Change In TDF Parcours – Just An Idea

[mulletCobra]

Whiners.. Just enjoy the race. The cyclist are what make it interesting.

 

[El Pistolero]

How is this route balanced?? It has only one ITT, and at the very end at that, and hilly. The mountains are all concentrated at the end, and all high mountain stages end in a cat 1 or HC climb except for the Aubisque one, which is short and has only that one climb, and far from the finish line.

Does it matter it's all at the end?

It has high mountains, medium mountains, punchy stages, sprinter stages, echelon stages, mountain stages that don't always end in a MTF(stages can be more interesting if there's a descend and some flat after it), etc

This year's Giro had 2 good hilly stages and all the rest were MTF, most of them were boring as well.

Yes, it could use one more TT, but the Giro didn't even have one serious TT. 25km... Wow...

Plus the first stage is not a boring TTT. There will actually be a fight for the jersey. Unlike Mark Cavendish sprinting for the jersey after a TTT. And I'm aware it was Pinotti that did that.

 

[Descender]

Does it matter it's all at the end?

It has high mountains, medium mountains, punchy stages, sprinter stages, echelon stages, mountain stages that don't always end in a MTF(stages can be more interesting if there's a descend and some flat after it), etc

This year's Giro had 2 good hilly stages and all the rest were MTF, most of them were boring as well.

Yes, it could use one more TT, but the Giro didn't even have one serious TT. 25km... Wow...

Plus the first stage is not a boring TTT. There will actually be a fight for the jersey. Unlike Mark Cavendish sprinting for the jersey after a TTT. And I'm aware it was Pinotti that did that.

Which stage of this year's Tour that doesn't end uphill is suited for a successful move by a GC rider? The Pinerolo one is nothing but a medium-mountain stage, and the Aubisque is too far from the finish at Lourdes.

And I didn't like this year's Giro, mind you. It's just this Tour is not better.

 

[Duartista]

Does it matter it's all at the end?

It has high mountains, medium mountains, punchy stages, sprinter stages, echelon stages, mountain stages that don't always end in a MTF(stages can be more interesting if there's a descend and some flat after it), etc

This year's Giro had 2 good hilly stages and all the rest were MTF, most of them were boring as well.

Yes, it could use one more TT, but the Giro didn't even have one serious TT. 25km... Wow...

Plus the first stage is not a boring TTT. There will actually be a fight for the jersey. Unlike Mark Cavendish sprinting for the jersey after a TTT. And I'm aware it was Pinotti that did that.

I agree that the Giro had a flawed route as well, although I only found the Montevergine stage boring (well, and the Aprica one actually). But at least the Giro had a couple of stages which really stood out. I don't think the Tour does.

 

[roundabout]

I'd like, nay love, to see the Tour climb the Col du Grand Colombier. I would like to think that the biggest problem is that it's somewhat in the middle of nowhere (instead of the Tour management simply being boring) for the climb to have a decisive role it deserves. Culoz is probably the biggest town in the vicinity and it's under 3000 inhabitants. Ok, Luchon is about the same size but I would guess that it's more popular with tourists and thus is more likely to afford a stage.

 

[Mambo95]

Plus, Angelo Zomegnan would have found some method, possibly using helicopters, ski lifts and maybe even a zipline, to ensure that they could climb to Puy de Dôme, even if it could only be an MTT.

When Zomegnan first took over the Giro (2004), he found a way to lay on 12 sprint stages especially for Petacchi (AP won 9 of them). There were loads of sprint stages the next year too.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

When Zomegnan first took over the Giro (2004), he found a way to lay on 12 sprint stages especially for Petacchi (AP won 9 of them). There were loads of sprint stages the next year too.

Yup, and he was roundly criticised for that 2004 route. And when he dished up the less brutal 2009 parcours, he got criticised for that too. It's no wonder he goes for the ballistic mountain approach, and his attitudes to Kronplatz and Crostis have been to grit teeth, and find some way to do it even if it shouldn't be possible (and yes, he's needed at least 2 attempts to get either to work).

Zomegnan always seems to be trying for something new. Prudhomme seems happy to just stake everything on a big finale on an obvious, well-known climb (2008 Huez, 2009 Ventoux, 2010 Tourmalet, 2011 Huez and Galibier).

Something new might not always work, for sure. And sometimes his ideas are crazy, even stupid. But at least he's looking.

 

[Mambo95]

Yup, and he was roundly criticised for that 2004 route. And when he dished up the less brutal 2009 parcours, he got criticised for that too. It's no wonder he goes for the ballistic mountain approach, and his attitudes to Kronplatz and Crostis have been to grit teeth, and find some way to do it even if it shouldn't be possible (and yes, he's needed at least 2 attempts to get either to work).

Zomegnan always seems to be trying for something new. Prudhomme seems happy to just stake everything on a big finale on an obvious, well-known climb (2008 Huez, 2009 Ventoux, 2010 Tourmalet, 2011 Huez and Galibier).

Something new might not always work, for sure. And sometimes his ideas are crazy, even stupid. But at least he's looking.

The Giro serves up what is best for the Italian stars of the time. The monster parcours is largely to frighten off the foreign stars. It's a local race for local people - always has been.

The Tour on the other hand is a massive global event and has to accommodate that, while at the same time meeting it's obligation as a French institution, taking to all areas of the country as much as possible.

If you let fans design the course, it would collapse in to a shambles within ten days.

 

[Skip Madness]

A lot of the Giro stages this year were no different... Nothing happened until the final climb.

Hey, if you want to lay into this year's Giro route, I'm in full agreement.

Whiners.. Just enjoy the race. The cyclist are what make it interesting.

This is a common enough argument. It's true that a potentially nothing stage can be animated by aggressive riding and the right circumstances, and equally that a stage seemingly destined for attacks can end up not delivering. But in general these are the exceptions to the rule. The race route can't change account for the exceptions, but it can account for the rule.

 

[Siriuscat]

It's about the money - end of discussion. ASO are not interested in the Parcours being different, spectacular or any other superlative you want to use unless the start/finish towns and route towns are willing to pay, even Lannemezan has to pay to be a feed zone on Bastille Day!

Unless Le Tour stops being about money nothing will change

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The Giro serves up what is best for the Italian stars of the time. The monster parcours is largely to frighten off the foreign stars. It's a local race for local people - always has been.

The Tour on the other hand is a massive global event and has to accommodate that, while at the same time meeting it's obligation as a French institution, taking to all areas of the country as much as possible.

If you let fans design the course, it would collapse in to a shambles within ten days.

But much like the Tour Down Under, my problem is not with the places in the country they visit, it's with what they do with the route to where they end up. Stages where they could put a short 'wall'-like climb 10km from the end to throw sprint trains off whilst simultaneously not preventing the sprint; stages where they could soften the legs with some tough climbs, and entire regions where they could make much more interesting routes.

If you let fans design the course, it would either be nothing but mountaintops, or be just as predictable as it otherwise is - because the Tour is a big global thing and a lot of casual fans know the Tour, and they won't be all 'break from the norm, use the Jura and the Massif Central better', they'll be all 'Alpe d'Huez! Tourmalet! Ventoux! huh-huh! huh-huh!' like some cycling-fuelled Beavis and Butthead.

My main problems with this year's route are:
1) pacing issues - no GC contender is going to lose more than a handful of seconds from their TTT time until we're nearly into week 3; rendering almost the whole first half GC-irrelevant, being either "watch the last 3km to see if anybody can beat Cav" or "watch the last 3km to see if anybody can beat Gilbert".
2) Super-Besse is wasted on a not particularly tough stage, would have preferred the same run in as 2008 with the longer preceding climb
3) not enough TT mileage, and all of it at the end. There should be some ITT mileage before the major climbs, or at least before the last group of them. Oh, and there's a TTT. I hate those.

 

[hfer07]

The Tour de France route has lost its identity a bit. This year's route looks kind of like a Giro-lite, with hilly finishes, just the one tt, and the mountain stages concentrated towards the end. There is no obvious queen stage, no really long stage(s), and no cobbles, no really long time trial...

I wish the TDF could even get at least near to Il Giro on parcours criteria. Zomegnan has demonstrated to the Cycling world that risky & challenging routes are necessary nowadays to enhance the spectacle and cannot be stuck in one single recipe to succeed- even if some "sprinters" might feel "excluded" about it-whereas Prudhomme needs to please everyone in order to gather the majority of "Stars" in front of the start line.

 

[gregrowlerson]

I assume you are American with the stereotypical geographical notion? I have to say that before you post this you should have taken out a map and checked if your statement held any truth. You didn't and well... it shows.



Oh my... where to start? Let me try.... *shakes head*

First off, your knowledge of France and it's geography is obviously non-existant. Your remarks are so far beside the truth that I strongly suggest to buy an atlas and check out Europe. You will learn interesting things.

You miss the Ardennes, Vosges, Central Massif, Armorican Massif and the Jura. There is no need at all to regurgitate certain areas. France has a very varied landscape. The reason for the flat stages is choice, not necessity.

Secondly, in general TdF has 3 alpe stages, 2 Pyrenees and 1 central massif stage. The idea that a typical TdF only has 3 mountainous stages is clearly not based on facts.

I am an Australian not an American; though still ignorant.

It is true that I don't know much about the French landscape; only off what I have seen on the Tour. And yes I just assumed that the Massif and Vosges (plus others you mention) areas didn't have many high mountains - so I suppose it is an issue with the organisers not choosing the best possible stage routes.

Given the comments following my initial post, I will say that I'd be happy to leave the Alps and Pyrenees to just the 6 days, but let's make better use of the other mountain areas. There will be some good racing in the first 11 stages of this years TDF, but there is unlikely to be much happen in GC, which I disagree with.

An ITT in the first 10 days could have helped with that. And or a couple of more serious mountain stages where some of the top 10 GC guys might be separated by 1-2 minutes.

A GT winner should also have to be strong for the whole 3 weeks. A contender might have 4 bad days in the first week here, but we will not know it - and he might later hit form and end up winning. Sure, it is difficult to hold peak form for 3 weeks, but that should be part of the challenge of winning IMO.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Mont Du Chat; 14km @ 8.9%???!

We really should be talking about this climb more!

As for this years TDF, I think that the parcours overall is pretty good; maybe a 7/10. The 6 main mountain stages are impressive IMO, particularly stages 14, 17 (could produce a variety of winners) and 18. And I love the look of stage 16 into Gap. Is this similar to the route they took in '03? I remember then that this stage was quite GC selective.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Actually the '03 route was nothing like it.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/tour03/?id=stages/stage9

But I still like this years stage 16 a lot. Lots of gradual climbing, then a fairly serious Cat 2, followed by a short, sharp descent to the finish. Might be a stage for Vino - just like in '03.

 

[rghysens]

Mont Du Chat; 14km @ 8.9%???!

We really should be talking about this climb more!

That's only the west side of the climb. East side is about 18km @ 7%, last 8km of that side is 11.2% average, though.

Can't we put some pressure on prud'homme to include that climb next year? Finish in Aix-les-Bains or Chambéry?

 

[Descender]

Someone mentioned the 03 edition. While not being the best of routes, it had stuff that is badly missing this year, like this:

 

[Skip Madness]

People talking about Mont du Chat gives me the chance to repost my étape from ages ago. It can be played around with in its approach, but I'd like something like this in place of the Alpe d'Huez stage.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

People talking about Mont du Chat gives me the chance to repost my étape from ages ago. It can be played around with in its approach, but I'd like something like this in place of the Alpe d'Huez stage.

Can we link it to a preceding intermediate stage to Lyon that finishes at the Basilique on the Colline de Fourvières? a short, steep finish that could easily open up some gaps (especially if they've used some of the medium-sized climbs in the Rhône-Saône area ahead of it) that then creates a potential banana skin causing riders to have to fight for time a bit more on the Mont du Chat stage?

 

[Pilgaard]

Someone mentioned the 03 edition. While not being the best of routes, it had stuff that is badly missing this year, like this:

Exactly one of those stages which could create some interesting elements to the race. I'm all in favor of several MTF, but also a difficult mountain stage with a descent at the end. Could also be one like stage 15 in 2007, with the Portet d'Aspe (2), Mente (1), Port de Bales (HC) and Peyresourde (1) before the descent into Loudenville.

 

[jobiwan]

Exactly one of those stages which could create some interesting elements to the race. I'm all in favor of several MTF, but also a difficult mountain stage with a descent at the end. Could also be one like stage 15 in 2007, with the Portet d'Aspe (2), Mente (1), Port de Bales (HC) and Peyresourde (1) before the descent into Loudenville.

I thought the '09 stage to Le Grand Bornand was good.
5 climbs, w/ Romme, Colombiere combo at the end.

Was Prudhomme's finest work that year.
(Of course that doesn't say much about the rest of that route!! )

 

[Pilgaard]

I thought the '09 stage to Le Grand Bornand was good.
5 climbs, w/ Romme, Colombiere combo at the end.

Was Prudhomme's finest work that year.
(Of course that doesn't say much about the rest of that route!! )

Yes, exactly like that stage. As far as I can recall, the best stage of the 2009 TdF as well. Excellent combo with the Romme and Colombiere at the end.

In the same vein, the TdF has used the route to Morzine with the Joux-Plane as the last mountain several times the past decade. But the combination of several hard mountains with a descent in the end is definitely under-utilized by Preudhomme.

 

[Skip Madness]

That remains probably Prudhomme's finest work full stop so far.

 

[Dedelou]

The thing is, it's not even that they use the Alps and Pyrenées - it's that they use the same parts over and over again. Yes, they could use the Jura better (Col du Grand-Colombier, anyone?).

But every single goddamn year, Tourmalet. While whole mountainous areas go totally unused? When was the last time they properly used Alpes-Maritimes? Yes, I know that Paris-Nice uses the area, but at a time of year where many of the climbs are off limits. Mont Agel? Col des Braus? Baisse de la Cabanette? Even in the middle of the most used sections of the Alps there are climbs going unused - Pra Prunier, for example (though that's not the toughest of climbs).

Plus, the tendency to go "look! Ventoux!" "look! Alpe d'Huez!" is really frustrating - if the rest of the course is well designed and the racing is good, I couldn't give a fig if they're climbing to Alpe d'Huez or if they're on the way to Tignes... or if they're climbing Cam Basque instead of Plateau de Beille.

There are some really hard climbs in France that we hardly see. We say that the Giro and Vuelta have more options for super hard climbs, but there's Le Collet d'Avelard in this Dauphiné, averaging over 8%, and we've not seen much of Mont du Chat at all - 14km at 8,9% is difficult in anybody's language! And in the Pyrenées - what's wrong with using the Port de Larrau or Arette Pierre-Saint-Martin? Then you've got whole climbs like the Col d'Errozate, averaging over 9%, just sitting there. ASO are as bad as Unipublic at just failing to notice great climbs in their backyard.

Plus, Angelo Zomegnan would have found some method, possibly using helicopters, ski lifts and maybe even a zipline, to ensure that they could climb to Puy de Dôme, even if it could only be an MTT.

The more i read this topic the more i realize that a lot of people have NO idea what the TDR is all about.. barring a few people who think it is about them like all songs are made, you have to learn about the TDF and realize how silly this conversation has gotten to be. The TDF is a "huge " event.. where each stages go or end up is a huge bidding.. No race budget even come close. Some of the races people are mentionning here are mere preparation for it. It is not about satisfying a few thousands crazed fanatic on a slope but reaching dozen of million fans all over the world. Variety is one item on the menu.. tradition and repetition of certain stage guaranties billions of euros benefit for the cities and regions where the tour goes. It is nice to be narcissistic enough to think you can do better. I am sure some of you could make a few hundred thousands euros sending your suggestions to ASO and Prudhomme. Meanwhile, I for one HATE what the tour has become little by little and still i spend at least one week of my vacation. Taking each year a flight to France (don't get me started on what flying with my bike has become over the past 36 years. You would get me banned from this forum.) to follow a few stages mostly to avoid having to watch through the eyes of Phill Leggett and CO.

 

[Dedelou]

I wish the TDF could even get at least near to Il Giro on parcours criteria. Zomegnan has demonstrated to the Cycling world that risky & challenging routes are necessary nowadays to enhance the spectacle and cannot be stuck in one single recipe to succeed- even if some "sprinters" might feel "excluded" about it-whereas Prudhomme needs to please everyone in order to gather the majority of "Stars" in front of the start line.

how silly.. Stars are made in the TDF while (at least the americans ones ) they demand to be paid to ride in other races. You really don't understand what the Tour represent for cycling