Cancellara

[CycloErgoSum]

I am not really sure about the luekemans one, it just looked like Canc motored away from him... I don't really know how he could have expected Canc to work with him if he could ride him of his wheel like that. The Flecha one, not so sure, but really, what else was Hushovd going to do? He was always going to take him in the sprint...

edit: Agree with you Cyclo about Canc's attitude. Boonen had been jumping on everything that tried to go away from the front, he goes to get food and water and Cancellara attacks...

Yeah, Boonen is old school and Canc is modern. I guess it takes all types. Boonen will be savaged at home for riding like an amateur today, but will anyone whose opinion matters question Canc's tactic?

 

[CycloErgoSum]

Leukemans was upset with Cancellara's motorpacing. Flecha's sarcastic applause was just silly.

Yeah, that could be it. But why did he object instead of taking advantage? The same moral sense that inspired Flecha? Cycling's a funny game...

 

[ChrisE]

Yeah, Boonen is old school and Canc is modern. I guess it takes all types. Boonen will be savaged at home for riding like an amateur today, but will anyone whose opinion matters question Canc's tactic?

He would've rode away no matter what was going on with the others. He doesn't need sneaky tricks to win, and why is it his job to turn around and make sure everybody is ready for him to stomp the gas?

Boonen just watched him go away. Nothing he could do.

 

[goggalor]

Yeah, that could be it. But why did he object instead of taking advantage? The same moral sense that inspired Flecha? Cycling's a funny game...

I think he was more upset with the motorcyclist actually. He was trying to get back on Cancellara's wheel but the moto helped him pull away.

 

[CycloErgoSum]

He would've rode away no matter what was going on with the others. He doesn't need sneaky tricks to win, and why is it his job to turn around and make sure everybody is ready for him to stomp the gas?

Boonen just watched him go away. Nothing he could do.

You're right, he doesn't need sneaky tricks to win. That's why I'm wondering whether it was insecurity or a desire to punish inattentiveness that was his motivation to attack when he did: it wasn't indiscriminate.

 

[Kazistuta]

As for Cancellara, well, it was a pretty sneaky move to attack when his only competition was refueling. A real sucker-punch of a move. His win is diminished because of this. He's not as sporting as Boonen who was seen to be congratulating Cancellara during the race when the latter chased down one of his attacks from the front.

(...)

For mine, however, a sporting champion isn't complete unless they're a decent guy as well. Cancellara doesn't fare well in this regard. He pontificates on other riders (re Cadel Evans Tour 09) and comes across as priggish. For a guy with legs as good as his, he'd do better to let them speak instead.

What is bike racing about? Amongst other exploiting your opponents inability to be alert. Spartacus' move was a geniality, as the pace slowed down and Tommeke happened to be in the middle of the pack. There was no way in h*** he could have known that noone else would follow, and there was likewise no way of knowing that Flecha/Hushovd/Pozzato etc. wouldn't work to get him back. Btw. Boonen wasn't exactly eating in the back, he was just taking a rest from his overeager attacks.

FC: "Excuse me, Tom...are you a bit tired? Should I wait a bit before attacking the rest of the group"
TB: "Yes please, Fabian...I am just gathering my strength to the next series of halfhearted attacks, so.."

How anyone can believe the move was a sucker-punch move is beyond my understanding.

Leukemans was upset with Cancellara's motorpacing. Flecha's sarcastic applause was just silly.

Well, Cancellara was definitely motorpacing at that particular moment, but any smart rider would have done the same. I think Leukemans' gesture was directed at the motorbike rider, who should've stayed further away.

I took Flechas gesture as an ironic greeting at Hushovd, but the outcome of his effort with Thor was pretty much written in stone beforehand, so he might wanted to have tried to get rid of the Thundergod before Roubaix.

 

[CycloErgoSum]

I think he was more upset with the motorcyclist actually. He was trying to get back on Cancellara's wheel but the moto helped him pull away.

Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks

 

[fatandfast]

I don't understand a goddam thing you are saying. the fact that you thought today's race was awesome is all I need to understand.

I am saying that you said "somebody" told you to post about Cancellara's win in a doping thread. You and "somebody" should stop posting ,watching and thinking about pro bike racing. The fact that you were disgusted means you need not watch. You should watch sports that are easier for you and "somebody" to understand like checkers or maybe paint drying. What was disgusting about the race? The fact that nobody could answer when Cancellara jumped has nothing to do with drugs. If you even watched the lines ,a TT champ not interested in drafting could take a smoother line than even a group of 2. 6 or 7 times on the video provided you can see that while Flecha and Hushovd attempt to chase together that one would be on cobbles while the other enjoyed the gutter.None of the chasers where even close to Cancellara at TT world's so taking a minute out of them is routine for him. You simply don't know anything about anyone you and "somebody" were watching. Cancellara has destroyed his competition so far, your drug reasoning should be sidelined for the facts, it's simply his time to shine. His high placings have his blood tested more than anybody else's. His wins in different countries make collusion even a bigger stretch of your imagination. The guy is just flying enjoy it, if not don't put it through your doper filter.

 

[peloton]

Horner yesterday, Cancellara today.
Two ridiculous performances in just two days.

The bio-passport is an utter joke.

edit. Mellow Velo, great minds and all that..

 

[Mellow Velo]

No different to yesterday's veteran ET performance, IMO.
I wonder how many of the guys being sick here today, were being sick, yesterday.

The bio passport is just a piece of PR cosmetics.

Oh, snap! peloton.

 

[LugHugger]

What is bike racing about? Amongst other exploiting your opponents inability to be alert. Spartacus' move was a geniality, as the pace slowed down and Tommeke happened to be in the middle of the pack. There was no way in h*** he could have known that noone else would follow, and there was likewise no way of knowing that Flecha/Hushovd/Pozzato etc. wouldn't work to get him back. Btw. Boonen wasn't exactly eating in the back, he was just taking a rest from his overeager attacks.

FC: "Excuse me, Tom...are you a bit tired? Should I wait a bit before attacking the rest of the group"
TB: "Yes please, Fabian...I am just gathering my strength to the next series of halfhearted attacks, so.."

How anyone can believe the move was a sucker-punch move is beyond my understanding.



Well, Cancellara was definitely motorpacing at that particular moment, but any smart rider would have done the same. I think Leukemans' gesture was directed at the motorbike rider, who should've stayed further away.

I took Flechas gesture as an ironic greeting at Hushovd, but the outcome of his effort with Thor was pretty much written in stone beforehand, so he might wanted to have tried to get rid of the Thundergod before Roubaix.

+1 Absolutely agreed. Boonen had attempted another one of his misinformed and mistimed "I'm Belgian and will win with an attack on the pave' and was soft pedalling backwards through the break when Cancellara attacked. That seems like good race tactics from Cancellara to me and tells me that Boonen learned nothing from the early races in the season when he tried the same tactics - and failed. I admire Boonen's agressiveness but to accuse Cancellara of bad sportsmanship is misinformed and misjudged.

 

[pedaldancer]

For mine, however, a sporting champion isn't complete unless they're a decent guy as well. Cancellara doesn't fare well in this regard. He pontificates on other riders (re Cadel Evans Tour 09) and comes across as priggish. For a guy with legs as good as his, he'd do better to let them speak instead.

Sorry, have you been living in a cave for the last month? His legs seem to be working fine... You can talk the talk if you can walk the walk springs to mind. And boy can Fabian walk. So don't sit there yapping that he hasn't won anything.

I really hope Boonen wins something big this year, but right now I have a horrible inkling that this could be that year when he was the first loser all season (don't pipe up telling me he will have had a good season with a couple of Qatar stages)... Shame because I have utmost respect for him as a person and favour his old school gents attitude.

For a couple of guy's that are level on experience, Boonen acted like the rookie digging like that so frequently and so early whilst Fabian waited (un-admirably may I add) for his chance and smashed the field apart.

Impressed Flecha has kept form.

 

[CycloErgoSum]

What is bike racing about? Amongst other exploiting your opponents inability to be alert. Spartacus' move was a geniality, as the pace slowed down and Tommeke happened to be in the middle of the pack. There was no way in h*** he could have known that noone else would follow, and there was likewise no way of knowing that Flecha/Hushovd/Pozzato etc. wouldn't work to get him back. Btw. Boonen wasn't exactly eating in the back, he was just taking a rest from his overeager attacks.

FC: "Excuse me, Tom...are you a bit tired? Should I wait a bit before attacking the rest of the group"
TB: "Yes please, Fabian...I am just gathering my strength to the next series of halfhearted attacks, so.."

How anyone can believe the move was a sucker-punch move is beyond my understanding.


Well, Cancellara was definitely motorpacing at that particular moment, but any smart rider would have done the same. I think Leukemans' gesture was directed at the motorbike rider, who should've stayed further away.

I took Flechas gesture as an ironic greeting at Hushovd, but the outcome of his effort with Thor was pretty much written in stone beforehand, so he might wanted to have tried to get rid of the Thundergod before Roubaix.

Understanding your interlocuter's POV is an essential social skill, so don't give up! I take your point, though: it's a sport and anything not expressly forbidden is ingenious.

The deeper question here is how we view sport. Do we want it populated by the best people or people at their best? It's a valid question as sports people are referred to as 'gladiators' (vis 'Spartacus') however they occupy a much higher status today than gladiators in the ancient world who were mostly slaves and other lowly types. Sports people today are richly rewarded, high-profile, influential and looked upon as role models. Sorry to get philosophical on your a$$

 

[CycloErgoSum]

Sorry, have you been living in a cave for the last month? His legs seem to be working fine... You can talk the talk if you can walk the walk springs to mind. And boy can Fabian walk. So don't sit there yapping that he hasn't won anything.
I really hope Boonen wins something big this year, but right now I have a horrible inkling that this could be that year when he was the first loser all season (don't pipe up telling me he will have had a good season with a couple of Qatar stages)... Shame because I have utmost respect for him as a person and favour his old school gents attitude.

For a couple of guy's that are level on experience, Boonen acted like the rookie digging like that so frequently and so early whilst Fabian waited (un-admirably may I add) for his chance and smashed the field apart.

Impressed Flecha has kept form.

I think you've misunderstood me. That's not what I was saying at all. With regards to your cliche, are you suggesting that only people who win have a valid opinion? You're doing a fair bit of talking yourself. Can I get a T-Shirt with your picture on it?

 

[Von Mises]

As for Cancellara, well, it was a pretty sneaky move to attack when his only competition was refueling. A real sucker-punch of a move. His win is diminished because of this. He's not as sporting as Boonen who was seen to be congratulating Cancellara during the race when the latter chased down one of his attacks from the front.

In the real politik world of professional sport, Cancellara's tactic is perhaps not so taboo where whatever it takes to win is permitted. He may even garner a few extra fans who like that type of thing. Boonen is bound to receive criticism too for what could only be called overconfidence and inattentiveness (but where the hell was his team?)

I just rewatched the moment when Cancellara attacked. Boonen was not eating or drinking, he was just taking it easy, caught napping.

 

[Kazistuta]

Yeah, that's my point exactly...or exactly not

I get that you see the whole "Cancellara attacking" situation very different from me, but still can't see any real arguments WHY it was ill mannered?

Where's the reasoning in "Fabians sucker punch move"? Had Boonen had a puncture? Was he talking to his DS behind the group? Was he stopped for a wizz? Where the riders strolling along in the supply zone? Oh no....wait...Boonen were getting some air in the middle of the group.... Shame on you, Cancellara!

Sorry for getting sarcastic etc....

As a side note: Fabian C told reporters afterwards that it wasn't a planned attack, he just felt like testing his rivals at that point...and when he got the lead he just had to "roll with it"...

 

[CycloErgoSum]

I just rewatched the moment when Cancellara attacked. Boonen was not eating or drinking, he was just taking it easy, caught napping.

Yeah, I know. He did go back for a bottle or something, had a gel and was drafting way back.

The big disappointment was everyone just gave up. There was no conviction or shared responsibility in the chase. Only two men thought they could win. One of them did.

 

[Pantheon of Greats]

I just rewatched the moment when Cancellara attacked. Boonen was not eating or drinking, he was just taking it easy, caught napping.

Agreed. It was a classic counter attack after a rider has burnt themselves out. Totally fair.

When Boonen tried his failed attacks he waited until there was three or four bikes in between him and FC, so he did the same thing. In his case it came to nothing though.

Also, I did not see any sarcastic clapping by Flecha at the finish. He was never going to win the sprint so began clapping before Hushovd crossed the line to make it clear he was not really contesting it. It was sportsmanship before the crowd.

 

[pedaldancer]

I think you've misunderstood me. That's not what I was saying at all. With regards to your cliche, are you suggesting that only people who win have a valid opinion? You're doing a fair bit of talking yourself. Can I get a T-Shirt with your picture on it?

Everyone has a valid opinion - as long as it has substance of course. I was merely trying to defend the fact that Fabian having a little arrogance is probably justified with his E3, Flanders and P-R wins, no? Let's say some neo-domestique pipes up and ruffles some feathers - has he got much to back himself up? Probably not.

As opposed to trying to mock my opinion how about explaining what you did mean? I am all ears despite your childish dig. There are rules to this forum. Please abide.

 

[ChrisE]

Also, I did not see any sarcastic clapping by Flecha at the finish. He was never going to win the sprint so began clapping before Hushovd crossed the line to make it clear he was not really contesting it. It was sportsmanship before the crowd.

I thought it was smarta$$. I always wonder why riders that can't sprint pull sprinters to the line.

 

[Von Mises]

Yeah, I know. He did go back for a bottle or something, had a gel and was drafting way back.

The big disappointment was everyone just gave up. There was no conviction or shared responsibility in the chase. Only two men thought they could win. One of them did.

He was actually drafting very much on Cancellaras wheel at the moment of attack - only one rider was between them. It was not much of an attack, some riders speeded up, Cancellara followed, they slowed down, Cancellara didnt...

Otherwise I agree. Everyone just gave up, no effort for organized chase up. That was definetly one of the reasons why Cancellara got huge lead.

 

[Race Radio]

Yeah, I know. He did go back for a bottle or something, had a gel and was drafting way back.

The big disappointment was everyone just gave up. There was no conviction or shared responsibility in the chase. Only two men thought they could win. One of them did.

I wouldn't say they gave up. It appeared they did not have anything left to chase. Boonen chased for a bit but it was clear the others were out of gas. As soon Flecha attacked the group just fell apart. I would not be suprised if Cacellara saw this and that is why he attacked. He waited for Boonen to finish his surge and attacked

 

[CycloErgoSum]

Yeah, that's my point exactly...or exactly not

I get that you see the whole "Cancellara attacking" situation very different from me, but still can't see any real arguments WHY it was ill mannered?

Where's the reasoning in "Fabians sucker punch move"? Had Boonen had a puncture? Was he talking to his DS behind the group? Was he stopped for a wizz? Where the riders strolling along in the supply zone? Oh no....wait...Boonen were getting some air in the middle of the group.... Shame on you, Cancellara!

Sorry for getting sarcastic etc....

As a side note: Fabian C told reporters afterwards that it wasn't a planned attack, he just felt like testing his rivals at that point...and when he got the lead he just had to "roll with it"...

Agreed, FC didn't attack during any of those taboo situations. In fact, there were ample riders proximal who could've, and in hindsight would have been prudent to, respond. It's also fairly likely no one could have done anything about FC's attack, such was its force. He shot through the breakaway who couldn't hold his wheel (turbomoto notwithstanding).

My criticism is more contextual or situational. From the position of a TV viewer, it appeared no one else was in the race but FC and TB, all others being ineffectual or moving obstacles. Perhaps unwisely, TB seemed to acknowledge FC as an equal, a rival. He appeared to communicate with FC in a respectful, covivial, almost jovial way when FC countered his attacks from the front. This is almost certainly unprofessional, possibly disrespectful to the other competitors, and smacks of hubris. It seemed to be the stuff of story, not reality. Herein lies my sympathy to TB: he was a good-natured fool like a character in a story. Someone like the way stories tell us to be (this probably tells us more about the people who write stories than people who compete at sports).

FC wasn't prepared to play this game. He just wanted to win, not be a great guy about it all.

TB was a romantic, FC a doer. TB was Don Quixote, the lovable but doomed fantasist. FC was Kate Croy, the aspiring pragmatist. We might respect her wiles, but we don't like her, unless we wan't to be her.

FC, the pragmatist, attacked with no little panache but with guile also. When he saw his rival removed from the front eating, drinking, drafting, dreaming he took flight like the wings of the dove and took advantage. It was smart, successful and ugly.

I've had enough of smart, successful and ugly. Give me beautiful but doomed.

Arguments without feeling are just sophistry.

Now, if you'll pardon me, I'm going to repair to something constructive yet beautiful. I hope the toilet is no longer blocked.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Agreed, FC didn't attack during any of those taboo situations. In fact, there were ample riders proximal who could've, and in hindsight would have been prudent to, respond. It's also fairly likely no one could have done anything about FC's attack, such was its force. He shot through the breakaway who couldn't hold his wheel (turbomoto notwithstanding).

My criticism is more contextual or situational. From the position of a TV viewer, it appeared no one else was in the race but FC and TB, all others being ineffectual or moving obstacles. Perhaps unwisely, TB seemed to acknowledge FC as an equal, a rival. He appeared to communicate with FC in a respectful, covivial, almost jovial way when FC countered his attacks from the front. This is almost certainly unprofessional, possibly disrespectful to the other competitors, and smacks of hubris. It seemed to be the stuff of story, not reality. Herein lies my sympathy to TB: he was a good-natured fool like a character in a story. Someone like the way stories tell us to be (this probably tells us more about the people who write stories than people who compete at sports).

FC wasn't prepared to play this game. He just wanted to win, not be a great guy about it all.

TB was a romantic, FC a doer. TB was Don Quixote, the lovable but doomed fantasist. FC was Kate Croy, the aspiring pragmatist. We might respect her wiles, but we don't like her, unless we wan't to be her.

FC, the pragmatist, attacked with no little panache but with guile also. When he saw his rival removed from the front eating, drinking, drafting, dreaming he took flight like the wings of the dove and took advantage. It was smart, successful and ugly.

I've had enough of smart, successful and ugly. Give me beautiful but doomed.

Arguments without feeling are just sophistry.

Now, if you'll pardon me, I'm going to repair to something constructive yet beautiful. I hope the toilet is no longer blocked.

Nice finish!

 

[CycloErgoSum]

Everyone has a valid opinion - as long as it has substance of course. I was merely trying to defend the fact that Fabian having a little arrogance is probably justified with his E3, Flanders and P-R wins, no? Let's say some neo-domestique pipes up and ruffles some feathers - has he got much to back himself up? Probably not.

As opposed to trying to mock my opinion how about explaining what you did mean? I am all ears despite your childish dig. There are rules to this forum. Please abide.

My point was: a rider with talent like FC doesn't need to use his mouth against rivals. His legs are always sufficient.

I don't agree that winners can act anyway they want because they're winners. It belittles them and their profession.

My apologies for earlier dig (but would it have been OK if I was a winner? It appears consistent with your post.)