Chaves vs A Yates

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Re: Re:

Jspear said:
Red Rick said:
Chaves is really overrated. This year he missed his only chance he's ever gonna get at winning a GT, and it required Steven Kruijswijk to crash out. He showed the level required to win a GT for exactly one stage.
No one is saying he's going to become a prolific TDF winner. He'll definitely win a GT in his career. Imo he was the favorite for the Vuelta before AC crashed out of the Tour. He should place 2nd.
Overrated already
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
Jspear said:
Red Rick said:
Chaves is really overrated. This year he missed his only chance he's ever gonna get at winning a GT, and it required Steven Kruijswijk to crash out. He showed the level required to win a GT for exactly one stage.
No one is saying he's going to become a prolific TDF winner. He'll definitely win a GT in his career. Imo he was the favorite for the Vuelta before AC crashed out of the Tour. He should place 2nd.
Overrated already
Ye, he wasn't the favourite before Alberto crashed either, Froome would most likely be. But he is up there, faded a little in the end in the Giro, but steady progression. Somewhat similar to Aru a year ago
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
Jspear said:
Red Rick said:
Chaves is really overrated. This year he missed his only chance he's ever gonna get at winning a GT, and it required Steven Kruijswijk to crash out. He showed the level required to win a GT for exactly one stage.
No one is saying he's going to become a prolific TDF winner. He'll definitely win a GT in his career. Imo he was the favorite for the Vuelta before AC crashed out of the Tour. He should place 2nd.
Overrated already
Just you watch. :p

Overrated would be me saying he's gonna win all three GTs.
 
Re: Re:

Jspear said:
Red Rick said:
Jspear said:
Red Rick said:
Chaves is really overrated. This year he missed his only chance he's ever gonna get at winning a GT, and it required Steven Kruijswijk to crash out. He showed the level required to win a GT for exactly one stage.
No one is saying he's going to become a prolific TDF winner. He'll definitely win a GT in his career. Imo he was the favorite for the Vuelta before AC crashed out of the Tour. He should place 2nd.
Overrated already
Just you watch. :p

Overrated would be me saying he's gonna win all three GTs.
Don't get me wrong, he could win a GT, but to me he seems like the kind of rider who's the perennial top 5 in Giro/Vuelta who could actually win if the starts aligned. The stars aligned in the Giro, he didn't win. Feel free to quote me the day he wins a GT and I'll renounce any claim I can predict the future
 
Re: Re:

Jspear said:
Red Rick said:
Jspear said:
Red Rick said:
Chaves is really overrated. This year he missed his only chance he's ever gonna get at winning a GT, and it required Steven Kruijswijk to crash out. He showed the level required to win a GT for exactly one stage.
No one is saying he's going to become a prolific TDF winner. He'll definitely win a GT in his career. Imo he was the favorite for the Vuelta before AC crashed out of the Tour. He should place 2nd.
Overrated already
Just you watch. :p

Overrated would be me saying he's gonna win all three GTs.
He needs to improve big time before he's a shoe in for a GT victory.

Even MAL isn't guaranteed to win a GT in his career as such, and he's a far bigger talent than Chaves
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
Jspear said:
Red Rick said:
Jspear said:
Red Rick said:
Chaves is really overrated. This year he missed his only chance he's ever gonna get at winning a GT, and it required Steven Kruijswijk to crash out. He showed the level required to win a GT for exactly one stage.
No one is saying he's going to become a prolific TDF winner. He'll definitely win a GT in his career. Imo he was the favorite for the Vuelta before AC crashed out of the Tour. He should place 2nd.
Overrated already
Just you watch. :p

Overrated would be me saying he's gonna win all three GTs.
Don't get me wrong, he could win a GT, but to me he seems like the kind of rider who's the perennial top 5 in Giro/Vuelta who could actually win if the starts aligned. The stars aligned in the Giro, he didn't win. Feel free to quote me the day he wins a GT and I'll renounce any claim I can predict the future
Nibbes was there.
 
Re: Re:

Zinoviev Letter said:
DFA123 said:
kwikki said:
DFA123 said:
Chaves will easily be the best GT rider. The Yates brothers are both better cyclists though; the problem is that both are too punchy to dominate GTs and punchy riders don't win GTs nowdays. They can't quite reach the same aerobic level to climb with the more one dimentional climbers in the high mountains. They could potentially win a couple of monuments between them though.
Adam seemed to do just fine in the TdF. I think he'll be right up there if he can sort his tt skills
He will neve win the Tour de France - not a chance; he doesn't have the right skills for it. He might have a shot at the Vuelta one of the years where it is light on long climbs and TTs. He did OK this tour limiting his losses, but was absolutely light years away from actually challenging for the win.

Chaves could easily win the Giro or Vuelta, and has an outside chance at the Tour. Nearly all GTs are won by the best climber these days - Chaves can be the best climber in the race, Yates never will be.
I find this kind of argument about a 23 year old who has just finished fourth in the Tour de France absolutely baffling. Yates is a better GT GC rider at that age than any recent winner of a Grand Tour, going back to Jan Ullrich (or Andy Schleck if you count him).

How does he stack up against a 23 year old Chaves? He's better. A 23 year old Froome? He's better. A 23 year old Wiggins? He's better. A 23 year old Nibali? He's better. A 23 year old Aru? He's better. A 23 year old Evans? He's better. Even Contador was 24 before he produced a GT rider better than his.

Now maybe this is nearly as good as he gets. Or maybe he gets a bit better at some things. Or a bit better at a lot of things. Or a lot better at some things. Or a lot better at a lot of things. The point is it's impossible to tell. What we can tell is that he's pretty much as good at GT GC riding as 23 year olds come.
u r forgetting Quintana 2013 2nd in TDF
 
By the way this is Orica we are talking about. They will only come to the front in the last 3-5 k so Chaves and Yates will be left to do their own races by essentially following the major favorite. THis will not be Gerrans-Matthews.
 
Chaves. With a little more development and in top form, he's dropping the best GC guys on big stages, deep into grand tours. Not sure I really see either Yates doing that.

Chaves is the best new(ish) climbing talent on the scene. The question mark over three week recovery is a bit trite - his last two GT results surely answer that. TT ability is probably the real question. Could be losing minutes on a very long flat specialist route - but these are increasingly rare.
 
Re: Re:

IndianCyclist said:
Zinoviev Letter said:
DFA123 said:
kwikki said:
DFA123 said:
Chaves will easily be the best GT rider. The Yates brothers are both better cyclists though; the problem is that both are too punchy to dominate GTs and punchy riders don't win GTs nowdays. They can't quite reach the same aerobic level to climb with the more one dimentional climbers in the high mountains. They could potentially win a couple of monuments between them though.
Adam seemed to do just fine in the TdF. I think he'll be right up there if he can sort his tt skills
He will neve win the Tour de France - not a chance; he doesn't have the right skills for it. He might have a shot at the Vuelta one of the years where it is light on long climbs and TTs. He did OK this tour limiting his losses, but was absolutely light years away from actually challenging for the win.

Chaves could easily win the Giro or Vuelta, and has an outside chance at the Tour. Nearly all GTs are won by the best climber these days - Chaves can be the best climber in the race, Yates never will be.
I find this kind of argument about a 23 year old who has just finished fourth in the Tour de France absolutely baffling. Yates is a better GT GC rider at that age than any recent winner of a Grand Tour, going back to Jan Ullrich (or Andy Schleck if you count him).

How does he stack up against a 23 year old Chaves? He's better. A 23 year old Froome? He's better. A 23 year old Wiggins? He's better. A 23 year old Nibali? He's better. A 23 year old Aru? He's better. A 23 year old Evans? He's better. Even Contador was 24 before he produced a GT rider better than his.

Now maybe this is nearly as good as he gets. Or maybe he gets a bit better at some things. Or a bit better at a lot of things. Or a lot better at some things. Or a lot better at a lot of things. The point is it's impossible to tell. What we can tell is that he's pretty much as good at GT GC riding as 23 year olds come.
u r forgetting Quintana 2013 2nd in TDF
Yes indeed I was. But the broad point is unchanged - Yates is a much better GC rider already than the overwhelming majority of recent GT winners were at 23. And if we restrict that to the TdeF, we are talking about going back to Jan to find a winner with a better GC result younger. That doesn't mean he will win the TdeF, but it makes claims that he will never be a top level GT rider just bizarre.
 
Jun 24, 2013
2,705
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Re: Re:

Zinoviev Letter said:
DFA123 said:
kwikki said:
DFA123 said:
Chaves will easily be the best GT rider. The Yates brothers are both better cyclists though; the problem is that both are too punchy to dominate GTs and punchy riders don't win GTs nowdays. They can't quite reach the same aerobic level to climb with the more one dimentional climbers in the high mountains. They could potentially win a couple of monuments between them though.
Adam seemed to do just fine in the TdF. I think he'll be right up there if he can sort his tt skills
He will neve win the Tour de France - not a chance; he doesn't have the right skills for it. He might have a shot at the Vuelta one of the years where it is light on long climbs and TTs. He did OK this tour limiting his losses, but was absolutely light years away from actually challenging for the win.

Chaves could easily win the Giro or Vuelta, and has an outside chance at the Tour. Nearly all GTs are won by the best climber these days - Chaves can be the best climber in the race, Yates never will be.
I find this kind of argument about a 23 year old who has just finished fourth in the Tour de France absolutely baffling. Yates is a better GT GC rider at that age than any recent winner of a Grand Tour, going back to Jan Ullrich (or Andy Schleck if you count him).
.
Valverde, Quintana, Rujano, Schleck, Aru, Contador, Pinot were all more impressive GT rider at around similar age.
 
Re: Re:

PremierAndrew said:
Angliru said:
PremierAndrew said:
Red Rick said:
First, is Simon Yates leading the Vuelta? Seeing how he does there might add another rider to the equation. Though I've never really payed that much attention to the Yates brothers, so I don't know if it was clear who had more potential before Simon's legal troubles.
Simon has always had the bigger potential, but Adam is more suited to grand tours, while Simon is more of a punchy classics rider

Anyway, consider Chaves is 3 years older than the Yates twins, it's pretty obvious who the biggest talents are here. Have to love Chavito tho
Chaves lost a year and half to a serious injury which stunted his development. I don't think they are that far apart in terms of their experience and room for growth in their careers.
I am fully aware of Chavito's injury. But at the end of the day, Chaves' strength is clearly stage racing, and his recovery is nowhere near good enough to challenge those at the top of the sport in Grand Tours. Meanwhile, both of the Yates twins have the potential to be the best classics specialists of their generation if things go right for them, whilst being at a similar level to Chaves in the GTs as well
I find it interesting that you can easily apply the top end potential of the Yates to your argument but minimize the prospects for growth when it comes to Chavez, as if he's hit his peak and there's no chance that he will mature and improve. Sounds a bit one-sided and biased. What has Simon Yates shown to put him on par with Chavez in grand tours?
 
Re: Re:

Billie said:
Zinoviev Letter said:
DFA123 said:
kwikki said:
DFA123 said:
Chaves will easily be the best GT rider. The Yates brothers are both better cyclists though; the problem is that both are too punchy to dominate GTs and punchy riders don't win GTs nowdays. They can't quite reach the same aerobic level to climb with the more one dimentional climbers in the high mountains. They could potentially win a couple of monuments between them though.
Adam seemed to do just fine in the TdF. I think he'll be right up there if he can sort his tt skills
He will neve win the Tour de France - not a chance; he doesn't have the right skills for it. He might have a shot at the Vuelta one of the years where it is light on long climbs and TTs. He did OK this tour limiting his losses, but was absolutely light years away from actually challenging for the win.

Chaves could easily win the Giro or Vuelta, and has an outside chance at the Tour. Nearly all GTs are won by the best climber these days - Chaves can be the best climber in the race, Yates never will be.
I find this kind of argument about a 23 year old who has just finished fourth in the Tour de France absolutely baffling. Yates is a better GT GC rider at that age than any recent winner of a Grand Tour, going back to Jan Ullrich (or Andy Schleck if you count him).
.
Valverde, Quintana, Rujano, Schleck, Aru, Contador, Pinot were all more impressive GT rider at around similar age.
You can add guys like Cunego, Gesink, Nibali, Kreuziger, Popovych to that list as well
 

rm7

Mar 14, 2015
964
0
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I don't understand why people always make the assumption, that these teams line up to win.

Orica knows that neither Chavez or the Yates brother can win the TdF next year, so their goal will probably be a top5. Chavez may have a opportunity to win the Giro, or at least be a favourite to podium.

The only riders that lines up to win the Tour at all cost will be Froome, Contador and Nibali. Quintana seems to rather be 2nd or 3rd than risk it all and end up without a podium (probably because of the sponsors too).
 
Re: Re:

Zinoviev Letter said:
DFA123 said:
kwikki said:
DFA123 said:
Chaves will easily be the best GT rider. The Yates brothers are both better cyclists though; the problem is that both are too punchy to dominate GTs and punchy riders don't win GTs nowdays. They can't quite reach the same aerobic level to climb with the more one dimentional climbers in the high mountains. They could potentially win a couple of monuments between them though.
Adam seemed to do just fine in the TdF. I think he'll be right up there if he can sort his tt skills
He will neve win the Tour de France - not a chance; he doesn't have the right skills for it. He might have a shot at the Vuelta one of the years where it is light on long climbs and TTs. He did OK this tour limiting his losses, but was absolutely light years away from actually challenging for the win.

Chaves could easily win the Giro or Vuelta, and has an outside chance at the Tour. Nearly all GTs are won by the best climber these days - Chaves can be the best climber in the race, Yates never will be.
I find this kind of argument about a 23 year old who has just finished fourth in the Tour de France absolutely baffling. Yates is a better GT GC rider at that age than any recent winner of a Grand Tour, going back to Jan Ullrich (or Andy Schleck if you count him).

How does he stack up against a 23 year old Chaves? He's better. A 23 year old Froome? He's better. A 23 year old Wiggins? He's better. A 23 year old Nibali? He's better. A 23 year old Aru? He's better. A 23 year old Evans? He's better. Even Contador was 24 before he produced a GT rider better than his.

Now maybe this is nearly as good as he gets. Or maybe he gets a bit better at some things. Or a bit better at a lot of things. Or a lot better at some things. Or a lot better at a lot of things. The point is it's impossible to tell. What we can tell is that he's pretty much as good at GT GC riding as 23 year olds come.
Contador says hello.
 
Re: Re:

perico said:
Zinoviev Letter said:
DFA123 said:
kwikki said:
DFA123 said:
Chaves will easily be the best GT rider. The Yates brothers are both better cyclists though; the problem is that both are too punchy to dominate GTs and punchy riders don't win GTs nowdays. They can't quite reach the same aerobic level to climb with the more one dimentional climbers in the high mountains. They could potentially win a couple of monuments between them though.
Adam seemed to do just fine in the TdF. I think he'll be right up there if he can sort his tt skills
He will neve win the Tour de France - not a chance; he doesn't have the right skills for it. He might have a shot at the Vuelta one of the years where it is light on long climbs and TTs. He did OK this tour limiting his losses, but was absolutely light years away from actually challenging for the win.

Chaves could easily win the Giro or Vuelta, and has an outside chance at the Tour. Nearly all GTs are won by the best climber these days - Chaves can be the best climber in the race, Yates never will be.
I find this kind of argument about a 23 year old who has just finished fourth in the Tour de France absolutely baffling. Yates is a better GT GC rider at that age than any recent winner of a Grand Tour, going back to Jan Ullrich (or Andy Schleck if you count him).

How does he stack up against a 23 year old Chaves? He's better. A 23 year old Froome? He's better. A 23 year old Wiggins? He's better. A 23 year old Nibali? He's better. A 23 year old Aru? He's better. A 23 year old Evans? He's better. Even Contador was 24 before he produced a GT rider better than his.

Now maybe this is nearly as good as he gets. Or maybe he gets a bit better at some things. Or a bit better at a lot of things. Or a lot better at some things. Or a lot better at a lot of things. The point is it's impossible to tell. What we can tell is that he's pretty much as good at GT GC riding as 23 year olds come.
Contador says hello.
read the whole post.
 
Re: Re:

burning said:
Billie said:
Zinoviev Letter said:
DFA123 said:
kwikki said:
Adam seemed to do just fine in the TdF. I think he'll be right up there if he can sort his tt skills
He will neve win the Tour de France - not a chance; he doesn't have the right skills for it. He might have a shot at the Vuelta one of the years where it is light on long climbs and TTs. He did OK this tour limiting his losses, but was absolutely light years away from actually challenging for the win.

Chaves could easily win the Giro or Vuelta, and has an outside chance at the Tour. Nearly all GTs are won by the best climber these days - Chaves can be the best climber in the race, Yates never will be.
I find this kind of argument about a 23 year old who has just finished fourth in the Tour de France absolutely baffling. Yates is a better GT GC rider at that age than any recent winner of a Grand Tour, going back to Jan Ullrich (or Andy Schleck if you count him).
.
Valverde, Quintana, Rujano, Schleck, Aru, Contador, Pinot were all more impressive GT rider at around similar age.
You can add guys like Cunego, Gesink, Nibali, Kreuziger, Popovych to that list as well
Some people need to read a little bit more carefully. Rujano, Pinot, Kreuziger, Popovych, Gesink and, depending on your point of view, Schleck, are not Grand Tour winners. None of Valverde, Aru, Contador or Nibali had a GC result as good as 4th in the Tour before they were 24 or older. For that matter neither did Kreuziger, Pinot, or Gesink. The only exceptions are Quintana and Cunego, both of whom did indeed get a better result at 23.

Despite the misplaced pedantry, the fact remains: Yates has produced a better GT GC performance at 23 than any recent Tour winner (give or take Schleck), any recent GT winner bar Cunego and Quintana and any recent GT contender bar a handful. Yet this thread has still seen people confidently predict that he won't win the Tour and won't be a regular contender for GTs.

When we are talking about GT winners the recent history of cycling shows that kind of confidence to be seriously misplaced. We just can't tell how a 23 year old will develop. Most recent GT winners were not this good at his age. A few were this good. Being markedly better at this age is extremely rare. On the other hand you get riders who are very good at 23 and never get much better (like Popovych or Gesink). Saying, this 23 year old who can already come fourth in the Tour will be x, y or z is the province of crystal ball gazing. All we can really say is that he is already good enough to win a GT with an unusually weak field but not already good enough to really contest the win a GT with a good field. And that he's young enough that further development is likely.
 
Re: Re:

Zinoviev Letter said:
Some people need to read a little bit more carefully. Rujano, Pinot, Kreuziger, Popovych, Gesink and, depending on your point of view, Schleck, are not Grand Tour winners. None of Valverde, Aru, Contador or Nibali had a GC result as good as 4th in the Tour before they were 24 or older. For that matter neither did Kreuziger, Pinot, or Gesink. The only exceptions are Quintana and Cunego, both of whom did indeed get a better result at 23.

Despite the misplaced pedantry, the fact remains: Yates has produced a better GT GC performance at 23 than any recent Tour winner (give or take Schleck), any recent GT winner bar Cunego and Quintana and any recent GT contender bar a handful. Yet this thread has still seen people confidently predict that he won't win the Tour and won't be a regular contender for GTs.

When we are talking about GT winners the recent history of cycling shows that kind of confidence to be seriously misplaced. We just can't tell how a 23 year old will develop. Most recent GT winners were not this good at his age. A few were this good. Being markedly better at this age is extremely rare. On the other hand you get riders who are very good at 23 and never get much better (like Popovych or Gesink). Saying, this 23 year old who can already come fourth in the Tour will be x, y or z is the province of crystal ball gazing. All we can really say is that he is already good enough to win a GT with an unusually weak field but not already good enough to really contest the win a GT with a good field. And that he's young enough that further development is likely.
No he hasn't. You could argue he produced a better result, but his performance was not indicative of a future Tour winner; he hung on to the back of the main group riding at tempo, almost never attacking and finished third as bigger name rivals tried to attack and lost time. His power profile just isn't right to win it, unless they change the parcours significantly.

His power profile is like a poorer version of Valverde, and there is only so much you can do to change that.
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
No he hasn't. You could argue he produced a better result, but his performance was not indicative of a future Tour winner; he hung on to the back of the main group riding at tempo, almost never attacking and finished third as bigger name rivals tried to attack and lost time.
He is 23. The difference between him and most recent GT winners at 23 is not that he was clinging on to the small leader's group while they were attacking that group. It's that he was clinging on to the small leader's group, while they were somewhere back down the mountain. The fact that he was able to cling on does not make him a less likely future winner.
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Zinoviev Letter said:
Some people need to read a little bit more carefully. Rujano, Pinot, Kreuziger, Popovych, Gesink and, depending on your point of view, Schleck, are not Grand Tour winners. None of Valverde, Aru, Contador or Nibali had a GC result as good as 4th in the Tour before they were 24 or older. For that matter neither did Kreuziger, Pinot, or Gesink. The only exceptions are Quintana and Cunego, both of whom did indeed get a better result at 23.

Despite the misplaced pedantry, the fact remains: Yates has produced a better GT GC performance at 23 than any recent Tour winner (give or take Schleck), any recent GT winner bar Cunego and Quintana and any recent GT contender bar a handful. Yet this thread has still seen people confidently predict that he won't win the Tour and won't be a regular contender for GTs.

When we are talking about GT winners the recent history of cycling shows that kind of confidence to be seriously misplaced. We just can't tell how a 23 year old will develop. Most recent GT winners were not this good at his age. A few were this good. Being markedly better at this age is extremely rare. On the other hand you get riders who are very good at 23 and never get much better (like Popovych or Gesink). Saying, this 23 year old who can already come fourth in the Tour will be x, y or z is the province of crystal ball gazing. All we can really say is that he is already good enough to win a GT with an unusually weak field but not already good enough to really contest the win a GT with a good field. And that he's young enough that further development is likely.
No he hasn't. You could argue he produced a better result, but his performance was not indicative of a future Tour winner; he hung on to the back of the main group riding at tempo, almost never attacking and finished third as bigger name rivals tried to attack and lost time. His power profile just isn't right to win it, unless they change the parcours significantly.

His power profile is like a poorer version of Valverde, and there is only so much you can do to change that.
When Froome and Porte attacked, he was the best of the rest by far, gapping the rest multiple times. If he hadn't gone out too fast in the mountain TT, he would have finished on the podium, at the age of 23, which is an incredible feat.
 
Re: Re:

PremierAndrew said:
When Froome and Porte attacked, he was the best of the rest by far, gapping the rest multiple times. If he hadn't gone out too fast in the mountain TT, he would have finished on the podium, at the age of 23, which is an incredible feat.
Don't think I agree with that. Who was the "best of the rest" varied from mountain to mountain, with lots of riders looking the best at least once and getting dropped at least once. The top 10 behind Froome were unusually close in climbing level to each other.
 

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