# Can any riders based in Spain be considered clean ?

#### bigcog

Given the number of out of competition blood tests done in Spain, or lack of more accurately, can any rider be considered clean if they are based in Spain:

"
Around the World

For a greater sense of a global perspective there were a total of 4,352 bio passport out-of-competition blood tests in 2012 in cycling with 3,262 of those directly coming from the UCI. Compare Colombia's lack of tests with Spain's national federation, who conducted just three tests in the same period and one can ascertain that out-of-competition blood tests are well below the in-competition number. For reference the Republic of Ireland carried out 30 blood tests out of competition in 2012, USADA did 62, and Russia 128.
"

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/does-colombias-anti-doping-stand-up-to-scrutiny

Just 3 tests of this sort in 2012, laughable.

#### Justinr

BANNED
bigcog said:
Given the number of out of competition tests done in Spain, or lack of more accurately, can any rider be considered clean if they are based in Spain:

"
Around the World

For a greater sense of a global perspective there were a total of 4,352 bio passport out-of-competition blood tests in 2012 in cycling with 3,262 of those directly coming from the UCI. Compare Colombia's lack of tests with Spain's national federation, who conducted just three tests in the same period and one can ascertain that out-of-competition blood tests are well below the in-competition number. For reference the Republic of Ireland carried out 30 blood tests out of competition in 2012, USADA did 62, and Russia 128.
"

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/does-colombias-anti-doping-stand-up-to-scrutiny

Just 3 tests in 2012. FFS

Well like a lot of things its about proving a negative.

In the past a lot of riders who have doped have based themselves in Spain (because of the lax attitude). However it doesn't therefore follow that if a rider is based in Spain they are doping.

In Mathematical Terms: A => B does not mean B => A

Or in English: "If it rains I need an umbrella with me" (A => B) does not mean "I have an umbrella therefore it must be raining" (B => A)

#### Justinr

BANNED
bigcog said:
Given the number of out of competition blood tests done in Spain, or lack of more accurately, can any rider be considered clean if they are based in Spain:

"
Around the World

For a greater sense of a global perspective there were a total of 4,352 bio passport out-of-competition blood tests in 2012 in cycling with 3,262 of those directly coming from the UCI. Compare Colombia's lack of tests with Spain's national federation, who conducted just three tests in the same period and one can ascertain that out-of-competition blood tests are well below the in-competition number. For reference the Republic of Ireland carried out 30 blood tests out of competition in 2012, USADA did 62, and Russia 128.
"

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/does-colombias-anti-doping-stand-up-to-scrutiny

Just 3 tests of this sort in 2012, laughable.

Did Spain REALLY only do 3 OOC blood tests?

Makes you question why a lot of Spanish riders (Berty...) were exonerated early on in the Puerto investigation, and also why the Puerto judge would order the destruction of the blood bags ...

#### Dazed and Confused

Cobo was likely clean in 2012:

Anyway, the testing effort is pathetic. Why can't UCI set minimum standards for this type of stuff? Lack of cash?

#### bigcog

Justinr said:
Did Spain REALLY only do 3 OOC blood tests?

Makes you question why a lot of Spanish riders (Berty...) were exonerated early on in the Puerto investigation, and also why the Puerto judge would order the destruction of the blood bags ...

Exactly, utterly farcical. It's been obvious especially since riders, not just spanish, based themselves in Girona.

#### Justinr

BANNED
Dazed and Confused said:
Cobo was likely clean in 2012:

Anyway, the testing effort is pathetic. Why can't UCI set minimum standards for this type of stuff? Lack of cash?

Agree. The UCI should be mandating the same number of tests for every rider regardless of where they are from and where they are based.

#### DirtyWorks

I'm not sure why the idea the UCI has an interest in a vigorous anti-doping effort lives on. What they are interested in is doping controversy management as a way to grow cycling revenues.

There's no rule athletes must be tested, only that a NADO exist to follow an anti-doping authority's test request. Chances are excellent anti-doping is underfunded in Spain. All of that is completely within the rules.

#### Benotti69

The doping culture has not changed. The lack of tests proves this.

#### twisted pairs

Justinr said:
In the past a lot of riders who have doped have based themselves in Spain (because of the lax attitude).)

Technically, I think many riders were based in Spain because there were no laws against doping up until Fuentes. No one wants to spend time behind bars like Millar.

#### jens_attacks

bigcog said:
Exactly, utterly farcical. It's been obvious especially since riders, not just spanish, based themselves in Girona.

now think that most of those anti-doping officers, vampires are actually friends with the riders and will let all kind of things happen if they get a bottle with an autograph or a t-shirt haha.

bring health officers to all the races to watch rider's health and get rid of anti-doping, a waste of money and time.

#### Benotti69

3 OOC tests in Spain, bet they dont bother to even travel to Tenerife

Pity, the weather is so good the tested could get some miles in the legs

#### Justinr

BANNED
Benotti69 said:
The doping culture has not changed. The lack of tests proves this.

You know what, having read the last few posts and having had a few beers I feel I could be a better UCI President than the ones we have had in the past, although lets give Cookson a chance as it is still < 1 year.

#### Justinr

BANNED
Benotti69 said:
3 OOC tests in Spain, bet they dont bother to even travel to Tenerife

Pity, the weather is so good the tested could get some miles in the legs

We've been on about testing in Spain. How does it work - is it aimed at Spanish riders or riders based in Spain? I hate to say it but I bet the Spanish agencies do the least amount of testing they can get away with on their own riders ...

And Tenerife - its well known that teams train there, teams that people suspect of being dodgy.

Who is responsible for testing - Spain or UCI or WADA? All I guess (or more realistically it falls through the gaps). I think this where the whole testing issue falls down. No coordination - the UCI needs to get a grip on Cycling testing.

#### Dear Wiggo

Justinr said:
You know what, having read the last few posts and having had a few beers I feel I could be a better UCI President than the ones we have had in the past, although lets give Cookson a chance as it is still < 1 year.

Um.

No.

Brailsford tells you his magical seatpost bolts story and you believe him in an instant. I hate to think how easily you'd be hoodwinked that his riders are cleans without any corroborating evidence whatsoever.

#### TheGame

Justinr said:
Did Spain REALLY only do 3 OOC blood tests?

Makes you question why a lot of Spanish riders (Berty...) were exonerated early on in the Puerto investigation, and also why the Puerto judge would order the destruction of the blood bags ...

Because the tests done in Spain fall in the UCI total of over 4000 tests.

So yes, Spanish Cycling Fed only did 3 tests on behalf of the Spanish Cycling Fed. That doesn't mean they didn't do tests at the request of the UCI that fall in the UCI's totals.

Benotti69 said:
3 OOC tests in Spain, bet they dont bother to even travel to Tenerife

Pity, the weather is so good the tested could get some miles in the legs

3 ABP test's

If you look at the figures, Spanish Cycling Federation also only did 8 in competition tests for EPO, and 21 out of competition.

If anyone really believes that there were only 8 in competition EPO tests in the whole of Spanish cycling, they are on drugs. The Spanish test figures largely fall in the UCI totals.

This is the problem with a governing body that handles nearly 60% of the testing in the sport.

#### Dear Wiggo

Anyone else notice that most countries have their anti-doping body doing the OOC tests. But in Spain, their anti-doping body do 1 test and the Federation themselves are the ones doing the purported 3 OOC tests?

#### TheGame

Justinr said:
the UCI needs to get a grip on Cycling testing.

Totally the opposite. The big flaw in cycling, along with Tennis and Football is the Governing Body is responsible for over half of the testing.

It should not be that way.

#### TheGame

Dear Wiggo said:
Anyone else notice that most countries have their anti-doping body doing the OOC tests. But in Spain, their anti-doping body do 1 test and the Federation themselves are the ones doing the purported 3 OOC tests?

Italy? Holland?

Again, they will fall in the UCI totals. Plenty of other countries not on that list either.

CONI only 2 samples, but again, nobody honestly believes there were only 2 ABP samples taken from Italian Athletes in 2012. The figures are deceptive because UCI handles the controls.

Benson should know this frankly.

#### Dear Wiggo

Is Tenerife considered part of Spain?

Clearly the OOC testing must not rely solely on the country itself?

#### TheGame

Far better to look at the Lab totals.

Spanish labs put through 800 ABP samples in 2012. Dan is talking ******** with his figure of 3.

#### DirtyWorks

TheGame said:
Far better to look at the Lab totals.

Spanish labs put through 800 ABP samples in 2012. Dan is talking ******** with his figure of 3.

You are relying on a false assumption that tests done by a Spanish lab means that the athletes tested were all Spanish.

Imagine Lars Boom is training in some fabulous Spanish locale. He's updated his ADAMS information. He gets a call that testers will be by during his available window. The test will likely be processed in Spain and therefore appear in the table you published. But Boom is not Spanish.

The complicated question is which anti-doping authority ordered the OOC test? His home federation? The UCI? A race he's scheduled to attend? How does the test appear in the statistics? Dear Wiggo's table is as close as you can get.

With the UCI ordering the vast majority of tests, they are free to ignore positive results to better manage doping controversy and control teams.

#### TheGame

So of the 800 ABP tests processed by Spanish Labs, 797 were of non-spanish Athletes

of course not.

The 800 figure is as unreliable as the 3 figure.

#### Benotti69

TheGame said:
Far better to look at the Lab totals.

Far better if UCI published riders tests, results and anything else that helped with transparency, like vo2max, weight etc etc

#### neineinei

Dear Wiggo said:
Anyone else notice that most countries have their anti-doping body doing the OOC tests. But in Spain, their anti-doping body do 1 test and the Federation themselves are the ones doing the purported 3 OOC tests?

The most noticeable thing about that list is how short it is. Most countries aren't on it, where are the Brits for instance? At least the Spanish knew how to do ABP tests for cycling.