Changes Cookson has implemented at UCI

[DirtyWorks]

I really can't see why the rules need to change. I like having two different records; one that is comparable across time, another with the gain of new technology.

The only problem I have is the times done with new technology are spec-heavy artifice making little sense. The superman position being the perfect example. A loophole is exploited and the attention likely shifts to off the track politics.

At this point in athletics, the drama is almost gone as performance is heavily quantified. Any kind of hour attempt is almost an ancient artifact like durney races.

 

[Netserk]

Yes, my friend, but since 09/09/2000 the UCI has only
sanctioned attempts on the Athletes Hour Record, now
sometimes referred to as the Merckx Rules Record (even
though Eddy's bike was undoubtedly lighter than what
is now permitted).

What's stopping riders from attempting to break the absolute record?

Yes I'm very much a noob when it comes to track.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Can't see how the hour record sporting element will become exciting over the distance regardless of the rules.

Sure we might have three interesting candidates lining up to beat a decade old record, but what about next time? Are we going to wait another decade for an attempt?

Borderline waste of time. Much bigger items needs to be sorted.

 

[DirtyWorks]

What's stopping riders from attempting to break the absolute record?

Yes I'm very much a noob when it comes to track.

Very likely the UCI not sanctioning the absolute record for someone as well known as Cancellara. They are very image-sensitive in very strange ways.

 

[Justinr]

What's stopping riders from attempting to break the absolute record?

Yes I'm very much a noob when it comes to track.

Nothing as far as I am aware - it just wont be recognised by the UCI. Although I'm not sure how much that would bother anyone unless the UCI started strong-arming people and then refusing their entry to other events.

 

[oldcrank]

What's stopping riders from attempting to break the absolute record?

Yes I'm very much a noob when it comes to track.

Nothing is stopping anyone from attempting to break it
other than the fact that the UCI would not recognize it
as a new record, so it wouldn't really be worth the huge
investment in time, equipment, venue hire, travel, etc.

That has been the case since 2000, but hopefully soon the
UCI will announce new rules and Fab and Tony will be free
to attempt it, my friend.

 

[Netserk]

Why can't they recognize both records?

 

[Justinr]

Why can't they recognize both records?

That would be far too easy - The UCI like all big institutions doesnt do common sense.

 

[Justinr]

That has been the case since 2000, but hopefully soon the
UCI will announce new rules and Fab and Tony will be free
to attempt it, my friend.

Maybe they could do it as an hour long pursuit ride with them starting on opposite sides of the track - that would be quite interesting.

 

[oldcrank]

Why can't they recognize both records?

Patience, my friend. Patience. They will soon.
Actually, as Dr. Ty Works alluded to, there is
also an official UCI Derny-paced Hour Record
as well that is currently at 66+km.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Maybe they could do it as an hour long pursuit ride with them starting on opposite sides of the track - that would be quite interesting.

If by interesting you mean friggen awesome.

I'd pay good money to see that in a velodrome.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Cookson on the Radio 4 Today program

Caught this on the way to work this morning
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0415h9r
1.43.00 to 1.48.30
Significant points.

1)Very little substance - lots of - "I don't know what the Commission are up to".
You have to take your hat off to the guy, the ultimate politician's move - build a firebreak between you and the problem.

2) Cookson knows that the commission will produce an excellent report. I think he intended to say he hopes that they will.

3) Annoying feature 1 - totally bought into the spin from the Lance camp that banning him from competing in Triathlons and Cycling is a punishment. Lance and his lawyers will hear that and it will make their day - see smoke-screens still work. Bonnet was totally sucked in, loving the talk of a reduced ban.

- Lance doesn't care.

4) Annoying feature 2 - Under Cookson's leadership the UCI is going to do nothing by way of punitive action against Lance - the court of public opinion is his baby - go tiger, go !

The UCI were quite keen to spend the membership's money on speculative and vexatious legal pursuit of Kimage for defamation of the presidents, or whatever it was they did not get further than spouting a lot of expensive hot air over in their bluster. How about suing Lance on behalf of the international membership for harming the reputation of cycling and the consequential lost revenue ? No - zero action will take place on that one.

5) No mention of how Cookson is getting on with regs for the Derny paced hour record for people with yellow shoes and green jerseys.

This was 5 minutes of quality to savour for those who think that Pat's replacement was the solution to their problems.

IOC in 6 years ? Got to be eying it up.

 

[Benotti69]

IOC would never accept gigantic changes at UCI as that might reverberate across all sports and upset their apple cart.

Cookson is not going to clean up cycling.

 

[Justinr]

If by interesting you mean friggen awesome.

I'd pay good money to see that in a velodrome.

It would be absolute bonkers wouldn't it!

 

[DirtyWorks]

Caught this on the way to work this morning
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0415h9r
1.43.00 to 1.48.30
Significant points.
totally bought into the spin from the Lance camp that banning him from competing in Triathlons and Cycling is a punishment. Lance and his lawyers will hear that and it will make their day - see smoke-screens still work. Bonnet was totally sucked in, loving the talk of a reduced ban.
...

Well, we know Mike Plant/USA Cycling was a key supporter, and the message means Lance is still blessed by the UCI. Again, this "level playing field" talk is just absurd. It will be interesting to see if they can alter Bach's much more sensible opinion.

If the commission the UCI has to investigate historical doping produces a public document then you have to wonder if it will be another Vrijman report.

It seems like Cookson is much less the street brawler than McQuaid. Very interested to see if Verbruggen pops up again at the UCI at a lower visibility role.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Caught this on the way to work this morning
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0415h9r
1.43.00 to 1.48.30
Significant points.

1)Very little substance - lots of - "I don't know what the Commission are up to".
You have to take your hat off to the guy, the ultimate politician's move - build a firebreak between you and the problem.

2) Cookson knows that the commission will produce an excellent report. I think he intended to say he hopes that they will.

3) Annoying feature 1 - totally bought into the spin from the Lance camp that banning him from competing in Triathlons and Cycling is a punishment. Lance and his lawyers will hear that and it will make their day - see smoke-screens still work. Bonnet was totally sucked in, loving the talk of a reduced ban.

- Lance doesn't care.

4) Annoying feature 2 - Under Cookson's leadership the UCI is going to do nothing by way of punitive action against Lance - the court of public opinion is his baby - go tiger, go !

5) No mention of how Cookson is getting on with regs for the Derny paced hour record for people with yellow shoes and green jerseys.

This was 5 minutes of quality to savour for those who think that Pat's replacement was the solution to their problems.

I am not sure I listened to the same broadcast as you. In my view your summary does not accurately set out the "significant points" you raised. I listened carefully to what Cookson was asked and what he said.

1. The UCI set up the Cycling Independent Reform Commission to look into the past abuses of PEDs in cycling. The UCI has been criticized for years for its failures about doping, lack of transparency and to the criticism they were sweeping doping under the rug (which was the justifiable criticism against Verbruggen and McQuaid). Read any of Dirty Works posts and you will get the picture.

So the obvious and proper thing to do was to create a body that could be independent of the UCI to investigate past failures of the UCI. The guarantee of independence to the CIRD is hardly a politician's move by Cookson but rather the common sense and smart thing to do. It is refreshing he knows nothing about what it going on at CIRD. You have completely misrepresented the context of what Cookson is saying in the interview.

2. The CIRD will produce a first rate report free from UCI interference because of the quality of the Commissionaires.

3. There was absolutely no discussion in the interview about the unfairness of LA not being able to compete in Triathlons and Cycling. Cookson made it clear he would not welcome back LA in cycling (the proper position of the UCI IMO).

He also pointed out that LA's ban is imposed by USADA and not the UCI and therefore any reduction in the lifetime ban would have to come from them.

What you fail to understand is that a lifetime ban in one sport results in a lifetime ban in another sport where the events are sanctioned by the IOC. This had nothing to do with Cookson and the UCI. Cookson offered the opinion that USADA might reduce LA's ban but added that in his opinion USADA would not reduce it to zero and Lance would not get an amnesty.

What Cookson did say which in my opinion will not give Lance's lawyers much solace, because Cookson and the UCI have nothing to do with any reduction in LA's ban is this, "...I have some sympathy for Lance's contention that he was not alone in what he did, he certainly wasn't..." That sentiment has also been expressed by a huge number of posters in the Clinic.

4. Your statement "...Under Cookson's leadership the UCI is going to do nothing by way of punitive action against Lance..." really shows you do not understand what happened in LA's case.

It was USADA and not the UCI (under McQuaid and not Cookson) who initiated disciplinary proceedings against LA. Once that occurred there is no need for UCI involvement, so don't make is sound like the UCI under Cookson had some role to play in not meting out "punitive action" to Armstrong, because they did not. The mandate was solely in the hands of USADA.

What Cookson did say is that Lance's reputation was substantially damaged by Lance himself in the court of public opinion and if he wants some redemption like Lance has been seeking, then he should testify before CIRD, implying that this may affect the public's opinion about LA.

He also strongly encouraged Verbruggen and McQuaid to testify at the CIRD.

5. The interview was not about the one hour record so why would Cookson raise it?

I think Cookson is doing a great job so far. He can only reform the UCI so much in the short time he has been in power so let's give it a year.

And please do not "spin" an interview to suit your Clinic posting predelictions and biases.

 

[sniper]

@robbie canuck
you do not seriously believe the CIRD is independent, do you?
(thanks for summary btw!)

 

[RobbieCanuck]

@robbie canuck
you do not seriously believe the CIRD is independent, do you?
(thanks for summary btw!)

Yes I do. I don't think the Commissionaires who agreed to serve, who are all stellar people, would agree to the job if they did not have independence. And if we accept what Cookson is saying he doesn't have a clue what is going on at CIRD, other than he has been told a broad spectrum of people are talking.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Personally I find all that encouraging, and I have high hopes for the CIRD. Hope people at least give them a chance to achieve something, rather than cynically writing off before it has even got going properly.

 

[Avoriaz]

You don't have to investigate the positives you know. Let's tell you what we did when we found out about that nice Rob Hayles, being over 50%. Well can you remember, Sir David told everybody and then Sir Bradley was suddenly very sick, weird that, but anyway it turns out it was all........

Hi Freddy, can you elaborate here? IIRC the 50%+ from Hayles was on the eve of the 2008 World Track Championship. Did Wiggins become suddenly very sick here? Because he won the individual pursuit and was part of the team pursuit team that broke the world record on the way to gold.

 

[sniper]

Yes I do. I don't think the Commissionaires who agreed to serve, who are all stellar people, would agree to the job if they did not have independence. And if we accept what Cookson is saying he doesn't have a clue what is going on at CIRD, other than he has been told a broad spectrum of people are talking.

iirc they're all ADA people.
i.e. people with an anti-anti-doping agenda, with desires to get higher up and make lots of candytrips.
it's not independent.
of course cookson doesn't know what's happening. He knows beforehand that the outcome will not be earthshocking in any way.
it'll be a win-win report along the lines of
"it's good, but it can always get better"

 

[DirtyWorks]

So the obvious and proper thing to do was to create a body that could be independent of the UCI to investigate past failures of the UCI. The guarantee of independence to the CIRD is hardly a politician's move by Cookson but rather the common sense and smart thing to do. It is refreshing he knows nothing about what it going on at CIRD. You have completely misrepresented the context of what Cookson is saying in the interview.

2. The CIRD will produce a first rate report free from UCI interference because of the quality of the Commissionaires.

Lots of independent reports are ordered to fit a theme no matter the field of inquiry. Specific to cycling, the Vrijman Report is a legendary example.

You may recall the last independent commission the UCI paid for was disbanded because they were, in fact, apparently behaving as an independent commission. While there was almost nothing publicly issued, what little there was seem to frighten the UCI. The UCI likes being accountable only to itself.

To be clear Robbie, I genuinely appreciate your posts. Your apparent confidence in formal organizations is always good material as a reality check against my pessimism. I need to learn from that because it's certainly worked for you.

 

[Freddythefrog]

1. Independent Reform Commission

- see response from sniper

2. The CIRD will produce a first rate report free from UCI interference because of the quality of the Commissionaires.

I tend to think the evidence might have more of a influence on the quality of the report. How does Cookson know what they have heard ?
If Lance doesn't show, who is to know who else won't show. Pre-judging in the manner Cookson was doing, may be irrelevant but it certainly was not a positive. Maybe he was trying to do a smarmy politician spin, - publicly I "know nothing" but just you wait till it's printed it is going to be a barn-buster, trust me !

3. .......... LA not being able to compete in Triathlons and Cycling. .....

Banned from the high jump, the dressage in the equestrian events, banned from tiddlywinks and the ....
People who spout this nonsense don't get it.
The punishment doesn't fit the crime. He stole millions off the innocent and now the 40something can't get a badge for doing his hobby on a Sunday, he has to do it for the love of completing it without a podium to stand on. What be like the rest of the human race and not be feted ? How tragic !

The only glove officialdom have laid no him is to say he is not the official winner of the Tour and he can't compete. And as Lance was quick to show, he still has all the trappings of success, ranch, couch, framed jerseys on the wall.

Away from officialdom The Sunday Times threatened him with legal action and they both settled out of court. Other actions are pending. In my ledger book that shows that stealing is worth about 50 (ok a number that is bigger than 40 and may well be up to 500 - I don't know what he will have left) times my lifetimes earnings.
Lance, would you do it all again ? - sure as hell yes. The ride was a burn and when you get to the end, they do nothing much - it is quite funny really.

4......there is no need for UCI involvement.......

I am not disagreeing with the technical points, I fully understood them. But read my last post. Plenty of avenues for progress, but only if there is a will. These guys can be out from behind the tree like a shot if they need to be. Lance is a far bigger and more reasonable target than ever Kimmage was. Lance's file is going to stay in the archive room.

5. The interview was not about the one hour record so why would Cookson raise it?

I'm lovin it !

Wave that flag. This is a guy who knows exactly where not to look, so he never sees what he would not want to see.

That's why I made the point about Hayles and his long term madison partner.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

DirtyWorks;1445397

Lots of independent reports are ordered to fit a theme no matter the field of inquiry. Specific to cycling, the Vrijman Report is a legendary example.

You may recall the last independent commission the UCI paid for was disbanded because they were, in fact, apparently behaving as an independent commission. While there was almost nothing publicly issued, what little there was seem to frighten the UCI. The UCI likes being accountable only to itself.

To be clear Robbie, I genuinely appreciate your posts. Your apparent confidence in formal organizations is always good material as a reality check against my pessimism. I need to learn from that because it's certainly worked for you.

Well as always DW you are correct about the lack of independence in the past by Commissions set up by the UCI. Regarding the Vrijman Report you will recall Richard Pound's famous statement that the report was “so lacking in professionalism and objectivity that it borders on farcical.” Of course Pound was criticized in that report so he had an axe to grind. But it was truly a flawed report.

You will also recall the first attempt by the UCI to set up a Commission of inquiry into past doping. It was the brainchild of McQuaid and called the UCI Independent Commission. But it was not truly independent because the UCI set the Terms of Reference.

When McQuaid realized the Commissioners were too principled and would not whitewash his deplorable role in doing nothing about doping in cycling it was killed.

I believe however Cookson has done a good job in keeping CIRD independent from the UCI. But like always we will have to wait until its report comes out in 2015 and assess how good a job they did.

Organizations are really only as good as the people running them. Verbruggen and McQuaid's tenures were rife with substantial problems. We will have to wait a bit to see what Cookson's legacy will be.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Freddythefrog;1445430

see response from sniper

Sniper is just being cynical. I have no problem with that, but I disagree with him.

I tend to think the evidence might have more of a influence on the quality of the report.

Well of course what the CIRD is told by witnesses will have a huge bearing on the report. I am saying that the Commissionaires are pretty good people with the ability to write a good report.

How does Cookson know what they have heard ?

He doesn't. All the CIRD have told the UCI is they are hearing from a lot of people and those people represent a broad spectrum of the cycling community. Nothing nefarious there.

If Lance doesn't show, who is to know who else won't show.

We will maybe know in 2015 when CIRD publishes its report. Keep in mind anyone with any knowledge about doping is assured anonymity by CIRD, so LA may go there and spill the beans and ask for anonymity and we would never know. But that is not Lance's style. His reputation in the court of public opinion is so bad my hunch is LA will hold a press conference to tell the public how committed he is to cleaning up cycling (buy some barf bags in case)

Pre-judging in the manner Cookson was doing, may be irrelevant but it certainly was not a positive.

If you listen to the Cookson interview it is abundantly clear he is not prejudging what CIRD will find. In fact he is saying quite the opposite.

Banned from the high jump, the dressage in the equestrian events, banned from tiddlywinks and the ....

Those are the IOC rules. If you are banned in cycling an Olympic sport you are banned in high jump and dressage or Triathlon other Olympic sports. He can compete in non-sanctioned Triathlons, but there are not many of those.

He can go full *** in tiddlywinks.

Away from officialdom The Sunday Times threatened him with legal action and they both settled out of court. Other actions are pending. In my ledger book that shows that stealing is worth about 50 (ok a number that is bigger than 40 and may well be up to 500 - I don't know what he will have left) times my lifetimes earnings.

My hunch is Lance will be hurting big time after the Qui Tam lawsuit. At least you have the solace of knowing you earned your money honestly.

Lance, would you do it all again ? - sure as hell yes. The ride was a burn and when you get to the end, they do nothing much

I am not sure even Lance would put himself through his self-inflicted hell again, but you never know?