But more seriously, if what we are witnessing is just the results of electromagnetic propulsion (in addition to Toddy’s pedal pushing), then how exactly is it organized? Why don’t other teams use it? Or maybe they do to an extent? It is difficult to know all the details unless we can question the circus organizers, and they are willing to truthfully fill us in. Not counting on the latter – and I, frankly, do not hold my breath, – we are going to have to speculate a bit, preferably in an educated fashion.
You are correct that the current wave of “amazing” speeds began around 2020. The first such clearly “nuclear” performance is Taddy’s own TDF 2020 last TT that had Tom D. and Wout watch in disbelief and the former make a comment about Teddy’s “coal miner” non-aero position which surprisingly did not prevent him from beating pure specialists on the flat part. For a more detailed account of that history of suspected motor usage, look up my very first message on this forum. This year the “ante” has been considerably “upped” which is very easy to do with EM propulsion, but not so much with body-directed bio-chemical doping.
But what about others? Why don’t they just go and install the biggest motors in their bikes and merrily charge uphill at 60 km/h? We have already briefly discussed the question of centralization and monopolization and how it affects the way things are done. Apparently, the circus we are reluctantly watching and some folks greatly enjoying is also pretty centralized and, as such, does not reduce to simply a competition between mutually independent teams. There must be an overall script of sorts (think WWE). And, within that script, some riders are allowed to use those bikes with a little “secret” inside, and some (most likely, the vast majority thereof) are not. It is also possible that the “secret” size differs from bike to bike, depending on who seats on it. How exactly this allocation is done, is very hard to tell without kind cooperation on the circus organizers’ part which, again, I do not have high hopes for. The number of people knowing the details of the proceeding is likely kept at a minimum which, in particular, explains the recently observed scene between Tuddy’s mechanic and a race commissaire right after WCRR, with the latter wanting to take the champ’s bike for an inspection and the former refusing to release it.
P.S. Just a couple of lines about that pesky moon expedition issue, hoping the moderators do not mind too much. Specifically, only about the Apollo rocket take-off and the Soviet’s silence. Judging, for example by this amateur video of said take-off shown here
, the Apollo 11 rocket takes about 105 seconds (from 3:49 to 5:34) to break the clouds at the height of about 8km while according to the official flight plan it should have been at the height of about 24.5km at this time. This means the rocket is gaining speed roughly 3 times slower than it is supposed to in order to get to LEO. This, in turn, implies, that Saturn 5 Apollo 11 rocket never made it to LEO having ended its journey in Atlantic ocean a few dozen miles off Florida shore. Now what about the Soviets? The answer to that question has been staring everyone in the face for the last three decades and a bit. It is called capitalist Russia and several more equally comic newly formed “independent” states where USSR used to reside. The counterrevolutionary socially regressive process that led to the formation of said states in early 90’s did not happen suddenly. It did not start with the idiot Gorbachev and the so called “perestroika”— that was just its culmination. In a nutshell, the Soviet leaders of Apollo missions’ times weren’t that “Soviet” anymore and were already willing to make deals with the alleged “class enemy”. There is rather good evidence that their silence on the moon hoax issue was a part of one such deal.
Humm ... tell us more. I'd have to check it out, but is that not the same as refusing to pee in a cup after a race?
I don't know whether this was posted earlier, but Jorgenson knows something fishy is going on. His fight with Evenepoel in Paris-Nice was one of the highlights this year for me. A credible duel between two talented riders.
View: https://x.com/Elias_TVL/status/1842598102248886342
View: https://x.com/Elias_TVL/status/1842598102248886342
Bingo... he is just better... like a lot of cyclists and reowned names in cycling are saying.
Imagine our hero tests positive.
Pogacar: I don't understand this. I have no secrets: just porridge and Z2 rides. Everybody, who trains for 6 hours at modest 5.4 w/kg, can become as good as me. Plus the team always takes care of my health and every week doctors with needles examine me. Mauro says they give me vitamins. Ok, I actually have one secret: I ate 5 kg of Mortadella one evening, it must have been contaminated.
Gianetti: I'm shocked. Tadej is the black sheep of the peleton. He disappointed the team and ruined the clean image of cycling. I couldn't sleep the whole night. Why is it happening in my team again? I don't know if I will ever trust cyclists again, it's a devastating blow. Maybe it's time for retirement in Dubai.
Pogacar: I don't understand this. I have no secrets: just porridge and Z2 rides. Everybody, who trains for 6 hours at modest 5.4 w/kg, can become as good as me. Plus the team always takes care of my health and every week doctors with needles examine me. Mauro says they give me vitamins. Ok, I actually have one secret: I ate 5 kg of Mortadella one evening, it must have been contaminated.
Gianetti: I'm shocked. Tadej is the black sheep of the peleton. He disappointed the team and ruined the clean image of cycling. I couldn't sleep the whole night. Why is it happening in my team again? I don't know if I will ever trust cyclists again, it's a devastating blow. Maybe it's time for retirement in Dubai.
Imagine Niermann though? Vinge will have no chance to escape that guy. He will throw him under the bus.
He is just a luck merchant though. Yesterday perfect weather for him and the others DNF.
Others just need more luck.
This is something ugly to do. His leader abused on using TUE's to get ready for the Tour this year and he is trying to mock Vingegaard's biggest rival?
And then there is the fact that Pogacar has been on killer form since Strade Bianche. He's never had a moment of a real drop in level, all through the spring campaign into summer (including Giro-Tour) and fall (Worlds and most likely Lombardia). It literally defies reason, a miracle, but we all know there are no miracles in cycling. Take his "rivals" this year. Vingegaard is out of competition, Evenepoel can't carry his form from July-August. It's just insane. He remains in stellar form, while the others fade. How does he do it, one might well ask? It truly is miraculous. I can see the aureolae radiating from the heads of Gianetti-Maxtin and hear the sweet sounds of angelic music in the perfumed mist.
It’s more likely that sooner or later something will break on him, there is no way his body can coupe in the long run with whatever UAE is giving to him. (Unless its a motor but it can break to).
I don't want to take away a single word of your post. It is not normal to be so good all season but in my opinion is Pogacar is not close to peak shape in SB or even the Giro, he is just so much better that he can win easily at 80/85% of his level. This discrepancy can't be explained only by doping (that's my point all the time) unless he is using a motor. We already had notorious dopers with a better doping program, better responders to doping and the gap (from LA/Indurain/Contador/Froome to their rivals) was way leaner. Pogacar has something else, high VO2 max, ability to not accumulate lactic acid, I don't know. Or he is using a motor.
Listen. He is not doping. It's his wheel bearings that is greased top notch.
There have been some posts that unlike other dopers he is at least likable. I believe we saw how likable he is at the end of Flanders 22. In ant case, this is getting ridiculous...
I'd have no problem with this analysis, except I really can't understand how he is so above the rest. If you take the past as an example, the differences between the top tier riders never reached such disproportions. And he is doing it in practically every kind of race imaginable. Even Merckx could meet his match in the mountains against Ocana, who was simply a superior climber, or Hinault who could be beaten even when in fine form. Not Pogacar, who has reached a superiority that goes against everything we know about modern cycling. For the past three decades specialization took over. It was thus thought impossible to win classics, GTs and Worlds by one rider, let alone in the same season. He breaks Pantani's record by 3'40", then goes on a 100 km rampage to win solo at Worlds. Nothing makes sense anymore. Contador was doing "Pantani-like" things with a TT ability that verged on a real specialist until Clengate, but he was nowhere in the classics or Worlds. Froome was a dominant force in the GTs and spring stage races, but similarly was a non-entity in the one-day races. You have to go back to the 80s to have all-rounders, when the doping was much less effective and sophisticated, when you had a select group of riders (Hinault, Fignon, Lemond, Roche, Delgado, Kelly), some of which were less versitile, who were within eachother's reach. Because, although the talent was great, no margin of difference was as large as what we saw from Tadej this year against his rivals. In an era in which performance science has reach such extremely high levels, you wouldn't expect one rider to be so dominant, unless he is ahead in the arms race (chemical or mechanical). It seems improbable, in the era of marginal gains, that there should be such a big difference in talent between the top five-six riders as we are presently witnessing. In my opinion, after the spring, then Giro-Tour-Worlds he should be tired, but that is clearly not the case and it's not normal. He'd have to be truely that much more talented to the other big talents of this era, than has ever been reached between the best riders in the past.
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On the other hand, there have been people like Newton, Euler, Gauss, to name a few mathematicians, who were so much more prolific than any of their contemporary that it boggles the mind. So, it could just be work ethic and monstrous genetics. Otherwise, he would tell, at least Urska, what to do to win a race.
I am trying to indicate that it is possible for a human to be so much better than everybody else in any endeavor.
This. I came to this thread just pointing there is something about Pogacar's physiological ability (unless he is using a motor) truly remarkable and other guys just scream with rage "Doper, biggest cheater ever, he makes LA a good boy, etc". This adds nothing to the thread, just generates conflicts. The Clinic used to have guys with very interesting content (Hitch for example). Now, there is some competition to see who screams louder "Doper, Fraud, etc".
Of course Pogacar is doping, I said many times there is no clean athlete in High performance sports, specially individual sports where physical capacity is essential. But what explains this difference between Pogacar and the rest? This should be the conversation and if you think a little bit, this difference in performance can't be explained only by a better program because histoy already showed us LA (for example) wasn't so MUCH better than his rivals like Pogacar is.
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