Cavendish stronger on the road than in testing says Axel Merckx...

[shouldawouldacoulda]

To the other points I alluded to in my previous post...

I read a very interesting article in the July 2009 issue of Cycle Sport America by Chris Sidwells entitled The Science of Cav.
http://www.worldcycling.com/CYCLE-SPORT-JULY-2009/productinfo/CS%2DJUL09/
I’ve searched in vain to find a reprint online; maybe someone else can dig it up. Nonetheless, it’s a great article with some fascinating insights.

Here's a link I was able to find to another great article that offers a look inside the mind of Cavendish.
http://www.cyclesportmag.com/features/mark-cavendish-interview/

@Granville57 I read that magazine article too. Great references to bring to this conversation. Thanks for that.

I don't have the issue anymore. But I remember (maybe wrongly?) in it Ellingworth said some of Cavendish's scores were too low to keep him the BCF program. But Ellingworth went out on a limb because he saw potential with these other qualities he saw in Cavendish?

But this is great stuff. Cav obviously tested well in some categories but was low in the ones we sometimes think are 'the only ones that matter' -> endurance, aerobic capacity etc.

I really like the Gretzky comparison as well. Very interesting stuff on Gretzky. I never knew that. I'm not a big hockey fan, but given who Gretzky is to that sport I'm surprised he tested so poorly! I'd have thought the exact opposite.

 

[shouldawouldacoulda]

Please tell me you're taking the micky!

While we only see Cavendish, or any other sprinter for that matter, in the final kilometre or three of a race he still has to ride the same distance as everyone else. 300km in the bunch is still a big ask of anyone, to produce a race winning sprint at the end of it is amazing. The stage to Bordeaux was 198km of pancake flat terrain, so on the face of it easy peasy. But it was after 174km in the Pyrenees with 2 Cat 1 climbs as well as the HC finish on the Tourmalet. Sure Cav & the other sprinters in the Autobus finished over 30 minutes down, but they still averaged 32kmh compared to Andy Schleck's 34kmh. Not really that cosseted IMO.

Thanks for this post. I definitely feel sprinters sometimes get undervalued. People seem to think it is easy to ride around in the bunch. But as you point out it certainly isn't.

Even reasonably flat races can be hard. Deceptively hard

 

[D-Queued]

You know Kirk Obee. So did I. But I never trusted him to be clean. Nor did anyone in North America - that I know anyway.

Yup. Not alone, though.

Dave.

 

[frenchfry]

I really like the Gretzky comparison as well. Very interesting stuff on Gretzky. I never knew that. I'm not a big hockey fan, but given who Gretzky is to that sport I'm surprised he tested so poorly! I'd have thought the exact opposite.

When Gretzky arrived in Edmonton at 17 his new teammates didn't know what to think of this skinny runt. At the first practice he set up 10 pucks on the blueline and proceded to bank 9 out of 10 off the post and into the net. Instant respect, and that was only a glimpse of his immense talent.

Incredibly, his greatest skill was transforming his teammates into superstars.

 

[andy1234]

all a sprinter needs is some hefty muscle to do the last bits, so he could have done very bad in testing and still be a really good finisher. Come on he doesnt really need top racer stamina... he just sits around in the peloton dropping back at the mountains... his racing wins are more like: sitting in the peloton and waiting for a sprint, and dont forget the team doing all the leadout for him... hes pretty spoiled

Have you ever ridden a bike?
Thought not....

 

[Granville57]

I read a very interesting article in the July 2009 issue of Cycle Sport America by Chris Sidwells entitled The Science of Cav.
http://www.worldcycling.com/CYCLE-SPORT-JULY-2009/productinfo/CS%2DJUL09/

@Granville57 I read that magazine article too. Great references to bring to this conversation. Thanks for that.

I don't have the issue anymore. But I remember (maybe wrongly?) in it Ellingworth said some of Cavendish's scores were too low to keep him the BCF program. But Ellingworth went out on a limb because he saw potential with these other qualities he saw in Cavendish?

I’m glad you liked the references. It makes the time I took to transcribe the quotes worthwhile. Here is the point in the article that I believe you are referring to. I meant to include this originally, as it applies most specifically to this thread, but I was bleared-eyed at 5:00am and inadvertently left it out! Here’s the proper quote in its entirety.

Cutting the drag
“Mark’s frontal area is tiny when compared to the likes of Boonen or Petacchi. That means he creates less drag, so where Cav is producing 1,400 to 1,500 watts to go 75kph, Boonen needs 1,700 watts and still goes slightly slower.

“His low frontal area was why watts misled T-Mobile when Mark first joined the team. They put their faith in Greipel or Ciolek because they were putting out 1,600 or 1,700 watts, and at the time Cav was only doing 1,200. But when they started racing Cav was faster because the other two are so much bigger. Now Cav’s maximum power output is 1,680 watts, but the key to his speed is the watts he puts out per square meter of his frontal area.”

While I’m at it (and it’s still early!) I’ll include a couple of other relevant ones.

First Impressions
Referring to the time when Cavendish applied to the British Cycling U-23 Academy, run by Rod Ellingworth in Tuscany, he said, “I asked all the applicants to describe their journey to Manchester. I do that to see how aware they are of their surroundings, which I think is very important. Mark described exactly how he got there, what the road numbers were, the places he went through and at what time. The detail was unusual. The question is designed to test how aware the applicants are, which I think is a measure of how self-sufficient they will be. But Mark’s awareness is something more, something deeper.”

Sprint Technique
“He doesn’t hold his arms rigidly and locked out so that all his leg power goes into the pedals, like track sprinters do. Locking out makes them faster but it makes them unstable if they get a knock. In fact if Cav is up against a stiff, straight-armed sprinter I always get him to give them a bit of a hook because they can’t handle it. They can’t handle the contact.

“The other technique we worked on was grabbing the bars and really pumping them all the way to the line. That sounds a bit stupid, a bit obvious perhaps, but when I ask riders to try and remember the last time they grabbed the bars, headed for the line and held it, going really hard all the way there, they begin to understand what I’m talking about.

“Most racers never do that, but track sprinters do it all the time. Mark does it every time he sprints, gets it all out it in 200 meters. Only real sprinters can do it.”

More on Cav’s sprinting:
“His acceleration is phenomenal, nobody can jump form 60 to 75kph quicker. It’s something we worked on, something I coached. What Cav does is jump, recover then jump again. He goes 100 per cent, backs off to 80 then goes back to 100. Tactically it’s great because his rivals respond to the first jump, but while they are flat out to close on him Cav is recovering slightly. At the same time they think they are catching him but then he goes away again, and that does their heads in.”

I also love this quote from the linked interview.
http://www.cyclesportmag.com/features/mark-cavendish-interview/

Very revealing.

“A sprint takes so much energy from you. I couldn’t walk properly for two days after Milan-San Remo.”

 

[euanli]

That description of his acceleration is interesting, I always thought he had two kicks in his sprint.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Unfortunatly pro cycling is so tainted its kinda naturual that we suspect any winner but with no evidence to the contray its ony fair we assume Cavendish to be clean.
His power/ frontal area figures and ability to ride relaxed at high speed in the peloton are, combined, a great package for preservation of energy and delaying lactic build up and I believe go a long way to explain his ability.
Add that together with his psychology, which while not fully interpritable via whats in print would apear to fit pretty closely to what we might expect from his family history in providing the drives.
Theres been a lot of "hurt" in Cavendish and that the "edge" that has driven him. I suspect he understands that these days..his self awareness is developing.
I see some simialarities to Graham Obree but unlike Obree a much more street wise guy.
Obvious all the above could be a load of Plumbs but thats my best guess.

 

[D-Queued]

Not sure why, but thought this might belong in this thread:

The performance-enhancing effect of hGH -- is limited to sprinting and almost doubles in men when combined with testosterone ... This improvement could turn the last-place finisher in the Olympic finals into a gold medal winner

aka - how to turn a mule with low scores into a race horse?

Dave.

 

[veganrob]

Not sure why, but thought this might belong in this thread:

The performance-enhancing effect of hGH -- is limited to sprinting and almost doubles in men when combined with testosterone ... This improvement could turn the last-place finisher in the Olympic finals into a gold medal winner

aka - how to turn a mule with low scores into a race horse?

Dave.

That could explain why Lance did no races after TdF. The pain and swelling associated with the cessation of hgH afterward would make it difficult to do more races.

 

[Granville57]

Not sure why, but thought this might belong in this thread:

The performance-enhancing effect of hGH -- is limited to sprinting and almost doubles in men when combined with testosterone ... This improvement could turn the last-place finisher in the Olympic finals into a gold medal winner

aka - how to turn a mule with low scores into a race horse?

Dave.

Hmmm. Of course they're talking about runners, so there are some different issues there, but this jumped out at me:

More than 100 recreational athletes ages 18 to 40 were recruited in the Garvan study. Participants were randomly selected to receive a daily shot of recombinant hGH. A subset of the 68 men enrolled in the study also received a weekly testosterone injection.

Who does that? You couldn't pay me enough to participate in a study like that! Given the test subjects and the parameters, I never really give these types of "studies" all that much credibility in terms of real-world results for pro athletes, but it is interesting.

The article was a bit lacking though. I read it three times and still don't see just what they are claiming caused the "benefits."

Growth hormone didn’t improve recipients’ strength, power or endurance, nor increase muscle mass, the researchers found.

Did I miss something then? They say, "Athletes [runners] taking human growth hormone, or hGH, improved sprint capacity by 4 percent to 5 percent." but don't offer any explanation as to why.

I have also have to wonder if dropping Usain Bolt's name in there was intended as a subliminal plant or not. It seems irresponsible unless they're suggesting something outright.

That could explain why Lance did no races after TdF. The pain and swelling associated with the cessation of hgH afterward would make it difficult to do more races.

It is curious.

 

[D-Queued]

...this jumped out at me:


Who does that? You couldn't pay me enough to participate in a study like that! Given the test subjects and the parameters, I never really give these types of "studies" all that much credibility in terms of real-world results for pro athletes, but it is interesting.

...

Classic study likely run with University student volunteers looking to make a few bucks to pay for coffee.

Want to make a few bucks? Sign up for a University Medical study.

Dave.

 

[Granville57]

Want to make a few bucks? Sign up for a University Medical study.

Dave.

No thanks
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4808836.stm

 

[blackcat]

When Gretzky arrived in Edmonton at 17 his new teammates didn't know what to think of this skinny runt. At the first practice he set up 10 pucks on the blueline and proceded to bank 9 out of 10 off the post and into the net. Instant respect, and that was only a glimpse of his immense talent.

Incredibly, his greatest skill was transforming his teammates into superstars.

semenko, dave

fantastic hockey hair.

hockey hair HOF

 

[blackcat]

That could explain why Lance did no races after TdF. The pain and swelling associated with the cessation of hgH afterward would make it difficult to do more races.

lance stopped taking hgh as a PED after his oncologists warned him off it.

on his return (iteration mkI 1997), this was the only doping product NOT in his suite

 

[blackcat]

That description of his acceleration is interesting, I always thought he had two kicks in his sprint.

imo, best ever sprinter by a mile.

that san remo win where he ran down heinrich haussler is one for the ages.

heiko salzwedal also echoes ellingworths view on MC. Heiko knew a champion when he saw him in a jnr crit in britain i believe goes the anecdote.

i remember a dreidaagse van de panne win in his second season, where he was left by his own in the last km, and snaked thru a decimated field of a dozen or so sprinters, through the chicane, think he beat chicci who was undergeared. i knew cav never needed the leadout train. he is equivalent to mcewen wrt his ability to find his own way, and this is a miconception about him needing a train. c San Remo for starters.

his jump would be about second best i have seen to mcewen. it is materially slower to mcewen, by faster than everyone else on acceleration. but he is miles ahead of anyone, bar perhaps Cipo on terminal velocity. and cos his drag coefficient, he can hold his speed for 300metres, longer than anyone even than Cipo. Reason why Cav is the best, cos he simply IS the best circular circular logic

being the best cyclist, also means being doped. but this should NOT detract from his ability and accomplishments. he competes within those norms.

phenomenal rider. phenomenal competitor (but lets be honest, like the best, he has equivalent medical support)

he is a champion.

 

[blackcat]

Unfortunatly pro cycling is so tainted its kinda naturual that we suspect any winner but with no evidence to the contray its ony fair we assume Cavendish to be clean.

WRONG Darryl. Cav is a champion. and the best ever. this will not be, and can never be contested.

doping is not a moral issue, ergo, there is no defamation of character.

the best ever cyclists, the ones in that CQ score, all that top 50, they did what cyclists do. it is no choice re:ethics. it is not a criticism of an individuals character.

so this line is absurd, about the assumption. ltes not all be fools with head in the sands, lets just enjoy the on bike exploits of the best ever sprinter who will never be deposed for that title. he is a champ. nuff said.

 

[blackcat]

I see some simialarities to Graham Obree but unlike Obree a much more street wise guy.

obree WAS a rider who did not take medical assitance tho

Obvious all the above could be a load of Plumbs but thats my best guess.

it actually a good honest post, nothing wrong with that. speaking the truth as you can interpret is, is ONLY a good thing

 

[blackcat]

To the other points I alluded to in my previous post...

I read a very interesting article in the July 2009 issue of Cycle Sport America by Chris Sidwells entitled The Science of Cav.
http://www.worldcycling.com/CYCLE-SPORT-JULY-2009/productinfo/CS%2DJUL09/
I’ve searched in vain to find a reprint online; maybe someone else can dig it up. Nonetheless, it’s a great article with some fascinating insights. Sidwells interviewed Cav’s first coach and mentor, Rod Ellingworth. I’ve included some of what I felt were the key points. Unless someone can find a link, you’ll just have to trust me on the quotes. I took great care to be accurate.


First Impressions
“There are a lot of reasons why Mark is special, some of them are down to the facts, figures and natural ability, and some of them are down to who Mark is.”

When Cav was 17 he took part in an intensive training session, put on by British Cycling, with other Junior and U23 riders. As told by Elllingworth,
"I deliberately tried to make it difficult, I tried to take away the protective coaching they were used to and to put them into situations where they were stressed. After it was all over Mark was the only one who came up to me and thanked me for the day. That took me by surprise."

Heightened Awareness
“His judgement of speed and distance is near uncanny. When we would talk about a sprint, Mark would say things like, ‘I moved one meter this way or half a meter that.’ Or he’d say something happened 75 meters from the line. And when you played back the video, it was what Mark had said, exactly.”

“Mark says that for him a sprint happens in slow motion. It’s like he can slow down what’s happening around him and run it inside his brain at half speed. It gives him the time to make good decisions.”

Cutting the drag
“Mark’s frontal area is tiny when compared to the likes of Boonen or Petacchi. That means he creates less drag, so where Cav is producing 1,400 to 1,500 watts to go 75kph, Boonen needs 1,700 watts and still goes slightly slower. The key to his speed is the watts he puts out per square meter of his frontal area.”

Natural speed
The article also goes into great detail about his positioning on the bike, with diagrams comparing him to other sprinters and pointing out the advantages he has. Another sidebar offers these stats on his power:

"Five-second peak power is a measure that coaches use to establish sprint potential. Cavendish’s current peak power [as of 2009] is 1,680 watts, which divided by his weight, 69kg, gives 24.35 watts per kilogram of peak power. That’s off the charts of the peak power tables that coaches use, and it’s the reason for Cavendish’s lightning acceleration."

Using the track
In this sidebar, Cav’s coach spoke of the benefit of motor-pacing on the track at high speeds, for extended periods, to acclimate himself to that environment.
“Because of all the track work he’s done he’s dead comfortable at 50kph, it isn’t a problem because he’s used to periods at 55kph. Just sitting in the peloton takes very little out of Mark.”

Here's a link I was able to find to another great article that offers a look inside the mind of Cavendish.
http://www.cyclesportmag.com/features/mark-cavendish-interview/

thanks for this post

 

[Zweistein]

His power/ frontal area figures and ability to ride relaxed at high speed in the peloton are, combined, a great package for preservation of energy and delaying lactic build up and I believe go a long way to explain his ability.

Air resistance is a cubic function and is roughly linear to cross sectional area. In comparison to his competition, if his cross sectional area is 20% less, he will be able to go 6.2% faster at the same power output. At 40 mph, you only get marginal gains by putting out more power rather than just reducing your cross sectional area.

 

[Franklin]

“Mark says that for him a sprint happens in slow motion. It’s like he can slow down what’s happening around him and run it inside his brain at half speed. It gives him the time to make good decisions.”

I'm very curious about this, as I experience exactly the same thing in a mass sprint. And the thing is that I'm pretty much a mediocre sprinter at the lower categories (had some nice results in uphill finishes).

I always thought this was because relative to each other we move at the same speeds. This suggests it's more than that.

Any other sprinters who can comment on this? Is this a common feeling or is it indeed something special?

 

[blackcat]

I'm very curious about this, as I experience exactly the same thing in a mass sprint. And the thing is that I'm pretty much a mediocre sprinter at the lower categories (had some nice results in uphill finishes).

I always thought this was because relative to each other we move at the same speeds. This suggests it's more than that.

Any other sprinters who can comment on this? Is this a common feeling or is it indeed something special?

i dont know why, but the flat and the false flat and uphill drags are not the same. one would expect a lighter sprinter like freire to come into his own. but he does not.

cav is almost as good as a perfect flat. but surprisingly adept uphill/false flat, uphill drags, are steegmans, forster (in us domestic now), graeme brown(dont laugh). hushovd is solid, but not better than those second tier guys. imo, forster and steegmans come to the elite, close to cav, superior to freire, and now sagan is the best .

 

[Franklin]

i dont know why, but the flat and the false flat and uphill drags are not the same. one would expect a lighter sprinter like freire to come into his own. but he does not.

cav is almost as good as a perfect flat. but surprisingly adept uphill/false flat, uphill drags, are steegmans, forster (in us domestic now), graeme brown(dont laugh). hushovd is solid, but not better than those second tier guys. imo, forster and steegmans come to the elite, close to cav, superior to freire, and now sagan is the best .

Not that I disagree with what you say, but I'm not sure what that has to do with my question

 

[blackcat]

well, had a theory on graeme brown, and the torque required on an uphill being similar to a standing start on the track, and brown was the best starter in the teams pursuit. all other riders are significantly heavier, so their power/weight is not great, forster, steegmans, and brown, but their gross power is very high.

but... dont have the answer for you sorry.

 

[Granville57]

“Mark says that for him a sprint happens in slow motion. It’s like he can slow down what’s happening around him and run it inside his brain at half speed. It gives him the time to make good decisions.”

I'm very curious about this, as I experience exactly the same thing in a mass sprint. And the thing is that I'm pretty much a mediocre sprinter at the lower categories (had some nice results in uphill finishes).

I always thought this was because relative to each other we move at the same speeds. This suggests it's more than that.

Any other sprinters who can comment on this? Is this a common feeling or is it indeed something special?

I remember reading an interview with Kareem Abdul Jabbar where he talked about the same phenomenon. Wayne Gretzky too. In the more intense moments of competition, they were able to "slow things down." Kareem mentioned his working with Bruce Lee in the same interview, although I don't remember if he exactly attributed that ability to something he learned from The Dragon.