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Cavendish without Renhshaw & co

Oct 2, 2009
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I am reading a lot about how good a sprinter Cavendish is, but i am also wondering how good he would be without Mark Renshaw, George Hincapie & co. He has been unbeatable in that last 200m or so but you have to get there in good shape & with good positioning to actually take out that win.
Yes a good sprinter needs a good team & there are different types of sprinter, like say Robbie Mack; he got a lot of his wins without a team in the last few km,s.
I wonder how many wins Cav would get in the Tdf without Renshaw in particular. He has lost big George already, hmm.
 
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so how would he be without renshaw, or how would he be without an entire lead out train...?

Grabsch, Greipel, Hansen, Eisel, Rogers, the list of lead out guys goes on and on...

youve got to remember, behind cavendish, Greipel won four stages in the veulta, and 16 other wins, its not just cav benefiting and its not the same riders leading out all the time... columbia have 10 or 12 guys capable of leading out a sprinter, they are well drilled, well oiled.. renshaw is a part, but hes just a cog in a much bigger wheel..

i think hincapie was/is probably fairly easily replacable in that role..

would cav win if he was on another team, and tyler ferrar for instance was at columbia.. maybe, maybe not, but i wouldnt bet against him..

to answer your question, without renshaw, cav would have won five stages in the tour at least this year... then again, without cav, renshaw could well have won the stage into paris.. ;)
 
Jun 19, 2009
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I'm going to have to disagree.

Hincapie is the best. He added several wins to Cav's season; not least the final stage of the TdF.

Cav is definitely going to have a tougher time finding himself in the right place at the right time without him.

The rest are somewhat more fungible.
 
Well, you could ask the same question about Mario Cipollini. How good would he have been without his leadout train in Scirea, Lombardi, Fagnini etc...It's almost impossible to really say for sure because cycling will always be in large parts a team effort.
 
Jun 9, 2009
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Hincapie's attack to stretch out and snap the front end of the peleton on the Champs to set up Cav's victory was a truly masterful piece of riding.

But...

Cav is the fastest road sprinter in the world and Stapleton is a savvy team manager. They will not have difficulty establishing a line of strong men to lead out sprints for the coming season.

With the maturation of Farrar and the continued excellence from many other sprinters I think we will all be treated to some excellent racing next season.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Cav would be beatable if the train were not there. Take Renshaw for example. Hincapie set him up so well in Paris he had a good few metres on third place at the line. The HTC train has become so well drilled that no team gets near them. Cav gets nobody in his road and flies home easily. Farrar had no chance against that. The final 800m is where it can all go wrong and Renshaw nails it almost every time. The sprints have very few guys for him to avoid and maneuver round because Renshaw is so strong.

I loved watching Robbie pre-2008. Twenty guys all jousting in the final 800m. At 2km's out he was not seen, often at 1km he was nowhere. Then like the magician with the invisible cape (sorry for the Liggettism) he'd appear in the final 400m and weave around the guys blocking his path. Robbie has 12 wins from memory at the Tour. He'd have had twenty odd if he had the HTC train and nobody to get around like Cav. I lost count of the number of days he was blocked and couldn't get through or did but ran out of space. Cav is very fortunate HTC have mastered the sprint leadout and all he has to do is put the power down.

As for the best aussie rider this year. Renshaw gets my vote. He's a solid chunk of the reason Cav had his 6 wins at the Tour. Now to hope HTC let him have a stage, because he seems to have the goods against all but his team mate.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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people underestimate Cavendish' ability in the last 3 kms to find his own way.

Hincapie was impressive, but that did not mean if Cav was caught solo in a messy finish, he would not have pumped them in the finish. He is about 5 lengths quicker over the last 300 metres if he goes head to head with everyone if their nose is in the wind. Only a few guys like Ciolek at his fastest, and Chicchi can hold a candle, but they cannot sprint long. Actually, the biggest threat would be Greipel. I also think Haussler was on the top line of speed merchants, and faster than Hushovd by a fair way.

Think it was Driedaagse de Panne in 2007, Cavendish managed to get through a fair whack of traffic and win. In his first win in the pros at Schelde he basically did it himself coming from behind, yeah, B Eisel did sort of take him up the outside.

If you want an example Cav is about the most canny sprinter since Mcewen you need to look at the San Remo finale. It was too good. The best sprint win ever imo, and Mcewen has had some rippers, like stage 1 in 2007 in London.

When Hincapie aint at the Giro, Cav wins. Cav will win no matters

Martin could do that job, but Martin and Rogers will probably be their GC mens. Rogers is the forgotten man, he was tenth in 2006, and how quick people forget, guy has more GC class than Wiggins, is a better climber, and is a better tter, ofcourse, he was benefiting from Freiburg "oil change" but so was Wiggo somewhere this Tour.

Cav has enough help. Roulston was solid for Hushovd, no Hincapie, but solid. Renshaw is overrated, you get alot of Australian fanbois that don't have much clue. He was second, what, in a reducted 200km Hamburg last year to Mcewen. Won Tro Bro Leon, blah! He sucked in the points race in Athens, the track set-up did not want him after he rode a defensive race and was on his heels, and then whined about missing the madison. He has won only one decent race attacking with Tro Bro, and had one decent leadout for Hushovd.

Reminds me a little of Julian Dean. For one leadout for Hushovd at the Tour that puts him in position to sprint for the win, they forget about all the times he has screwed up. He fell on about 50% of bunch kicks between 2005 and 2007. You have to go and count em, in the GTs. I worked out, the guy hit the tarmac, on about half the occasions in the finale. OK, most times were when he pulled off, but do you really want your finale pilot to be a crash bandit, does it instill confidence? No way, dont need a crash test dummie.

Renshaw, Rolly, Goss, Greipel, Seiberg, Eisel, will do the job just fine. Goss will be better than Renshaw imo. Greipel potentially the best man in the group, and I think he would be better served to be put in the train about 3rd man from the end. I would like it to be Greipel to swing off to Renshaw to swing off to Goss. Cos Goss would be the best pilot if things got screwed in a messy finish, and Greipel has the strength of Hincapie to make sure Columbia are way out in front from 700 to go, and will not be swamped. There is no one who really replaces Hincapie for that kind of strength to determine victories from 1km to go. Ofcourse, only Cav can make it certain and finish it off from 1km to go if Columbia have the ascendancy.

Greipel is replacable as the final guy, and so is Renshaw. So even tho Renshaw had the last man leadout this year, I would switch over to Goss, and have Renshaw sit in, in the train.

Bob Stapleton vastly overrated. Got the arrogant American thing going for him too.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Just to clear it up. I was only saying Renshaw was good this year in the role he was designated and confidently performed. He played his part well. Others could replace him but I wonder how much the success relies on Cav having faith in a particular rider to get him there.

If the trust is present any of the guys Blackcat mentioned could do the job well.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Stapleton is the owner. How much input does an owner have, unless he is owner Director? I would have thought he mostly signs off on others decisions.

PS I hope Goss is used as more than just a man for lead outs, I see him as a very accomplished classics rider in the future. Only 23 years old.
 
While Hincapie did a great job, I'd have to disagree that he isn't replaceable.
Don't forget, that he came to this lead out lark, late in the game.

The lead out train is a collective, only as strong as it's weakest link.
Columbia had and IMO still has, no weak links.

After a re-shuffle, it will be business as usual.

Blackcat has painted next year's picture.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Renshaw was in the Giro and the Tour.

last year it was Greipel in the Giro and Ciolek at the Tour.

Hansen was promoted as Cav's best lieutenant, this year he disappears.

Dare say it does not matter. But I already considered the relationship factor, even though I was remiss in not mentioning it, so you make a valid point Gallic Ho.

This year Eisel took the spot as Cav's lieutenant. And Eisel is still very fast, but was inserted in the start of the train, or in the wind and chasing breaks, plus helping Cav thru the Queen stage and the mtns.
 
Cav would probably still be the best sprinter in the world without his amazing lead-out train, but he would definitely not be as dominant. As far as I remember, he was 16. in the 6. stage of tour de france and said it was due to the team not working well together at that particular stage, although Thor won with no help whatsoever.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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maltiv said:
Cav would probably still be the best sprinter in the world without his amazing lead-out train, but he would definitely not be as dominant. As far as I remember, he was 16. in the 6. stage of tour de france and said it was due to the team not working well together at that particular stage, although Thor won with no help whatsoever.

the stage was uphill. Cavendish did a phenomenal job to take points for green. You need to understand what his capacities are. He is not a sprinter for an uphill run in, yet. He may develop the ability.
 
blackcat said:
the stage was uphill. Cavendish did a phenomenal job to take points for green. You need to understand what his capacities are. He is not a sprinter for an uphill run in, yet. He may develop the ability.
I agree, but according to himself the sprint suited him well. He said something in the line of "Of course the finish suits me. Every mass sprint suits me" on the interview after the stage.

Another example of Cavendish without lead-out train is stage 3 of tour of missouri where he got 5. or so, but that was probably partly due to being ill I guess.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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maltiv said:
I agree, but according to himself the sprint suited him well. He said something in the line of "Of course the finish suits me. Every mass sprint suits me" on the interview after the stage.

Another example of Cavendish without lead-out train is stage 3 of tour of missouri where he got 5. or so, but that was probably partly due to being ill I guess.

did not he get boxed?

Even Mcewen could get boxed in. The weaker stage races Cavendish is more likely to get boxed, if he has no train, because it is more likely there is no selection in the finish and the bunch swamps the guys at the head and the peel never really works.

Ofcourse, a weak stage race can mean Cavendish can sprint for the win with only one sprinter on his wheel 5 lengths ahead of everyone with 200 to go.

Instead of winning 20 times a season, Cav would win 12. Mcewen won about 20 times in 2002 when Leon Van Bon stuck him on a wheel at 300 metres to go and then it was up to Mcewen.
 
Apr 29, 2009
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Interesting question. IMHO Cav would still be the dominant sprinter without the leadout but maybe not as dominant. In the 08 giro the what was then high road boys were nowhere near as good at leading him out but he still got the wins, altough bennati did beat him as well.
If Renshaw is so good (he is v good) why was Hushovd not winning all the sprints when they were together at CA?
Cav is the fastest over 200m period. He can kick away from others and pull 2 to 3 bike lengths clear, thats pretty conclusive. He also has a second kick which he very rarely even has to use. Farrar has emerged as nearest rival but his problem is Cav is younger!
 
I think I saw Mark Renshaw leading out for Thor Hushovd one single time while they were on the same team, and that stage Thor won. Except from that, I can't remember seeing him at all. He has definitely improved since then, I guess.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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Cav is awfully fast. If he is anywhere near the front without leadout, and on form, I don't see anyone out sprinting him.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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scribe said:
Cav is awfully fast. If he is anywhere near the front without leadout, and on form, I don't see anyone out sprinting him.

Chicchi is the only rider I think who can go with him. Greipel is good. I think in de Panne in 2007 Cav got Chicchi but he was undergeared. See in 2008 Paris Tours, Chicchi was the fastest in the finish by about 4 lengths, but came from too far back.

He is on BMC next year.

Petacchi has said he would beat him in training.

Chicchi was world champion in u23 and then slopped around QS I think for a few years.

Cav has said that Steven Burke can beat him down in Tuscany when they are at the Academy.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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lanternrouge said:
Really? Did not know that Burke had such a kick. Where did you see that?

lantern, pretty sure it was Rod Ellingworth somewhere. Did I say Cavendish said? I am not sure, it was either or, perhaps even both said it.
 
blackcat said:
lantern, pretty sure it was Rod Ellingworth somewhere. Did I say Cavendish said? I am not sure, it was either or, perhaps even both said it.

I found an article about this.

Steven had already made an effort or two when he made his mind up he was going to go all out for a 3K race effort. Race bike, wheels, even his GB overshoe covers were used. Prior to the effort, Steven, one of the quieter and unassuming riders in the team who had been beating no less a rider than Mark Cavendish in sprints after six hour training rides in Italy, prepared on his own on the rollers and when the time was available on the track for him to race, he went about it in that assuming manner of his.

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/web/site/BC/gbr/News2007/20070704_Pre_Euro_Training.asp
 
Mar 13, 2009
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lanternrouge said:
Thanks both interesting that. Cav better watch his back we have got Ben Swift coming on nicely as well.

Blythe is stepping up to Lotto, was on Davo and Konica Minolta, may be as fast as anyone,

then there are Bellis, Fenn, Christian, and perhaps the most talented rider of all the brits, Kennaugh. Certainly a golden era coming up.
 

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