Cannondale getting dropped in the new era of cycling

[Benotti69]

Re: Team Garmin getting dropped in the new era of cycling

Indeed. But that being the case it begs the question: why hasn't he had a Tour winner yet? I mean, if JV wrote the script, why does some other team get to win with it and not his own?

I think the Tour gets bought most years. JV can't offer that kind of 'funding'.

Remember Sky made a 'presentation' to ASO the year Wiggins won and McQuaid was looking forward to the Sky party on Champs E'lysse before the race was halfway over.

Also JV probably thinks he is smarter than the average bear and can win Le Tour his way.

 

[twisted pairs]

Re: Team Garmin getting dropped in the new era of cycling

I think the Tour gets bought most years. JV can't offer that kind of 'funding'.

I found myself laughing at this comment because a) it's probably true, and b) the simplicity and "matter-of-fact" nature of the statement is shocking given the implications. This sport ... [rollseyes]

 

[thehog]

Re: Team Garmin getting dropped in the new era of cycling

Good ride by Uran today

 

[Gloin22]

Re: Team Garmin getting dropped in the new era of cycling

Good ride by Uran today

Crashed. He's been awful in TTs anyway lately. He'll do better in climbs, but his hope of winning might just be gone

 

[More Strides than Rides]

While one part of me doesn't want to see a team fold, for the sake of riders who just got their start and whatever, I want nothing more than to see JV fail. I want this team to be so bad to have no hope of finding the sponsors to continue on next year.

 

[pastronef]

Re:

While one part of me doesn't want to see a team fold, for the sake of riders who just got their start and whatever, I want nothing more than to see JV fail. I want this team to be so bad to have no hope of finding the sponsors to continue on next year.

wow, why that? I mean, ok, JV narrative is known, but such anger isn't that good, no?

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re: Re:

While one part of me doesn't want to see a team fold, for the sake of riders who just got their start and whatever, I want nothing more than to see JV fail. I want this team to be so bad to have no hope of finding the sponsors to continue on next year.

wow, why that? I mean, ok, JV narrative is known, but such anger isn't that good, no?

Such anger? You mean enough anger to make a post on an internet forum? With regards to my health or well-being, "typing out a forum post" is a pretty low level of anger.

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

While one part of me doesn't want to see a team fold, for the sake of riders who just got their start and whatever, I want nothing more than to see JV fail. I want this team to be so bad to have no hope of finding the sponsors to continue on next year.

wow, why that? I mean, ok, JV narrative is known, but such anger isn't that good, no?

Such anger? You mean enough anger to make a post on an internet forum? With regards to my health or well-being, "typing out a forum post" is a pretty low level of anger.

ok, maybe I translated badly from Italian, but actually wishing "to be so bad and close down" is a bit angry

but well, if you can set up a new team without JV, and hire at least the mechanics, soigneurs and the team staff, I'm ok with the team folding

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Team Garmin getting dropped in the new era of cycling

My question is how long will it keep the show on the road? They remind me a bit of the Jordan F1 team, who had a similar highly visible owner/manager, who managed costs by using lots of young drivers and a few veterans, who played up their underdog status etc. They managed 14 years, but a cycling team's lifetime is generally a lot less than that.

I hadn't previously seen this post as I don't tend to follow this thread much, but this is an excellent comparison. The Jordan team came into the sport in 1991 armed with combinations of youngsters and pay drivers, and quickly grew so that by the mid-90s they were the "best of the rest" beneath the big super-funded teams and could get some pretty good drivers in, but typically those who had outstayed their welcome or weren't quite strong enough for the McLarens, Williamses and Ferraris of the world, and also offering a leg-up to younger drivers. People like Damon Hill late in his career, Heinz-Harald Frentzen, Ralf Schumacher and so on. In their heyday they even won a couple of races and made a number of podiums, but when the big manufacturer era began they were priced out of it, could no longer get in the previous big name drivers and by the last three or four years before they were bought out they were running a sorry procession of pay-drivers and inexperienced kids and retreated back to the very rear of the grid, somewhere they hadn't even been when they started out.

Likewise, Slipstream-Chipotle came into the sport as a pretty good ProContinental team, offered a haven to seemingly past-it riders and people who weren't strong enough to lead a Discovery, Caisse d'Epargne or CSC, brought through some kids, carved out an established and slightly idiosyncratic identity with the argyle (like the wasp-yellow Jordans of the Benson & Hedges sponsorship days) and a rent-a-quote team boss, becoming successful enough to keep people interested, and even picking up the occasional high profile win. However now it seems like they are headed into that last three or four years of Jordan phase, Hesjedal is no longer the rider he was (and probably never should have been), their best riders results-wise have started to move on (Martin, for example), they're left with some unreliable leaders, youngsters and people like Talansky and Moreno Moser who are trying to salvage a career to build on the promise they showed a few years back, and the bigger names who sustained them earlier are all retiring.

Maybe it's just the life-cycle of an overachieving team whose budget never managed to match the biggest, and so any advantages they had they were bound to lose once others with better resources caught on.

 

[Beech Mtn]

One of the annoying things about Garmin is how they absorbed other, more interesting teams into mergers, only to lose all the good parts out of the merged teams and continue being boring Garmin. They even managed to destroy Beyond the Peloton.

Both Cervelo and Liquigas were far more interesting to follow than Garmin, although in the Cervelo men's team case, the UCI's greed and short-sightedness was to blame also. And then there was the women's team.

 

[thehog]

Re:

One of the annoying things about Garmin is how they absorbed other, more interesting teams into mergers, only to lose all the good parts out of the merged teams and continue being boring Garmin. They even managed to destroy Beyond the Peloton.

Both Cervelo and Liquigas were far more interesting to follow than Garmin, although in the Cervelo men's team case, the UCI's greed and short-sightedness was to blame also. And then there was the women's team.

I have to agree. FDJ is more exciting than Garmin. Cervelo was a interesting team and Garmin like you say just made them boring. Garmin just have money and doesn't actually need to win anything so they just mearly exsist in the peloton to mearly talk about how clean cycling is... not much else. The Vaughters statements on Rolland's old training routines was just laughable. Rolland who loves an attack now and then has become boring. Same with Christophe Le Mével when he rode for them.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

There has got to come a point where a team sponsored by a bike manufacturer performs so badly that the deal becomes untenable. I was watching the ES coverage yesterday and the commentator (Hatch) was talking about how Valverde was on one of the best bikes and had the best skinsuit. I've no idea if there is any truth in that (I suspect not much) but I suspect folks are going to be buying this stuff. if I'm Cannondale why would I want to showcase my TT bikes being ridden by the worst TT team on the world tour ? (especially when they used to be one of the best teams). They're actually paying millions for this negative advertising

 

[TourOfSardinia]

It's time for JV to hope back over to this forum and explain
at least talk, sort of

 

[hrotha]

"Rolland will improve lots since we actually know how to train for the ITTs in this here team" -> Cue Urán's time-trialing getting massively worse.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

One of the annoying things about Garmin is how they absorbed other, more interesting teams into mergers, only to lose all the good parts out of the merged teams and continue being boring Garmin. They even managed to destroy Beyond the Peloton.

Both Cervelo and Liquigas were far more interesting to follow than Garmin, although in the Cervelo men's team case, the UCI's greed and short-sightedness was to blame also. And then there was the women's team.

I have to agree. FDJ is more exciting than Garmin. Cervelo was a interesting team and Garmin like you say just made them boring. Garmin just have money and doesn't actually need to win anything so they just mearly exsist in the peloton to mearly talk about how clean cycling is... not much else. The Vaughters statements on Rolland's old training routines was just laughable. Rolland who loves an attack now and then has become boring. Same with Christophe Le Mével when he rode for them.

Rolland doesn't exactly have a reputation for doing well in earlier races and this year, he has been better (Romandie) than I can remember the last 4-5 years in the early season. In that race, he did his usual 1-2 attack relatively long out with a teammate. So thats honestly not a very bright statement. You may dislike Garmin, but Rolland is a riders for the GT's and not anything else, really, and he won't stop attacking cause he changed teams unless he finally doesnt lose 10 minutes in the first week, some of the others are underperforming and such - a top 5 is still a huge feat.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

"Rolland will improve lots since we actually know how to train for the ITTs in this here team" -> Cue Urán's time-trialing getting massively worse.

JV lie!!! the very thought of it is enough to make the heart chill, no wait! He always lies...

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

"Rolland will improve lots since we actually know how to train for the ITTs in this here team" -> Cue Urán's time-trialing getting massively worse.

JV lie!!! the very thought of it is enough to make the heart chill, no wait! He always lies...

Agreed, its funny stuff from JV.

“The amount of improvement that that guy still has available to him was astounding to us and our sports scientists,” Vaughters told VeloNews. “He was training like someone was training in 1975. He’s really made some big improvements and that will be interesting to see this season.

“We were able to make larger improvements than I’ve ever seen, even with continental riders we are not able to improve them that much. It was just a massive improvement in his aerodynamics. Hopefully that will translate to the road, we don’t know yet, not until the first time trial of the year.”

Rolland’s first time trial should be his first race in Cannondale’s green argyle kit, at the Volta a la Comunitat Valenciana on February 3. From there, he’ll be on a road to the Tour with races like Paris-Nice and the Critérium du Dauphiné.

It is not just aerodynamics, but Cannondale hopes to provide protection when Rolland needs it in the busy Tour stages leading to the mountains. Vaughters said he would likely have riders like Dutchmen Dylan Van Baarle and Sebastian Langeveld, along with New Zealander Jack Bauer protecting Rolland.

“From the tactical standpoint, over the last six years, we noticed that the Tour de France has involved more and more on the flat stages to GC riders having their teams basically drag race up front to keep them out of trouble. That’s just not the way things were raced in 2008 or 2010, so that’s been a big evolution,” Vaughters said.

“Europcar was never really willing to follow that evolution. If you look at where Pierre lost his chunks of time in the Tour de France – where he’s consistently in the top 10 but not in the top five because he starts the mountains with a 10- or 12-minute deficit — it was because he was on his own in the flat stages or with just one guy to shepherd him around. He’d be caught behind big crashes, would lose out in splits and crashes.

“Just from a tactical standpoint, if we can have more powerful riders around him to keep him positioned well then it’s a game changer for him. If Pierre can start the mountains with a three-minute deficit and not a 13-minute deficit, then he becomes a genuine threat to the podium.”

http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/01/news/vaughters-on-rolland-he-was-training-like-someone-was-training-in-1975_392667#ArbwQgR1V0Lwq7J1.99

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

One of the annoying things about Garmin is how they absorbed other, more interesting teams into mergers, only to lose all the good parts out of the merged teams and continue being boring Garmin. They even managed to destroy Beyond the Peloton.

Both Cervelo and Liquigas were far more interesting to follow than Garmin, although in the Cervelo men's team case, the UCI's greed and short-sightedness was to blame also. And then there was the women's team.

I have to agree. FDJ is more exciting than Garmin. Cervelo was a interesting team and Garmin like you say just made them boring. Garmin just have money and doesn't actually need to win anything so they just mearly exsist in the peloton to mearly talk about how clean cycling is... not much else. The Vaughters statements on Rolland's old training routines was just laughable. Rolland who loves an attack now and then has become boring. Same with Christophe Le Mével when he rode for them.

Rolland doesn't exactly have a reputation for doing well in earlier races and this year, he has been better (Romandie) than I can remember the last 4-5 years in the early season. In that race, he did his usual 1-2 attack relatively long out with a teammate. So thats honestly not a very bright statement. You may dislike Garmin, but Rolland is a riders for the GT's and not anything else, really, and he won't stop attacking cause he changed teams unless he finally doesnt lose 10 minutes in the first week, some of the others are underperforming and such - a top 5 is still a huge feat.

4th in the Giro in 2014
1st Vuelta a Castilla y Leon in 2015

 

[NECyclist88]

Re: Team Garmin getting dropped in the new era of cycling

No GT wins for this team since the one stage win for Formolo at last year's Giro. They're not going to do this but they should start hunting stage wins now instead of putting all of their support behind Uran. Hard to see how Rigo has a shot at the podium with still another TT left. Looking at Cannondale's putrid results for 2015 and 2016, maybe they actually are a "clean" team (except for that whole Danielson thing).

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

One of the annoying things about Garmin is how they absorbed other, more interesting teams into mergers, only to lose all the good parts out of the merged teams and continue being boring Garmin. They even managed to destroy Beyond the Peloton.

Both Cervelo and Liquigas were far more interesting to follow than Garmin, although in the Cervelo men's team case, the UCI's greed and short-sightedness was to blame also. And then there was the women's team.

I have to agree. FDJ is more exciting than Garmin. Cervelo was a interesting team and Garmin like you say just made them boring. Garmin just have money and doesn't actually need to win anything so they just mearly exsist in the peloton to mearly talk about how clean cycling is... not much else. The Vaughters statements on Rolland's old training routines was just laughable. Rolland who loves an attack now and then has become boring. Same with Christophe Le Mével when he rode for them.

Rolland doesn't exactly have a reputation for doing well in earlier races and this year, he has been better (Romandie) than I can remember the last 4-5 years in the early season. In that race, he did his usual 1-2 attack relatively long out with a teammate. So thats honestly not a very bright statement. You may dislike Garmin, but Rolland is a riders for the GT's and not anything else, really, and he won't stop attacking cause he changed teams unless he finally doesnt lose 10 minutes in the first week, some of the others are underperforming and such - a top 5 is still a huge feat.

4th in the Giro in 2014
1st Vuelta a Castilla y Leon in 2015

Is it a tradition that when you post in the clinic you have to use that smiley constantly to ridicule the posters which necessarily dont have the same extremely pessimistic view of the sport and have an agenda against some people?

Rolland prepared specifically for the Giro in 2014. Please don't use that as an example, thats ludicrous.
He won Castilla y Leon in 2015, but that doesn't change the fact that Rolland year in and year out is a shadow of himself in the spring compared to the Tour and the Giro in 2014. A GT-man, similar to Aru, but more extreme.

 

[thehog]

Re: Team Garmin getting dropped in the new era of cycling

No GT wins for this team since the one stage win for Formolo at last year's Giro. They're not going to do this but they should start hunting stage wins now instead of putting all of their support behind Uran. Hard to see how Rigo has a shot at the podium with still another TT left. Looking at Cannondale's putrid results for 2015 and 2016, maybe they actually are a "clean" team (except for that whole Danielson thing).

Yeah, its not good but I'm not sure it matters. They just have a stack of money and bunch of riders who could do well at Gila and nothing else.

 

[jahn]

Re:

"Rolland will improve lots since we actually know how to train for the ITTs in this here team" -> Cue Urán's time-trialing getting massively worse.

I don't have a PHD in statistics but a single data point is generally not considered significant.

 

[thehog]

Re: Team Garmin getting dropped in the new era of cycling

Team Garmin/Cervelo/Cannodale have become a comedy team, they are there to tell jokes before the stage and that's about it. JV talks about sports science, new training methods and they still fail. Europacar has more success with crazy attacks and they aren't even in the peloton anymore!

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

"Rolland will improve lots since we actually know how to train for the ITTs in this here team" -> Cue Urán's time-trialing getting massively worse.

I don't have a PHD in statistics but a single data point is generally not considered significant.

No but it makes for a good chuckle.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Team Garmin getting dropped in the new era of cycling

Team Garmin/Cervelo/Cannodale have become a comedy team, they are there to tell jokes before the stage and that's about it. JV talks about sports science, new training methods and they still fail. European has more success with crazy attacks and they aren't even in the peloton anymore!

Uhmmm, they just won a stage in the TOC. That's not exactly the 2016 Pizzatime Gran Fondo.