Cadel Evans is a Clean Champion

[blackcat]

Not at all.
You multi-paragraph post concludes with this:



Carlos Sastre is guilty by dodgy team association only.
Feminal then names Cadel's lengthy list of dodgy teams.
TommyV et al? Suspicious performance only.
Only dodgy team suspicions.

To me, this is an example of fluctuating standards of proof.

So, I'm not comparing just Wiggins to Evans, but Evans to the acceptable level of proof of "suspicion".

Having said that, that one word "Leinders" does seem to carry a heck of a lot of weight, when it comes to tipping the scales of justice round here.

forgot one thing.

dodgy sport

pointy end of said dodgy sport

ergo... dodgy sport begets decisions which are perhaps unique to the constitution of the individual. An individual who would never lie or seek to take advantage of others, outside this milieu

 

[gatete]

Jalina, the reason the spotlight isn't on Evans as much as say Wiggo is because there is hardly anything to look at. Even jimmy fingers said Sky couldn't have done a better job of looking guilty if they tried.

As has been observed numerous times, the Ferrari link is well known, clearly documented, but tenuous at best precisely BECAUSE of this. 2001, a very young man not a road pro, by manager Rominger (doper). Sure he would have heard about Ferrari, but this was before notoriety. As opposed to Dodger four years later AFTER the scandal and sanction, after Simeoni.

As an Aussie, you know as well as anyone that if it is shown he had FURTHER links to Ferrari, he will be totally destroyed by public Government and commercial backlash and cycling in Australia will be devastated.

I wod have suspected that some blogger sleuth would have by now uncovered any possible link to doping. After all he is last years TdF winner, only 3 years ago WC winner. Recent history, and because of his accolades, because of public perception of "clean", it would be a tremendous career making scoop.

Wasn't 2001 the year Greg Lemmond say the: if Armstrong is link with Ferrari it will be very disappointing? 2001 seems like so long ago but it strikes me as a coincidence that the very same year these two events happened and yet we're still suggesting that there is no way Cadel could've known

 

[sittingbison]

...Leinders means close to nothing in that decision. The comparison between a team doping doctor and Ferrari and Fuentes is hilarious. Leinders is not a smoking gun and the idea that if Leinders or another doctor with a past (Max Testa?) is the central argument for believing a rider dopes is ridiculous...

it appears from Franklins observations, the courts in Holland and the words of team manager de Rooyij (sic) that Leinders was on management, was implicitly connected to and orchestrated a team based doping program at Rabobank, and was a fraud. Might not be in the same league as Ferrari and Feuntes (who are?) who had private clients from all over, but right in the top echelon of doping doctors. His major problem particularly for Sky is the "team based doping program" bit. However I point out this was at Rabobank.

Ferminal, good spot about the soigneur being picked up with EPO I forgot that one. That is definitely a mark against Evans, circumstantial evidence. I have edited a previous post with for and against arguments.

 

[blackcat]

You are talking as a Brit. I suggest you do not know what you are talking about.

Also - you still have not answered the question: what did I make up in the Sky thread?

...you made up that the Sky its blue. You made that part up. Most of the kit, its black.

 

[blackcat]

That is what I have always thought about it. I remember distinctly Bruyneel was the only DS who called it. He said Cadel wouldn't win. I've been pretty sure he had word that Cadel was not getting enough blood bags.

Are you saying Cadel didn't blood dope? I'm a bit perplexed with your wording in multiple posts so I thought I'd ask. IMO, he blood doped, he just didn't get as much as his opposition at all times. Like in 2006 and 2008. And also relative to how much Levi put in during the last week of the 2007 Tour. Cadel always seemed like he didn't get as much as some guys did. Can't say that though for 2011, unless they all came down to his level, which is a possibility. However that ain't the case for 2012 and sadly says a great deal about Sky and Nibali.

no, I dont think he was using transfusions. He may have been using micro dosing to maintain his natural crit of 43. I dont see how he could be sooo successful in a dirty field, and always struggle to hang on climbs when the smack went down.

I dont think he took up the blood vector techniques like he would have been well within his right to (to compete). he should have won more than he did, virtue of his endogenous ability.

my points are pretty sketchy, I concede

 

[blackcat]

The first people on Sky picked on WERE THE AUSSIES BY THE AUSSIES. Nice job genius. Once again using your double digit IQ to waste time. Go use your fingers to whack off over your poster of Wiggo rather than pester the forum with your keyboard.

hahahahha

what a zinger

what if jimmy fingers is female?

 

[blackcat]

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...nly-spoke-to-ferrari-once-20121022-2816e.html

hopeless AAP wire. His career started in 2002 on the road full time, with Mapei.

2001 he was a stagiare with Saeco Cannondale in Wiesbauer Rund Tour of Austria when he was seconded from the Cannondale mtb team.


I dont think anyone has made mention of the word coming out of Mapei in 2002 Giro, when Evans hld the maglia rosa for about 3 or 4 days, and atleast two stages into the mtns. Tho he bonked or hunger flatted in the second mtn stage (question on memory)

He went into 2002 as support rider for Garzelli.

After the 2002 Giro, the Mapei physioligists and doctors were happy or impressed, and the line that has been attributed since is "<words to effect of> was stellar rider, we are impressed, we had not given him any PED support and that made the effort so noteworthy"

so that is in support of Evans. If he had been with Ferrari, that line is either apocryphal, or PR misinformation. And Mapei do not do PR like Armstrong or Garmin. Tho there was a positive in about 2002 or 2003 from a Fassa or Mapei rider atttributed to a spiked bidon/drink bottle.

I am thinking that this line about Evans performance in 2002 Giro, coming out of Mapei mouths, was genuine, and not apocyphal.

Opinions anyone else?

 

[TubularBills]

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...nly-spoke-to-ferrari-once-20121022-2816e.html

hopeless AAP wire. His career started in 2002 on the road full time, with Mapei.

2001 he was a stagiare with Saeco Cannondale in Weisbaur Rund Tour of Austria when he was seconded from the Cannondale mtb team.


I dont think anyone has made mention of the word coming out of Mapei in 2002 Giro, when Evans hld the maglia rosa for about 3 or 4 days, and atleast two stages into the mtns. Tho he bonked or hunger flatted in the second mtn stage (question on memory)

He went into 2002 as support rider for Garzelli.

After the 2002 Giro, the Mapei physioligists and doctors were happy or impressed, and the line that has been attributed since is "<words to effect of> was stellar rider, we are impressed, we had not given him any PED support and that made the effort so noteworthy"

so that is in support of Evans. If he had been with Ferrari, that line is either apocryphal, or PR misinformation. And Mapei do not do PR like Armstrong or Garmin. Tho there was a positive in about 2002 or 2003 from a Fassa or Mapei rider atttributed to a spiked bidon/drink bottle.

I am thinking that this line about Evans performance in 2002 Giro, coming out of Mapei mouths, was genuine, and not apocyphal.

Opinions anyone else?

Cadel Evans branded TP? Thrown from the caravan at TDF 2013?

 

[blackcat]

TP? what is a TP?

though, always hear the line on Gilbert clean rider. and Moncoutie.

Bassons is the only guy I believe in.

 

[sittingbison]

Wasn't 2001 the year Greg Lemmond say the: if Armstrong is link with Ferrari it will be very disappointing? 2001 seems like so long ago but it strikes me as a coincidence that the very same year these two events happened and yet we're still suggesting that there is no way Cadel could've known

Exactly gatete. As I said he would have been aware of who Ferrari was, and stories.

However look at the experience differential. At this moment in 2001, Lemond has ridden 16 grand tours, won three TdFs and world champion twice. Armstrong has been World Champion, ridden in eight grand tours, and also "won" three TdFs. Evans is 23yo, and not yet a professional road racer. Would you expect the Evans of 2001 to have the same nouse and insight into Ferrari and doping in the peleton, as LeMond and Armstrong?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

As I have also said before, if it is shown by an investigative journo or a blogger sleuth (who now have an open hunting license on cyclists especially last years TdF winner touted as clean) that Evans has lied even ONCE or prevaricated in any way about Ferrari, he will be totally destroyed. You think Armstrong is bad? He is small fry in the USA in comparison to Evans in Australia, where he is pretty mush the absolute top of sportspeople recognition and fame.

 

[TubularBills]

TP? what is a TP?

though, always hear the line on Gilbert clean rider. and Moncoutie.

Bassons is the only guy I believe in.

Apologies, 'TP' is slang (in the US) for toilet paper (a cleaning product for personal hygiene).

Gilbert and Moncoutie are positively users.

Bassons does too, but a better brand. i.e CLEAN.

 

[700cFormerPro]

The topic of this thread is laughable.

 

[TubularBills]

Unless you've raced on the same team as with Mr. Evans, I do not think anyone in a position to make comments as to his abidance with anti-doping rules.

The topic of this thread is laughable.

Agreed.

There is no way anyone could make the statement that "Cadel Evans is a Clean Champion!"

Well said.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

But this is a discussion forum.. no?

 

[TubularBills]

But this is a discussion forum.. no?

True enough. But 'discussion' does presuppose doubt and debate? No?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

True enough. But 'discussion' does presuppose doubt and debate? No?

Yes, let's call it a draw then eh!

 

[Dear Wiggo]

True enough. But 'discussion' does presuppose doubt and debate? No?

Someone else can bring the doubt, we'll bring the debate

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Someone else can bring the doubt, we'll bring the debate

Certainly they can -- present a bill for such services; after all -- we are not Communists, we can all draw the water from the well.
Barziniesque.

 

[TubularBills]

All love. All sport.

Chapeau.

 

[Maxiton]

Originally Posted by 700cFormerPro
Unless you've raced on the same team as with Mr. Evans, I do not think anyone in a position to make comments as to his abidance with anti-doping rules.

The topic of this thread is laughable.

Agreed.

There is no way anyone could make the statement that "Cadel Evans is a Clean Champion!"

Well said.

Okay, how about this:

Cadel Evans is a Noble, Sterling, Pristine Champion

 

[TubularBills]

Okay, how about this:

Cadel Evans is a Noble, Sterling, Pristine Champion

Precisely.

 

[Maxiton]

Okay, how about this:

Cadel Evans is a Noble, Sterling, Pristine Champion

Precisely.

Who may also be clean, more or less.

EDIT:

Seriously, given the culture of pro cycling over its past, and given its practice of omerta, I think we have to see the sport as existing on a spectrum of medical preparation (AKA doping), rather than as being a clean/dirty dichotomy. Now, on this spectrum there are no doubt outliers - at one extreme, a few, probably exceedingly few, who refuse on principle all medical preparation - few of whom if any ride for GC; and at the other extreme, star riders and whole teams who are on full-blown, sophisticated programs. And because of omerta, it's sometimes difficult - a real guessing game - to know who is who.

That, sadly, is the nature of our sport. And that's what makes the idea of a clean champion a fantasy, if not an outright lie.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Why would you even bother writing exactly the same thing as everyone else.

http://www.cadelevans.com.au/cadelsdiary.aspx

Tuesday, 23 October 2012

Whilst the work for our 2013 season has started both on and off the bike and next year's Tour de France route is about to be announced, cycling is still in the news...

Behind the news, hysteria and sensationalism, I hope that people remember that the events being uncovered mostly occurred seven or more years ago, amongst a minority of those involved in a sport which has already changed and moved on.

Whilst these events are difficult and confronting to deal with now, both for those directly involved in the sport and for many around the world who follow cycling, let's commend the authorities who are succeeding in the battle against doping; learn from these events which are the driving forces behind major changes and clean-ups in cycling, and have bought the sport to where it is today - not on the front page of tabloid newspaper - but to a level playing field where the hard work, meticulous equipment preparation and natural ability are winning the big beautiful prestigious races.

For those who are disappointed with the situation right now: do not dispair, do not abandon us now we are in our best years, preparing things for our most important moment yet - the future...

Reasoned decision PR bingo 2.0 through and through.

 

[AussieEdge]

To be honest he doesn't talk a lot in the media/pubic though

 

[Dear Wiggo]

To be honest he doesn't talk a lot in the media/pubic though

Well aware of that. Even more reason to make what you say worth saying, and not some regurgitated repeat of what everyone else is saying.

I am disappointed.