Car Doping: what to do?

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Couldn't the commisaires just make it a requirement that they can view the power data of any rider after the race? Perhaps even check every winner, or every rider to finish in the top three, or anytime there is suspicion or an accusation. It would be pretty obvious if they have obtained a significant advantage, and riders would soon stop doing it if they knew that they would almost certainly be punished retrospectively.

You'll need GPS data as well and you'll need to know if they were drafting/taking a bottle etc. If drafting you'll need to know if the had no other choice as in some situations the riders get stuck in the cars and have to just sit there. Then you might find teams stop using power meters or stop recording the data ("my Garmin turned itself off! Had to wait until after the climb to restart it") and so on.

His speed and cadence data is up on Strava and nothing looks odd, with no actual evidence it's hard to take the accusations seriously. Some of the comments on there are disgraceful.

Sure, it wouldn't be foolproof, but it would certainly highlight any blatant cheating. If a rider accelerates rapidly on an uphill section with no increase in power it would be a pretty obvious red flag. Taking a sticky bottle on the flat isn't so important anyway, unless they do a Nibali - which again would show up pretty clearly on a power file.

If the availability of the power file was part of the conditions to enter the race, then switching it off could result in disciplinary action.

It would be difficult to enforce any sanctions in marginal cases, but would still be a deterrant against blatant cheating, which there doesn't seem to be at the moment.

Do all teams and all riders use power meters? I'm expecting so in the WT but maybe not further down the ranks. Does that mean they are exempt? How do you tell the difference between a purposeful switching off or the unit shutting down? Are riders going to have victories taken away because their Garmin/SRM etc. fails? what about spikes and drops? I don't use a power meter so I have no idea how long these last but I do know they are prevalent.

Why is taking a bottle on the flat less important? Does that mean if this had been a flat sprint stage and a rider had done what Demare was accused of it would be fine? I don't see why it's any different.


I'm not against the idea, but the usual use of sticky bottles in the way Demare is accused of is to rejoin the back of the main bunch when you drop off for some unforeseen reason (mechanical, crash, bidon delivery etc.) which is why it isn't really policed. If someone does it where it is likely to affect the result you'd think a camera would mostly likely catch it. I'm just not sure the extra scrutiny would bare fruit and the UCI commissaires struggle enough already to enforce all the rules fairly, this just seems massively open to interpretation.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

Car doping. Riders hang on to cars sometimes. Always been that way. If they get caught, they get relegated. If they don't get caught, they get away with it. Nothing has changed.

There are more serious issues in the sport to worry about.

Agreed, though it's funny to recall that some Sky/BC members are on the record explaining how they wouldn't hang onto cars because they thought it was unethical. I should search the link, but there is one Sky rider who suggested that hanging onto cars was a typical Italian trait.

Also, wasn't Nibbles thrown out of the Giro for a similar offense? (and not even going uphill, but on the flat)

ask Farrar about Cav at the Giro. he was dropped from the autobus/gruppetto which would normally spell a DQ, then miraculously a HighRoad tow made him to finish the stage to within the cut

We never had these on the Isle of Man!

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Couldn't the commisaires just make it a requirement that they can view the power data of any rider after the race? Perhaps even check every winner, or every rider to finish in the top three, or anytime there is suspicion or an accusation. It would be pretty obvious if they have obtained a significant advantage, and riders would soon stop doing it if they knew that they would almost certainly be punished retrospectively.

You'll need GPS data as well and you'll need to know if they were drafting/taking a bottle etc. If drafting you'll need to know if the had no other choice as in some situations the riders get stuck in the cars and have to just sit there. Then you might find teams stop using power meters or stop recording the data ("my Garmin turned itself off! Had to wait until after the climb to restart it") and so on.

His speed and cadence data is up on Strava and nothing looks odd, with no actual evidence it's hard to take the accusations seriously. Some of the comments on there are disgraceful.

Sure, it wouldn't be foolproof, but it would certainly highlight any blatant cheating. If a rider accelerates rapidly on an uphill section with no increase in power it would be a pretty obvious red flag. Taking a sticky bottle on the flat isn't so important anyway, unless they do a Nibali - which again would show up pretty clearly on a power file.

If the availability of the power file was part of the conditions to enter the race, then switching it off could result in disciplinary action.

It would be difficult to enforce any sanctions in marginal cases, but would still be a deterrant against blatant cheating, which there doesn't seem to be at the moment.

Do all teams and all riders use power meters? I'm expecting so in the WT but maybe not further down the ranks. Does that mean they are exempt? How do you tell the difference between a purposeful switching off or the unit shutting down? Are riders going to have victories taken away because their Garmin/SRM etc. fails? what about spikes and drops? I don't use a power meter so I have no idea how long these last but I do know they are prevalent.

Why is taking a bottle on the flat less important? Does that mean if this had been a flat sprint stage and a rider had done what Demare was accused of it would be fine? I don't see why it's any different.


I'm not against the idea, but the usual use of sticky bottles in the way Demare is accused of is to rejoin the back of the main bunch when you drop off for some unforeseen reason (mechanical, crash, bidon delivery etc.) which is why it isn't really policed. If someone does it where it is likely to affect the result you'd think a camera would mostly likely catch it. I'm just not sure the extra scrutiny would bare fruit and the UCI commissaires struggle enough already to enforce all the rules fairly, this just seems massively open to interpretation.

It would be a deterrent more than a catch-all solution. If riders know there is the possibility of being caught and DQ'd they may well think twice about hanging onto a car - particularly on a climb where it would be really obvious.

It would be pretty clear on a power file if there is a significant acceleration on a non downhill section, with no corresponding increase in power. Even more so on a climb.

I think it matters more on a climb because that is generally where races are won and lost. If you get caught behind a crash on the flat, you are basically just taking a sticky bottle to get a short boost to get back to where you would have been. You are not saving any energy that you wouldn't have saved by being in the peloton the whole time.

On a climb its different because by hanging onto a car, you would actually be using less power than the peloton would be to tackle the climb, so you're gaining an advantage beyond just getting back to your original position. This is also especially applicable to sprinters getting dropped on the climb (e.g. Bouhanni in the stage to Cordoba this year).

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Car doping. Riders hang on to cars sometimes. Always been that way. If they get caught, they get relegated. If they don't get caught, they get away with it. Nothing has changed.

There are more serious issues in the sport to worry about.

Agreed, though it's funny to recall that some Sky/BC members are on the record explaining how they wouldn't hang onto cars because they thought it was unethical. I should search the link, but there is one Sky rider who suggested that hanging onto cars was a typical Italian trait.

Also, wasn't Nibbles thrown out of the Giro for a similar offense? (and not even going uphill, but on the flat)

ask Farrar about Cav at the Giro. he was dropped from the autobus/gruppetto which would normally spell a DQ, then miraculously a HighRoad tow made him to finish the stage to within the cut

We never had these on the Isle of Man!

marionette does flying pigs

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Agreed, though it's funny to recall that some Sky/BC members are on the record explaining how they wouldn't hang onto cars because they thought it was unethical. I should search the link, but there is one Sky rider who suggested that hanging onto cars was a typical Italian trait.

Also, wasn't Nibbles thrown out of the Giro for a similar offense? (and not even going uphill, but on the flat)

Hanging onto motorbikes, like Chris Froome did in the 2010 Giro, however, is not unethical... you set 'em up, I'll knock 'em down.

Anyway, just go the Russian dashcam way, each car has a camera mounted above the rear windows, if the commissaires have any suspicion of a particular team or individual, they simply view the footage. GoPro style.

 

[blackcat]

Mcgee circa 2005 Giro when he rode high on GC, think he was about 9th? May have been outside top 10, 11th? Got a fine and 30seconds penalty? He denied it strenuously. If he was British, I may be inclined to believe, but he is a brethren from Stuey mate.

 

[pmcg76]

Whatever happened on Saturday seems unlikely to be proved, and therefore cannot be acted upon, but once again the sport finds itself in need of proving its willingness to be clean. As with the bike doping scandals, the unproven cases must lead to intervention to prove others, and thus discourage further incidents.
...

you don't cheat on monday but not on tuesday.

Paul Kimmage says hello

 

[slowspoke]

https://youtu.be/bv_g4BJregQ?t=30