Bryneel about contador

[Offtheback]

I have to ask what credit does he deserve? In particular this year. He accepted LA in to the team and then sat back when it came time to decide who was going to be leader.

Both AC & LA are extremely competitive riders but at some point a decision had to be made to define a clear leader and Bruyneel let his heart dictate instead of backing AC who was clearly the better rider.
To me that is what management is about and in my view he failed.

in my view he failed.


How many TDF victories does he need not to fail? Even last year Astana won AND got third place. Most punters would say he was on the money.

 

[cromagnon]

In a recent interview (I believe is Cycle Sport) Alberto said that his bike/Equipment was sabotaged during the Training Camps-Specially in Tenerife, along with Andrea's, so LA & Co. would always be riding on front of the group, for the media. after that, he realized the immediate necessity to get his own crew

Whoah...wtf... link please.

 

[RTMcFadden]

I see your point. However I don't intend to group all those with a negative opinion as haters, but I am trying to reflect back some of tone of the dismissive 'LA fanboys' that people who seeming don't have a negative enough opinion on the man get. ie, if you think that's alright to give, how do you feel when you get similar back. I've avoided getting as low as the 'chamois sniffing' type comments.



My point is largely to call out and draw attention to the way some extremely vocal posters were slamming dissenting opinions, by attacking others posters. Was there a better way? There usually is, but I see i necessary to take on the posters in general, rather than specifically, because that avoids me getting into personal attacks. In essence standing up to people resorting to very aggressive group bullying tactics isn't easy, I probably shouldn't have bothered, but extremes on the LA hatred side were ruining a potentially very good board for me. I suspect it is the same for others. I actually thought those incessant anti LA types must be getting the green light from higher management - because when I've seen this b4 on boards, that's what was happening. I expected to be banned despite attempting to stay within rules. It's a good sign - so far- I haven't.

Cheers for the civil questions. I do have good reason for saying the things I have, even if at times I could have done it better. Hopefully I've helped some others to be able to post disagreements of what in all honesty comes across as the party line around here. Like I said I probably shouldn't have started, but I did. It wouldn't seem right to just let my points get shouted over now.

Blog over

Well said. I concur with your rationale over this entire thread. It is inevitable that the flames of a competative fire wither with time and we're simply left with fond memories of a good fight and a worthy adversary.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

in my view he failed.


How many TDF victories does he need not to fail? Even last year Astana won AND got third place. Most punters would say he was on the money.

Contador won the Tour not JB.

As I said he failed as a manager in keeping control of his team.

 

[bianchigirl]

Bruyneel has never guided Contador to a GC victory - he's only in the car when Armstrong is around - otherwise it's the team's DSes who actually win the races (Yates and Galopin). This year's race found out Bruyneel for what he is - a one trick pony who was fortunate to have the best drilled team and the exclusive services of Dr Ferrari for 7 years. Beyond that, his input into Astana has been a joke.

 

[Publicus]

Reading the article it seems a few things are clear. JB is CLEARLY lashing out at AC because he doesn't feel that AC has given him enough respect. I don't think JB understands/appreciates how Lance's return to the team affected not only AC but more importantly JB. In short, the lack of respect he perceives is in part a function of how he (JB) has acted towards AC and the team since LA's return.

For the record AC has never said he won the TdF alone. He may have said he never felt like he had the full support of the team, but never that he did it alone. Heck, that's why he's so concerned with having a good team next year--because he knows that he can't do it alone.

As far as questioning team tactics and doubting JB's formula, I think that is a function of youth on AC's part but also age on JB's part. AC does need to be reigned in, because I think his attacking style can burn up his energy reserves quickly. That being said, he is a very instinctive and attacking rider, so to maximize his talents you have to allow him some room to operate and most importantly fail (see Paris Nice 2009, which I think Allain G was the DS). AC learned from that episode. As for JB, his TdF plan was an insult to the best stage racer in the world. In essence he said he didn't care who won out of the 4 but that makes no sense. If you've got the best guy by a wide margin why wouldn't you race for him to win? Certainly worked for JB from 1999-2005. No, I think that strategy was about giving LA a chance to show he still had it. If the team was dedicAted to AC from the beginning then LA is just a super domestique, but a domestique nonethless. JB owed it to AC
to put together a strategy and tactics that ensured he got the win. The fact that JB's relationship with LA prevented that is a failure on JB's part (and frankly underscores the point about JB not appreciating the effect LA had on him).

Finally, I think JB's commentary is designed to push AC's competitive button, but not in a good way. This is a mind game. He wants AC to do something irrational in response to this. AC is better served focusing on finding a new team and Andy Schleck who I believe is going to be a monster at next year's TdF. JB and LA are not now and will
never be again on their competitive level unless AC gives them the opportunity to be.

 

[peloton]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/bruyneels-year-of-living-stressfully

This says it all really.
That man is a piece of shiit.

 

[DavidVilla7]

Whoah...wtf... link please.

I heard/read that too, a long time ago, but I can't find the link.

And contador didn't said he won the tour alone, at least not litteraly.
His mother said that in the spanish media.

Oh and bruyneel still hasn't said anything about the accidents during the tour.
Yes, that's says enough.

 

[bianchigirl]

Contador said that he wasn't told about schedules and gearing at the training camp, which was effectively a kind of sabotage and definite mind games

 

[SpeedWay]

Does anyone really think this is anything new? I would have expected nothing less from the Hog (or LA). It's their style, like it or not.

When we get to post 100 you should have your answer.

 

[Mellow Velo]

To me, this is just another example of the revisionist Hogstrong PR machine backfiring, due to an excessive amount of....



A well matched pair of egos.

 

[racerralph]

Reading the article it seems a few things are clear. JB is CLEARLY lashing out at AC because he doesn't feel that AC has given him enough respect. I don't think JB understands/appreciates how Lance's return to the team affected not only AC but more importantly JB. In short, the lack of respect he perceives is in part a function of how he (JB) has acted towards AC and the team since LA's return.

For the record AC has never said he won the TdF alone. He may have said he never felt like he had the full support of the team, but never that he did it alone. Heck, that's why he's so concerned with having a good team next year--because he knows that he can't do it alone.

As far as questioning team tactics and doubting JB's formula, I think that is a function of youth on AC's part but also age on JB's part. AC does need to be reigned in, because I think his attacking style can burn up his energy reserves quickly. That being said, he is a very instinctive and attacking rider, so to maximize his talents you have to allow him some room to operate and most importantly fail (see Paris Nice 2009, which I think Allain G was the DS). AC learned from that episode. As for JB, his TdF plan was an insult to the best stage racer in the world. In essence he said he didn't care who won out of the 4 but that makes no sense. If you've got the best guy by a wide margin why wouldn't you race for him to win? Certainly worked for JB from 1999-2005. No, I think that strategy was about giving LA a chance to show he still had it. If the team was dedicAted to AC from the beginning then LA is just a super domestique, but a domestique nonethless. JB owed it to AC
to put together a strategy and tactics that ensured he got the win. The fact that JB's relationship with LA prevented that is a failure on JB's part (and frankly underscores the point about JB not appreciating the effect LA had on him).

Finally, I think JB's commentary is designed to push AC's competitive button, but not in a good way. This is a mind game. He wants AC to do something irrational in response to this. AC is better served focusing on finding a new team and Andy Schleck who I believe is going to be a monster at next year's TdF. JB and LA are not now and will
never be again on their competitive level unless AC gives them the opportunity to be.

Absolutely! Well said. Unless the translation is incorrect,Isn't it interesting that JB said AC continues to say that he won the Tour on his own. JB then goes on to say that, that is absolutely/completely untrue. (Understand, "Absolutely" and "completely" are extreme words. Meaning that AC would not have won the Tour without the team) But then JB goes on to say that without the team, AC wouldn't have won that comfortably, or maybe not at all. C'mon JB, Make up your mind you hypocritical bunhole! I'll tell you what I saw: discomfort at every move AC made. He got banged for everything, from disobeying orders that never existed( which called JB's strategic involvement severely into question), to preventing Astana from completely filing the podium when he dropped Kloden.
Man, I cannot believe how completely JB and LA have turned me from a fan of theirs, into a fan who cannot wait for next years TdF to come around, and for Radio Shack to get their shorts set on fire at all the Grand Tours. As I said earlier, in another thread, I hope AC goes to the Tour of California and tears that trophy out of LL's grubby paws. Am I ****ed enough? Yeah, I guess I am. But the sheer outlandish nerve of JB is incredible!!! Does he really think that one day( actually, when LA retires...again) when AC gets older and wiser, AC might seek him out for another round of his ridiculous tutelage, and more insult???!!! Hopefully, AC will never look back to this man, JB doesn't deserve it. Wow, his obviously bitter feelings, and his commencement of the mind games are really are not very complimentary, and betray much deeper feelings, of his inability and failure to control AC in France, and gift #8 to LA. Too bad, JB& LA missed the moment. JB ought to stop *****ing about AC, and understand that there are going to be a lot more competitive riders in the Tour next year that LA is going to have to contend with.

 

[TRDean]

Absolutely! Well said. Unless the translation is incorrect,Isn't it interesting that JB said AC continues to say that he won the Tour on his own. JB then goes on to say that, that is absolutely/completely untrue. (Understand, "Absolutely" and "completely" are extreme words. Meaning that AC would not have won the Tour without the team) But then JB goes on to say that without the team, AC wouldn't have won that comfortably, or maybe not at all. C'mon JB, Make up your mind you hypocritical bunhole! I'll tell you what I saw: discomfort at every move AC made. He got banged for everything, from disobeying orders that never existed( which called JB's strategic involvement severely into question), to preventing Astana from completely filing the podium when he dropped Kloden.
Man, I cannot believe how completely JB and LA have turned me from a fan of theirs, into a fan who cannot wait for next years TdF to come around, and for Radio Shack to get their shorts set on fire at all the Grand Tours. As I said earlier, in another thread, I hope AC goes to the Tour of California and tears that trophy out of LL's grubby paws. Am I ****ed enough? Yeah, I guess I am. But the sheer outlandish nerve of JB is incredible!!! Does he really think that one day( actually, when LA retires...again) when AC gets older and wiser, AC might seek him out for another round of his ridiculous tutelage, and more insult???!!! Hopefully, AC will never look back to this man, JB doesn't deserve it. Wow, his obviously bitter feelings, and his commencement of the mind games are really are not very complimentary, and betray much deeper feelings, of his inability and failure to control AC in France, and gift #8 to LA. Too bad, JB& LA missed the moment. JB ought to stop *****ing about AC, and understand that there are going to be a lot more competitive riders in the Tour next year that LA is going to have to contend with.

I think your ****ed enough...but very well said, and I totally agree. Especially about the part of AC winning California. That would be sweet. LL is such a LA douch bag!!

 

[red_flanders]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/bruyneels-year-of-living-stressfully

This says it all really.

Cyclingnews makes the correct (and obvious) observation.

What becomes clear throughout the Belgian's commentary on La Grande Boucle is that the focus was on Armstrong, despite Contador's superiority on the road.

 

[Publicus]

Cyclingnews makes the correct (and obvious) observation.

I agree. JB needs to take a step back and re-examine his own actions during the TdF to understand why AC might have responded to him in the ways that he did. I will say this, any young rider should read his comments about AC and take them to heart. If your name isn't Lance Armstrong or you haven't pledged fealty to him and his goals, it might as well be mud.

 

[richwagmn]

I agree. JB needs to take a step back and re-examine his own actions during the TdF to understand why AC might have responded to him in the ways that he did. I will say this, any young rider should read his comments about AC and take them to heart. If your name isn't Lance Armstrong or you haven't pledged fealty to him and his goals, it might as well be mud.

Very well said.

AC knew full well what he was up against. If he had any sliver of a doubt, it was erased after the stage to La Grande Motte.

That's why he attacked on Arcalis. Had he not leapfrogged LA in the standings, the pressure would have built for AC to support LA which is astounding to even think about.

JB has said so many different things about the 2009 TDF I'm not sure what to believe. After AC cemented his tour lead, he said he always though AC would win. So why play the "we have multiple leaders" game? It can only be because of his man crush on LA.

BTW, Johann is accepting e-mails about anything regarding the 2009 season.

http://www.johanbruyneel.com/news_articles/askjohancalltoaction.html

 

[UpTheRoad]

Interesting article.

Bruyneel was offended that Vinokourov's press conference is in the hotel where Astana was staying. Really? Really??? I guess it was disrespectful to do that. But, why no mention of the timing of the TRS announcement? How convenient to skip over that. Quite disrespectful, too.

Also, who is the puppet and who is the puppeteer between Armstrong and the Hog? Both of them said the same thing, "Alberto still has much to learn." Funny that statement was preceded by "We all have the experience: we don't make mistakes anymore."

Despite all his years of experience, Armstrong certainly made a big mistake on the Columbiere when he let Franck Schleck bridge. Tactically, I think Astana made a mistake when they were driving the chasing group on Verbier. Chasing your own teammate and pulling others in tow? And this guy doesn't like Vino? Yeah, right.

 

[Publicus]

Very well said.

AC knew full well what he was up against. If he had any sliver of a doubt, it was erased after the stage to La Grande Motte.

That's why he attacked on Arcalis. Had he not leapfrogged LA in the standings, the pressure would have built for AC to support LA which is astounding to even think about.

JB has said so many different things about the 2009 TDF I'm not sure what to believe. After AC cemented his tour lead, he said he always though AC would win. So why play the "we have multiple leaders" game? It can only be because of his man crush on LA.

BTW, Johann is accepting e-mails about anything regarding the 2009 season.

http://www.johanbruyneel.com/news_articles/askjohancalltoaction.html

Thanks. I'm not going to bother sending JB an email since I know he won't respond to any email that is critical of him and his handling of Team Astana this year.

 

[Beech Mtn]

All that business with the riders tweeting garbage about each other during the Tour just showed how weak a leader JB was. Leave that stuff on the bus; don't air the dirty laundry in public. Then the mess about Contador having no car on the day of the final TT, and his radio conveniently not working so he couldn't receive time splits. If any of that stuff had ever happened to Lance, JB would've been out on his rear so fast. It seems clear to me that JB is too weak to be a good manager. That made him perfect during the LA years, because Lance was a strong personality and control freak, and could run the team as he saw fit.

Hopefully Vino's return will bring back a strong center to Astana, whether AC stays wtih them or not. I'd like to see Astana thrive, post-Johan.

 

[Publicus]

Interesting article.

Bruyneel was offended that Vinokourov's press conference is in the hotel where Astana was staying. Really? Really??? I guess it was disrespectful to do that. But, why no mention of the timing of the TRS announcement? How convenient to skip over that. Quite disrespectful, too.

Also, who is the puppet and who is the puppeteer between Armstrong and the Hog? Both of them said the same thing, "Alberto still has much to learn." Funny that statement was preceded by "We all have the experience: we don't make mistakes anymore."

Despite all his years of experience, Armstrong certainly made a big mistake on the Columbiere when he let Franck Schleck bridge. Tactically, I think Astana made a mistake when they were driving the chasing group on Verbier. Chasing your own teammate and pulling others in tow? And this guy doesn't like Vino? Yeah, right.

I guarantee that this and other things (like playing multiple cards to win) will not be heard or seen during the Radio Shack days. No more teamwork, no more deciding it on the road. The strategy will be about getting and keeping Lance in yellow. Anything beyond that is immaterial.

 

[hfer07]

"We all have the experience: we don't make mistakes anymore."

But JB & LA never saw coming AC & the Kazakhs fvcking up their plans, now did they?

 

[RTMcFadden]

But JB & LA never saw coming AC & the Kazakhs fvcking up their plans, now did they?

I think they very much saw that coming. Hence the clause in JB's contract. As well, I believe this was the basis of the whole non-payment issue that happened before the TdF. Also, given that RS was announced during the tour, these negociations had to have been taking place much earlier in the year. So, I think they were all jocking for position since very early in the season.

 

[ggusta]

All that business with the riders tweeting garbage about each other during the Tour just showed how weak a leader JB was. Leave that stuff on the bus; don't air the dirty laundry in public. Then the mess about Contador having no car on the day of the final TT, and his radio conveniently not working so he couldn't receive time splits. If any of that stuff had ever happened to Lance, JB would've been out on his rear so fast. It seems clear to me that JB is too weak to be a good manager. That made him perfect during the LA years, because Lance was a strong personality and control freak, and could run the team as he saw fit.

Hopefully Vino's return will bring back a strong center to Astana, whether AC stays wtih them or not. I'd like to see Astana thrive, post-Johan.

This is the first I heard about the radio and the time splits on the TT. Sorry if this is common knowledge but .. link please.

 

[Publicus]

This is the first I heard about the radio and the time splits on the TT. Sorry if this is comon knowledge but .. link please.

First I heard of it either, but apparently it was the case:

After the stage, Contador said, “I am very happy” to win the stage. “I was thinking more of the overall ranking, and I didn’t really know what the stage result would be,” he explained. The Astana rider’s radio stopped working after 15 kilometers of today’s stage, and he had no idea of his time splits. “I was motivated to beat Cancellara after he beat me in the Olympics last year,” Contador concluded.

http://www.steephill.tv/2009/tour-de-france/previews-results/stage-18/

 

[ggusta]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/bruyneels-year-of-living-stressfully

This says it all really.
That man is a piece of shiit.

I think this puts any doubt on who is the puppet to rest. It's JB.

My favorite part was when it was a closely held secret that the broken collarbone almost ended the comeback. Closely held. Limited to anyone who was aware that Lance had broken his collarbone.

All I can think of is, this guy is just a tool. I hope the rest of the peloton can see through it now. Winning in sports is quite a con game. If you can convince yourself and your opponent that you are the best and you can't win, your opponent will enable you to win and themself to lose. I think the con is about over. It will be interesting to see how The Shlock races leading up to the tour.

I am more concerned about Andy Schleck with respect to AC at the tdf.