Cannondale getting dropped in the new era of cycling

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Re: Re:

Galic Ho said:
thehog said:
burning said:
Looks like the %10 percent improvement does not mean anything on any race that matters
Yes, Rolland now not training like it is 1975 is still getting dropped like he did in 2015 and prior.

He did crash but had already dropped a minute.
Garmin aka Cannondale Drapac with JV at the helm, are where riders go to get paid and become mediocre.

Give Rollande some time, it was just a crash on a fast descent. He's looked fine so far.

What is not normal is his team mate who left Etixx, Rigoberto Uran, has had his chrono/time trial become a farce. He's dropped the ability to actually do well in that event.

By contrast, Dan Martin who left to join Etixx has improved over all as a rider. It's not week 3 of the Tour, but Martin's confidence is different; he seems to believe in himself.

Doping talk aside, I think it is kind of clear, post 2011, Garmin or JV's little venture has been a very poorly run professional racing outfit. Professional is simply a courtesy given to them. So many riders join that team and their career goes backwards.

Both Dan Martin and Ryder Hesjedal left...I wonder why?

Any talk attributed to riders training poorly and becoming "pro's" once they join Garmin aka JV, need to be silenced. The old 'lie' that the French train like they're in the dark ages needs to be put down. Started with the Americans and is once again being perpetuated it seems. JV should grow up and leave if he cannot get results.

Rolland off the back again today. I believe training techniques from 1975 woukd help much better.
 
Re:

IzzyStradlin said:
Or maybe Cannondale is really not taking advantage of certain methods?
Why would any doper join Slipstream(if they are clean which is what you're getting at) and see their performances get worse?
Rolland has been scratching around 8-12 positions of the tour for the last few years. What does he gain changing teams?
 
Re: Re:

AICA ribonucleotide said:
IzzyStradlin said:
Or maybe Cannondale is really not taking advantage of certain methods?
Why would any doper join Slipstream(if they are clean which is what you're getting at) and see their performances get worse?
Rolland has been scratching around 8-12 positions of the tour for the last few years. What does he gain changing teams?
Maybe they don't want to do drugs, but they do still want to get paid to race their bike?
 
May 26, 2010
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Re:

IzzyStradlin said:
Or maybe Cannondale is really not taking advantage of certain methods?
Then Vaughters would be very vocal about skinny riders racing up mountains and dominating TTs.

But then Tom Danielson got popped so we know Slipstream are not clean. They hired loads of known dopers and sold us BS like Hesjedal, EPO made him slower, or machine calibration error, twice in the 3rd week of a 2 different GTs.....yeah Vaughters runs a clean team.
 

Irondan

Administrator
Moderator
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
IzzyStradlin said:
Or maybe Cannondale is really not taking advantage of certain methods?
Then Vaughters would be very vocal about skinny riders racing up mountains and dominating TTs.

But then Tom Danielson got popped so we know Slipstream are not clean. They hired loads of known dopers and sold us BS like Hesjedal, EPO made him slower, or machine calibration error, twice in the 3rd week of a 2 different GTs.....yeah Vaughters runs a clean team.
TD's positive automatically removes the words "clean team" from the conversation. Although, JV hasn't been selling that snakeoil in the past couple seasons, not since Cannondale bought in.

Does Cannondale care more about results than their riders being pack fodder? Yes, I'm sure they do. TD's pos answers that question.
 
Mar 9, 2013
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JV is SELLING a product. His Product is a "Clean" Team. ( His words not mine)

Cannondale, Garmin, Slipstream, Chipolte, Drapic. All want that product. If your a Sponsor and your signing with JV. That is what he is selling. So if you want wins? You go to another probably non-MPC team.

Now Johann Bruyneel. Made a good point on Twitter recently. JV likes to court other teams Sponsors. This is his 3rd merger. In a time of cash strapped cycling sponsorships. He goes where the money is. He also is smart enough to sell certain titles. "Clean Team"......now "Moneyball" approach.
Which in hindsight is what he has to do. Low wage-High upside riders. He is gambling and looking at metrics to try and find riders who fit that mold.

He is SELLING a product. What that product is? Well that is your opinion.
 

Irondan

Administrator
Moderator
Re:

thehook said:
JV is SELLING a product. His Product is a "Clean" Team. ( His words not mine)

Cannondale, Garmin, Slipstream, Chipolte, Drapic. All want that product. If your a Sponsor and your signing with JV. That is what he is selling. So if you want wins? You go to another probably non-MPC team.

Now Johann Bruyneel. Made a good point on Twitter recently. JV likes to court other teams Sponsors. This is his 3rd merger. In a time of cash strapped cycling sponsorships. He goes where the money is. He also is smart enough to sell certain titles. "Clean Team"......now "Moneyball" approach.
Which in hindsight is what he has to do. Low wage-High upside riders. He is gambling and looking at metrics to try and find riders who fit that mold.

He is SELLING a product. What that product is? Well that is your opinion.
Nah, I don't think he's selling his team as the "clean team" anymore, that's what I said in my last post. How can he? His rider(s) are turning up positive!

Tom Danielson ruined any chance of continuing the charade, they don't bother with that silly moniker anymore.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Re:

thehook said:
JV is SELLING a product. His Product is a "Clean" Team. ( His words not mine)

Cannondale, Garmin, Slipstream, Chipolte, Drapic. All want that product. If your a Sponsor and your signing with JV. That is what he is selling. So if you want wins? You go to another probably non-MPC team.

Now Johann Bruyneel. Made a good point on Twitter recently. JV likes to court other teams Sponsors. This is his 3rd merger. In a time of cash strapped cycling sponsorships. He goes where the money is. He also is smart enough to sell certain titles. "Clean Team"......now "Moneyball" approach.
Which in hindsight is what he has to do. Low wage-High upside riders. He is gambling and looking at metrics to try and find riders who fit that mold.

He is SELLING a product. What that product is? Well that is your opinion.
He has burnt through dozens of pro riders since 2008. They've lost so many big names and turned many reasonable riders into complete donkeys.

Or is it that unicorns who began as donkeys lose their wonder shine at Garmin/Cannondale-Drapac and become donkeys once more?

JV's people management has been very poor for seasons. Sure he gets money in the door, but he doesn't look after his riders - thats how it appears to an outsider. If he did, the team lineup wouldn't churn through so many riders.

Honestly, I have more respect for a team that dopes its riders and looks after them as people.

Oh, but we can claim 'the clean team label' but screw people over. Yeah...I'd rather the nice doper than the douchebag manager. But that's me!
 
Aug 12, 2009
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@ thehog.

Rolland's crash explains his loss of time on stage 9.

He grazed the wall on the descent. Granted I haven't heard of a slow puncture resulting in such action recently, but it makes some sense.

Sure it was not a face plant like Adam Yates had into the road, but it still hurts. A crash will cause him to drop some time. That's to be expected.
 
May 26, 2009
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JV your boys are taking one hell of a beating. Maybe Drapac have some decent training programs that will improve your riders for next year or maybe they can email them to you now and you can save the season, because whatever programs you're using aren't working.

Sent from my parents basement, natch!
 
Re: Re:

Galic Ho said:
He has burnt through dozens of pro riders since 2008. They've lost so many big names and turned many reasonable riders into complete donkeys.

Or is it that unicorns who began as donkeys lose their wonder shine at Garmin/Cannondale-Drapac and become donkeys once more?
Since 2011, they have won the Giro, Paris-Roubaix, Liege-Bastogne-Liege and Lombardy. That is, they won a Monument or GT every year for four seasons in a row. They have by any reasonable standard over-performed their status as a lower budget World Tour team which has almost never had an actual "star" of the sport on their roster. This has really only changed in the last season and half, but you would expect some off years from a model that relies on getting occasional big wins out of underrated (and therefore not high wage) leaders. Bet on the wrong "hidden gem" or even bet on the right "hidden gem" but have him have a bad year and all of a sudden you don't look as clever, but it's basically the same game plan.

Lots of riders have gone there and failed to prosper. Lots of riders go to every team and fail to prosper.
 
May 26, 2009
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Hey JV, was Rolland's attack today from the 1975 training program or a modern one?

Sent from my parents basement, natch!
 
May 26, 2009
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Re: Re:

thehog said:
BYOP88 said:
Hey JV, was Rolland's attack today from the 1975 training program or a modern one?

Sent from my parents basement, natch!
Where did Rolland finish today?
27 Pierre Rolland (Fra) Cannondale-Drapac 0:07:24

Must have got caught up in the moto crash.
 
Re: Re:

BYOP88 said:
thehog said:
BYOP88 said:
Hey JV, was Rolland's attack today from the 1975 training program or a modern one?

Sent from my parents basement, natch!
Where did Rolland finish today?
27 Pierre Rolland (Fra) Cannondale-Drapac 0:07:24

Must have got caught up in the moto crash.

Not Sky.. No time bonus.

Based on the CIRC report, it seems like the UCI has more insight and input on teams than is widely understood.

Why JV is the clean up guy comes down to he talks a game that works for the UCI. Someone has to be clean-ish so the sport can be clean-ish.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Re: Re:

Zinoviev Letter said:
Galic Ho said:
He has burnt through dozens of pro riders since 2008. They've lost so many big names and turned many reasonable riders into complete donkeys.

Or is it that unicorns who began as donkeys lose their wonder shine at Garmin/Cannondale-Drapac and become donkeys once more?
Since 2011, they have won the Giro, Paris-Roubaix, Liege-Bastogne-Liege and Lombardy. That is, they won a Monument or GT every year for four seasons in a row. They have by any reasonable standard over-performed their status as a lower budget World Tour team which has almost never had an actual "star" of the sport on their roster. This has really only changed in the last season and half, but you would expect some off years from a model that relies on getting occasional big wins out of underrated (and therefore not high wage) leaders. Bet on the wrong "hidden gem" or even bet on the right "hidden gem" but have him have a bad year and all of a sudden you don't look as clever, but it's basically the same game plan.

Lots of riders have gone there and failed to prosper. Lots of riders go to every team and fail to prosper.
Exactly. Which makes analysing the team hard. In the 2011 Tour they were on fire.

Now they're barely noticed.

I would say a comparable team is Orica, who have somehow managed to maintain their capacity for a strong team time trial.

The Giro has proven a good stomping ground for Hesjedal who exploited very intelligently, the weaknesses of his rivals, particularly Purito.

Garmin/Cannondale have had some bad luck. The 2014 Giro and Dan Martin falling off in Ireland on the first stage and out of the race left them with a blank result for the race; he was their go to guy. Maybe not, as Dan has recently said the leader wasn't always who you thought it was...but using him as an example, their go to guy for classic results who could and still can make a hilly classic podium if he tries, is his racing form this year not quite above where it was the past 3 years?

I'd say so. That's why I think some poor human resource management is going down. JV seems to disrespect his riders far too often. Just a pattern I have noticed in his words, when I run into his press comments and what riders say when not hired...bad habits from the Postal days probably...which is sad if true.
 
Re: Re:

thehog said:
BYOP88 said:
thehog said:
BYOP88 said:
Hey JV, was Rolland's attack today from the 1975 training program or a modern one?

Sent from my parents basement, natch!
Where did Rolland finish today?
27 Pierre Rolland (Fra) Cannondale-Drapac 0:07:24

Must have got caught up in the moto crash.
Another sterling day for Rolland with his up to the century training techniques :rolleyes:
I knew since the first time I heard JV talking about Rolland´s training techniques that it would come back biting him in the arse.
I wished I was wrong
but I was right
 
May 26, 2009
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Re: Re:

pastronef said:
thehog said:
BYOP88 said:
thehog said:
BYOP88 said:
Hey JV, was Rolland's attack today from the 1975 training program or a modern one?

Sent from my parents basement, natch!
Where did Rolland finish today?
27 Pierre Rolland (Fra) Cannondale-Drapac 0:07:24

Must have got caught up in the moto crash.
Another sterling day for Rolland with his up to the century training techniques :rolleyes:
I knew since the first time I heard JV talking about Rolland´s training techniques that it would come back biting him in the ****.
I wished I was wrong
but I was right
Congratulations you win the star prize!!!

;)

But you shouldn't lose any sleep over it, Vaughters won't, so no need for you.
 
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/07/tour-de-france/tour-notebook-reading-olegs-mind-lemonds-sky-doubts_415091#4KoIuS9WeLPDV4gM.99

Cannondale – Drapac last in prize money race

So far, the Tour de France has dished out 645,750 euros ($715,200) in prize money through wins and placings through the first two weeks of racing. Leading the tally is Tinkoff, with 87,850 euros ($97,298). Dimension Data and Etixx – Quick-Step are second and third, with 76,990 euros and 57,790 euros, respectively. Sky is sixth, with 39,010 euros (a number that will rise dramatically if Chris Froome wins yellow in Paris). In last place? Cannondale—Drapac, which has earned only one top-10 finishes so far, with 5,720 euros ($6,335).
Should pay for a few cases of wine for JVs private collection? :cool:
 
May 26, 2010
28,144
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thehog said:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/07/tour-de-france/tour-notebook-reading-olegs-mind-lemonds-sky-doubts_415091#4KoIuS9WeLPDV4gM.99

Cannondale – Drapac last in prize money race

So far, the Tour de France has dished out 645,750 euros ($715,200) in prize money through wins and placings through the first two weeks of racing. Leading the tally is Tinkoff, with 87,850 euros ($97,298). Dimension Data and Etixx – Quick-Step are second and third, with 76,990 euros and 57,790 euros, respectively. Sky is sixth, with 39,010 euros (a number that will rise dramatically if Chris Froome wins yellow in Paris). In last place? Cannondale—Drapac, which has earned only one top-10 finishes so far, with 5,720 euros ($6,335).
Should pay for a few cases of wine for JVs private collection? :cool:
That MBA really made things take on a downward curve for TeamVaughters.
 
May 30, 2015
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Benotti69 said:
thehog said:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/07/tour-de-france/tour-notebook-reading-olegs-mind-lemonds-sky-doubts_415091#4KoIuS9WeLPDV4gM.99

Cannondale – Drapac last in prize money race

So far, the Tour de France has dished out 645,750 euros ($715,200) in prize money through wins and placings through the first two weeks of racing. Leading the tally is Tinkoff, with 87,850 euros ($97,298). Dimension Data and Etixx – Quick-Step are second and third, with 76,990 euros and 57,790 euros, respectively. Sky is sixth, with 39,010 euros (a number that will rise dramatically if Chris Froome wins yellow in Paris). In last place? Cannondale—Drapac, which has earned only one top-10 finishes so far, with 5,720 euros ($6,335).
Should pay for a few cases of wine for JVs private collection? :cool:
That MBA really made things take on a downward curve for TeamVaughters.
It was a weird roster to bring to this tour. They brought a lot of guys to protect Rolland in the flat stages but that clearly backfired. This is going to make four grand tours in a row without a stage win for the team. That's pretty bad even for a low budget WT team. On the bright side, they're probably not going to have a lot of people accusing them of doping.
 
NECyclist88 said:
Benotti69 said:
thehog said:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/07/tour-de-france/tour-notebook-reading-olegs-mind-lemonds-sky-doubts_415091#4KoIuS9WeLPDV4gM.99

Cannondale – Drapac last in prize money race

So far, the Tour de France has dished out 645,750 euros ($715,200) in prize money through wins and placings through the first two weeks of racing. Leading the tally is Tinkoff, with 87,850 euros ($97,298). Dimension Data and Etixx – Quick-Step are second and third, with 76,990 euros and 57,790 euros, respectively. Sky is sixth, with 39,010 euros (a number that will rise dramatically if Chris Froome wins yellow in Paris). In last place? Cannondale—Drapac, which has earned only one top-10 finishes so far, with 5,720 euros ($6,335).
Should pay for a few cases of wine for JVs private collection? :cool:
That MBA really made things take on a downward curve for TeamVaughters.
It was a weird roster to bring to this tour. They brought a lot of guys to protect Rolland in the flat stages but that clearly backfired. This is going to make four grand tours in a row without a stage win for the team. That's pretty bad even for a low budget WT team. On the bright side, they're probably not going to have a lot of people accusing them of doping.
Rolland did well on the flat stages, lost little time which I believe was their first objective. Then he just went on mute, never saw much if him again. To be fair he was also a victim of the Sky suffocating tempo, so attacking was out of the question but he couldn't even hold to the back of the group.
 
NECyclist88 said:
Benotti69 said:
thehog said:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/07/tour-de-france/tour-notebook-reading-olegs-mind-lemonds-sky-doubts_415091#4KoIuS9WeLPDV4gM.99

Cannondale – Drapac last in prize money race

So far, the Tour de France has dished out 645,750 euros ($715,200) in prize money through wins and placings through the first two weeks of racing. Leading the tally is Tinkoff, with 87,850 euros ($97,298). Dimension Data and Etixx – Quick-Step are second and third, with 76,990 euros and 57,790 euros, respectively. Sky is sixth, with 39,010 euros (a number that will rise dramatically if Chris Froome wins yellow in Paris). In last place? Cannondale—Drapac, which has earned only one top-10 finishes so far, with 5,720 euros ($6,335).
Should pay for a few cases of wine for JVs private collection? :cool:
That MBA really made things take on a downward curve for TeamVaughters.
It was a weird roster to bring to this tour. They brought a lot of guys to protect Rolland in the flat stages but that clearly backfired. This is going to make four grand tours in a row without a stage win for the team. That's pretty bad even for a low budget WT team. On the bright side, they're probably not going to have a lot of people accusing them of doping.
no, they got a win in 2014 with Navardauskas. I enjoyed that very much
 

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