Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Peyroteo94]

This is just flat-out wrong on so many levels that I wouldn't even know where to begin ...

No, it isn't. Cyclists from big nations (nations that have tradition in cycling) are "professional" way earlier.

 

[Salvarani]

Mou told everyone the changes with training and the preparation. It has worked out exactly like he said.

Not strange for a rider who has taken steps each season for the past decade.

 

[Netserk]

How soon did he attack this time?

First time up San Luca (out of 5).

 

[Peyroteo94]

Because Pogacar is their golden calf? I still don't understand which point you're so incessantly trying to prove here. Again, when the claim is that Pogi wasn't a special talent before joining UAE, how does saying that he's currently the best guy in the world disproof anything in this regard?

Also, if we must do this stupid exercise, then here are their results before turning 20 according to Pro Cycling Stats. If you can dig up more results, be my guest but until then let's put to bed this idea that Pogi has always been a junior talent far superior to the likes of Hirschi and Ayuso:

Name	Racedays (before 20th birthday)	Wins	Podiums
Marc Hirschi	127	14	32
Juan Ayuso	110	11	22
Tadej Pogacar	143	8	25
Isaac Del Toro	58	2	7

This even includes Pogi's results as a junior after signing with UAE. It also puts Ayuso at a bit of a disadvantage as this includes a lot of senior races, a lot of them even in the World Tour as he - as opposed to Pogi - was already at World Tour-level as a teenager.

Again, there is no case for making the claim that Pogi was some special sort of talent as a junior. We have seen literally dozens and dozens of junior talents at the same level as Pogi or significantly better. Just think about Remco for a second, for example.

Fábio Paim was a bigger talent than Cristiano Ronaldo as a junior. Ronaldo, you know who he is, Paim, you don't have a clue. For you, the best junior=best rider in the world in the future. I will not continue this conversation, it's pointless

 

[Froome]

My another point is that we can't be sure UAE has an advantage over JV as the latter had very bad luck regarding both Vingo and Van Aert this year while the rest of their guys are not in Pogacar's league of course (but Jorgenson's progress and Vingo's miraclous recovery signal that their "technology" is doing well!).

Trust me, if Visma don't improve his doping programm to the same level of the UAE programm, Vingegaard will not going to win the Tour in 2025, nevertheless i am confident they will do it, in this dirt game, because at the end of the day Visma is rabobank and those guys Plugge, Niermann hate to lose, and will do everything they can without limits.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I always said and is not the first time, i will say it again, as long as the teams have a programm of similar quality, and as longs things stays in the 6.2/6.3 w/kg in 35/40 min, like not so outrageous perfomances, like in the 90s, i have not a big problem with that.

Things changed this year, and if Vingegaard does 7 w/kg during 40 min on la plagne i will say the same thing about the state of cycling and how he is full of doping(i will not be so mad, only because one reason. I like more his personality), but the case of Pogacar you know is way more outrageous, because he is doing what he is doing in every fuc*** race. You know very well that Pogacar won races in 2022 and 2023, but it wasn't this supremacy, and i wasn't that mad when he won those races, for the reasons i explained.

Again, I'm not arguing that Pogi is overkilling it, as you said all kind of races. Sure, he's versatile but he could've abstained from another long-ranger today. This was unnecessary. At the same time you are forgetting that Vingo did an even bigger pull (than 7 w/kg) on PDB actually and I won't even mention how crazy were Jorgenson's watts in the first part. I also don't recall you criticizing Vingo for outrageous "TT of the century" last year. UAE and JV are both playing this game, the latter are on the backfoot this year but mostly due to crashes of their top stars, methinks.

 

[Salvarani]

Fábio Paim was a bigger talent than Cristiano Ronaldo as a junior. Ronaldo, you know who he is, Paim, you don't have a clue. For you, the best junior=best rider in the world in the future. I will not continue this conversation, it's pointless

More juniors fail than succeeds as a pro.

Throughout most sports.

 

[E_F_]

First time up San Luca (out of 5).

Somehow worse than I thought.

 

[Salvarani]

First time up San Luca (out of 5).

He countered on Remco attack who opened up the finale.

 

[Netserk]

Again, I'm not arguing that Pogi is overkilling it, as you said all kind of races. Sure, he's versatile but he could've abstained from another long-ranger today. This was unnecessary. At the same time you are forgetting that Vingo did an even bigger pull (than 7 w/kg) on PDB actually and I won't even mention how crazy were Jorgenson's watts in the first part. I also don't recall you criticizing Vingo for outrageous "TT of the century" last year. UAE and JV are both playing this game, the latter are on the backfoot this year but mostly due to crashes of their top stars, methinks.

Combloux was not comparable to Plateau de Beille.

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

No, it isn't. Cyclists from big nations (nations that have tradition in cycling) are "professional" way earlier.

It is ridiculously wrong to claim that Slovenia has zero cycling history, however. Slovenia also absolutely has traditions in cycling. Do yourself - and me - a great favor and read this before you make further uneducated comments on this matter.

It's also wrong to claim that the Slovenians don't know what they're doing as far as talent development goes. And that's across the board, they are extremely good at developing talents in virtually every sport. Slovenia is probably one of the most active countries in the world to begin with - hiking, running, skiing, and cycling are wildly popular, for example - and they have well-educated coaches in their primary schools where sports are an important part of their schedules.

Just because he wasn't shoved into some Alberto Contador-run program at 15 it doesn't mean that he wasn't receiving well-qualified training schedules and nutrition plans at a young age. Slovenia isn't some third-world country and especially not as far as sporting culture goes.

 

[snipeheem]

Yes, he is more talented than the other UAE riders.

For sure he is more talented that boy from your avi

 

[Salvarani]

Combloux was not comparable to Plateau de Beille.

Agreed

Combloux was way more insane and the biggest outlier of performance against the rest of the field one could find

 

[Froome]

Again, I'm not arguing that Pogi is overkilling it, as you said all kind of races. Sure, he's versatile but he could've abstained from another long-ranger today. At the same time you are forgetting that Vingo did an even bigger pull (than 7 w/kg) on PDB actually and I won't even mention how crazy were Jorgenson's watts in the first part. I also don't recall you criticizing Vingo for outrageous "TT of the century" last year. UAE and JV are both playing this game, the latter are on the backfoot this year but mostly due to crashes of their top stars.

I already said to you, i wasn't here in July 2023 during the Tour. I have this account 2020 or 2021, but i wasn't here at the time.

This is not the thread of Vingegaard, are you expect me to say something about him here? You can question me there about that perfomance in the ITT, and i will going to say he was full of doping again, but i repeat, i think uae and visma had a similar programm in 2023. The numbers produced in that ITT were similar to other 10/15 min effort in that year.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Combloux was not comparable to Plateau de Beille.

Vingo's PDB performance was incredible as well. Even more so if you take into account:
1) his preparations
2) the fact that he dragged Pogacar on his wheel for many kilometers and
3) the fact that he didn't pace his effort optimally (he wanted to drop Pog too much doing like 7.2-7.3 w/kg).

 

[snipeheem]

The worst part of Pog and etc i am 1000% sure he will never be caught

 

[Salvarani]

Vingo's PDB performance was incredible as well. Even more so if you take into account:
1) his preparations
2) the fact that he dragged Pogacar on his wheel for many kilometers and
3) the fact that he didn't pace his effort optimally (he wanted to drop Pog too much doing like 7.2-7.3 w/kg).

Yes, Pog was on the wheel and could save energy as well

 

[Netserk]

Vingo's PDB performance was incredible as well. Even more so if you take into account:
1) his preparations
2) the fact that he dragged Pogacar on his wheel for many kilometers and
3) the fact that he didn't pace his effort optimally (he wanted to drop Pog too much doing like 7.2-7.3 w/kg).

That I fully agree with. But we were talking 2023, and I just don't think it was comparable to this. We are now in the hahaha-era.

So I don't think there's anything wrong with being more outraged by this year's performances than anything in 2023, including Combloux.

 

[Froome]

Fábio Paim was a bigger talent than Cristiano Ronaldo as a junior. Ronaldo, you know who he is, Paim, you don't have a clue. For you, the best junior=best rider in the world in the future. I will not continue this conversation, it's pointless

Fabio Paim was never a bigger talent than Ronaldo. It was just a stupid propaganda by the portuguese media at the time.

Fabio paim once said, he had more talent than Ronaldo, and the media inflationed those affirmations. Now he is doing porn movies, maybe he has more talent than ronaldo in that area.

Now, Remco had more talent than Pogacar in junior races.

 

[snipeheem]

Fabio Paim was never a bigger talent than Ronaldo. It was just a stupid propaganda by the portuguese media at the time.

Fabio paim once said, he had more talent than Ronaldo, and the media inflationed those affirmations. Now he is doing porn movies, maybe he has more talent than ronaldo in that area.

Now, Remco had more talent than Pogacar in junior races.

He was better than CR7, easily

 

[Salvarani]

More times than not, things don’t go as you think they will

Real talent always rise to the top

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

Fábio Paim was a bigger talent than Cristiano Ronaldo as a junior. Ronaldo, you know who he is, Paim, you don't have a clue. For you, the best junior=best rider in the world in the future. I will not continue this conversation, it's pointless

What in the world does that have to do with the idea that Pogi didn't win much before joining UAE? Again, this was the original claim that you took exception to.

You have still failed to define talent. Do it. Define talent. You were the one to make the claim that Pogi was the superiorly talented guy. If you want to make that claim, you need to start out by defining the key term. You seem unable or unwilling to do that. We seem to have already established that talent is not what you deliver as a junior.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Dang. I should have left that bloody moon alone. I knew some people could get touchy about that “we walked on the moon” topic. If you are one of those, please accept my apologies, disregard my moon mention, and stick to just Mars. If it is not just an emotional response, I could answer your specific moon related questions, but it would take us too far off topic.

Don't worry I am neither emotional nor touchy about it, it was merely an inquiry because I did't knew exactly what this passage was supposed to proof, and therefore guessed you believe it never happened. So I couldn't stop myself from giving a few reasons as to why I think this doesn't make much sense on relatively simple grounds. But simply for intellectual reasons of disagreement, rather than an emotional one. I am interested in your reasoning though, so would be happy to hear what you have to say about it. If it goes to far off topic feel free to PM me.

As to “them” being able to accidentally stumble upon some new powerful chemical or biological doping without any understanding of its workings, there definitely exists such an abstract possibility. However, there are a couple of observations, in my opinion, which make it not very likely in this particular instance. First, if something this powerful were just discovered, we would see records falling left and right in, for example, athletics, where any kind of EM help is impossible. If the same scale improvement as Teddy demonstrated just this year were in store, we would see people clearing 9.50s in 100m dash and 2.50m in high jump, figuratively speaking. Second, when any kind of help is applied to just the body and only then to pedals, the person in question still struggles and suffers, just does not blow as quickly as his competitors. Toddy, on the other hand, appears perfectly fresh and almost sweat-free after seemingly superhuman efforts.

Well I didn't say without any knowledge, but without full knowledge as to why or how it works, but stable knowledge about what effects it can have. This could be discovered as a side product of an existing substance and someone has a hunch based on say a paper and then goes on trying it out on somebody. I mean normal ethics guidelines as to how to proceed with experiments on humans are suspended when it comes to doping anyways.

But be that as it may: the motor doping would only explain some of the changes in performance we have seen imo, because this new speed thing did not start this season, or last season, but roundabout 2020. So the jump in performance this year might be explained with it. Also the question still remains; if they are using motors (not just Pogacar as the only rider doing so), then how come that Pogacar is so absurdely dominant still? If say Vigegaard and Pogacar both have +50 watts, it even benefits Vingegaard more because he is lighter, or lighter climbers in general for that matter. Yet what we see is Pogacar riding everybody of his *** wheel. Is he the only one using a motor then? Does he use a better motor? Does it even matter when a lot of them are using it, and would it not be more astonishing how dominant he is because his relative win in watts/kg from a motor would be lower than Skeletors or Remcos? That's just a few questions that come immediatly to mind.

So I personally choose to remain riddled by what's going on. Hell, maybe it's even the fume breathing thing plus more nutrition.

 

[snipeheem]

Fabio Paim was never a bigger talent than Ronaldo. It was just a stupid propaganda by the portuguese media at the time.

Fabio paim once said, he had more talent than Ronaldo, and the media inflationed those affirmations. Now he is doing porn movies, maybe he has more talent than ronaldo in that area.

Now, Remco had more talent than Pogacar in junior races.

Check a guy named Bojan Krkic and look what people used to say about him, look at his stats as junior

 

[vwpe]

Pogacar won TDF at age 20 but he is not talented. I genuinly hope some of you are just having a giggle cause theres not much else to say at one point.🤣

Go to a race, ask every pro they know more than the average Joe. But if were going by he is not the most talented in centuries not sure about the credibility of some here which you like to pose on others. Its common knowledge withing cycling what he is already and has for a long time, dont fool yourself.