Chaves vs A Yates

[Oliwright]

I was thinking about the debate of who is currently the best GC leader between Yates and Chaves and which of them will be a better GC leader in the future.

The reason I made it into a thread is due to the debate about who should lead Orica at which races next year.

Mat White said at the Tour they are going to send Chaves and both Yates to the TDF in some sort of 3 pronged attack.
Personally i think this is both irresponsible and foolish.
The only riders I can see beating Froome are Quintana(In 2015 form) and Dumoulin (should the right course come up) Froome has shown that he is better than Contador (as he is in decline) and he beat Nibali by 8:36 in 2015.

So if they send Chaves to the Tour with Adam Yates. Let's imagine both riders improve like they did in the last year. The best they can hope for is 3rd and 4th.

My philosophy is why change something which worked amazingly.
Chaves is much more suited to the Giro and Yates to the Tour imo. (Yates has said he prefers the longer climbs of the tour).
I would send Chaves to the Giro to try and win the 100th edition, whilst sending A Yates to the tour again.
We saw how badly Aru did when he switched from targeting the Giro to the Tour.
You could end up with nether doing well.
Also A.Yates will be able to compete for White Jersey at the Tour which increases his value at that race.

Meanwhile send S Yates to Tour or Giro as a domestique, and let him lead the Vuelta.

I see A Yates as > Than Chaves right now and in the future.
Even though I love both riders.

What would you do?

 

[Red Rick]

First, is Simon Yates leading the Vuelta? Seeing how he does there might add another rider to the equation. Though I've never really payed that much attention to the Yates brothers, so I don't know if it was clear who had more potential before Simon's legal troubles.

Anyway, from what I've seen, Yates isn't that much more a TdF rider than Chaves. Yates is the kind of climber that's better in hilly classic as a seperate specialty than in TT's.

I don't think Yates would've done as well in the Giro as Chaves has. I do think he will just be a better GC contender than Chaves no matter the race in the future.

Anyway, Chaves isn't a Tour rider. Let him do Giro-Vuelta. Yates could do the Tour, though I'd like to see him give a legit crack at one of the other GTs. He's not winning the Tour anytime soon.

What OBE totally should do is send Chaves, Yates, Yates and Kreuziger to the Ardennes, and wreck face over the place #makeardennesclassicsgreatagain

 

[claude cat]

Surely you wouldn't be making a call until we know the parcours of the Giro, TdF etc?

 

[Gigs_98]

First of all, no Froome hasn't shown he is better than Contador. Nobody said that before this tour but now Contadors crash somehow was the definite indicator how weak he has become ...

Anyway, I think this topic is actually very interesting. I think neither is a potential tour de france winner. A 4th place in the tdf with only 23 years is ofc. mightily impressive but the tdf field this year was just relatively weak and his performance in the 3rd week wasn't very promising. Depending on what he targets he might however be able to win the giro and the vuelta in the future. He is probably already in the top 10 of gc riders and will hopefully still improve a lot and be in the top 5 in a few years. Therefore I would understand it if he rides the giro next year because I think he would have a decent shot at winning it. Chaves however will probably never be more than a 2nd tier gc rider. The guy is 26 already and I fear he won't really improve that much in the future. Problem I see for him is that he will even hardly win a lesser gt. This year he was more or less on the same level as yates but I think that will change drastically in the next few years.
The question is therefore what OBE wants to achieve. Do they want a tdf win? Then Yates should probably try again in a few years but right now I don't think it's possible. Do they want a gt win? Then they should probably let yates try the giro-vuelta double while Caves can try top get a top 10 in the tour or go stage hunting. The problem about the whole thing is that Yates will probably want to ride the tour because it suits him better and Chaves will want to ride the giro because it suits him better but that way they might end up with two gc riders who are just that little bit too weak to win in their respective gt.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I have a hard time telling you who are the best riders of Adam, Simon and Chaves right now, tho I'd probably pick Chaves, also for this upcoming Vuelta. Might be because I like him better, but he has proven in 2 GT's that he is the real deal. Simon still needs to show that, but hasn't really got an opportunity just yet. Simon should be protected as well going into the Vuelta tho. He seems in very good shape.

All I know it would be extremely stupid for all 3 to target the Tour. At least one of them needs to ride the Giro, depending on the route obviously. But the Giro won't be a cakewalk either - it will be extremely contested. Hard to say anything more without having actually seen the routes, but on the other hand, they are probably pretty even in ITTs.

 

[Jspear]

Chaves is better and will win all three GTs once AC has retired.

 

[yaco]

My understanding is that each rider will lead a GT in 2017. Which GT could change depending on the parcours.

And if Rob Power ever recovers from his Tendonitis type injury which has kept him out all year, then in 4 or 5 years, he should be better than the other three riders.

It's a good problem to have.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

It's not yet clear what the upper limit is for any of them (and in the case of Simon it's not yet proven that he belongs in the conversation). They are all young enough to improve considerably, including Chaves.

 

[Billie]

Chaves is much more suited to the Giro and Yates to the Tour imo. (Yates has said he prefers the longer climbs of the tour).

Giro climbs were much longer than Tour climbs

 

[SafeBet]

Re:

It's not yet clear what the upper limit is for any of them (and in the case of Simon it's not yet proven that he belongs in the conversation). They are all young enough to improve considerably, including Chaves.

Completely agree with this post.

I'd take Chaves over both of the twins at the moment, but it's too early to say how they will develop. I don't think any of them has shown to be more suited to one GT in particular thus far.

 

[Pantani Attacks]

This really isn't even close. Chaves by a considerable distance.

 

[Gigs_98]

Sorry for starting the Froome vs. Contador discussion again, but I still want to explain what I wanted to say with my comment, therefore: viewtopic.php?p=1993648#p1993648

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re:

First, is Simon Yates leading the Vuelta? Seeing how he does there might add another rider to the equation. Though I've never really payed that much attention to the Yates brothers, so I don't know if it was clear who had more potential before Simon's legal troubles.

Simon has always had the bigger potential, but Adam is more suited to grand tours, while Simon is more of a punchy classics rider

Anyway, consider Chaves is 3 years older than the Yates twins, it's pretty obvious who the biggest talents are here. Have to love Chavito tho

 

[R0BL4MBT0N]

Re: Re:

Simon has always had the bigger potential, but Adam is more suited to grand tours, while Simon is more of a punchy classics rider

I have to disagree with this. Having ridden with them both from a young age it is clear that Simon was the more serious of the two and I think this gave him an edge when they were younger and pushed him ahead of Adam while Adam ended up being a bit in Simon's shadow. When Simon went onto the Academy programme and Adam wasn't taken on and went to France instead he finally seems to have been able to step out from Simon's shadow and excel himself.

As riders they naturally have very similar characteristics. I think Simon seems more punchy because of the split at 18 where Simon ended up doing a lot of track work whereas Adam went off to the mountains. The balance hasn't quite evened back out, perhaps because it is easy to stick with and focus on what you are excelling at but it could easily be re-dressed. How both their careers will eventually pan out I don't know but I would consider both to have their best chance of winning big in one day races - they have the right balance of aggression and nous for it. I'm less certain that the relatively conservative nature of 3 week stage racing is their true forte.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

I think Chaves is pretty good but to be honest I think he's a bit overrated as well. I think that both Yates' will be better than Chaves, though I hope for the opposite as Chaves is very likeable and I don't really like the Yates'.

 

[Oliwright]

Re:

I think Chaves is pretty good but to be honest I think he's a bit overrated as well. I think that both Yates' will be better than Chaves, though I hope for the opposite as Chaves is very likeable and I don't really like the Yates'.

That's the best pp ive seen

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

First, is Simon Yates leading the Vuelta? Seeing how he does there might add another rider to the equation. Though I've never really payed that much attention to the Yates brothers, so I don't know if it was clear who had more potential before Simon's legal troubles.

Simon has always had the bigger potential, but Adam is more suited to grand tours, while Simon is more of a punchy classics rider

Anyway, consider Chaves is 3 years older than the Yates twins, it's pretty obvious who the biggest talents are here. Have to love Chavito tho

Chaves lost a year and half to a serious injury which stunted his development. I don't think they are that far apart in terms of their experience and room for growth in their careers.

 

[DFA123]

Chaves will easily be the best GT rider. The Yates brothers are both better cyclists though; the problem is that both are too punchy to dominate GTs and punchy riders don't win GTs nowdays. They can't quite reach the same aerobic level to climb with the more one dimentional climbers in the high mountains. They could potentially win a couple of monuments between them though.

 

[Red Rick]

Chaves is really overrated. This year he missed his only chance he's ever gonna get at winning a GT, and it required Steven Kruijswijk to crash out. He showed the level required to win a GT for exactly one stage.

 

[kwikki]

Re:

Chaves will easily be the best GT rider. The Yates brothers are both better cyclists though; the problem is that both are too punchy to dominate GTs and punchy riders don't win GTs nowdays. They can't quite reach the same aerobic level to climb with the more one dimentional climbers in the high mountains. They could potentially win a couple of monuments between them though.

Adam seemed to do just fine in the TdF. I think he'll be right up there if he can sort his tt skills

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

First, is Simon Yates leading the Vuelta? Seeing how he does there might add another rider to the equation. Though I've never really payed that much attention to the Yates brothers, so I don't know if it was clear who had more potential before Simon's legal troubles.

Simon has always had the bigger potential, but Adam is more suited to grand tours, while Simon is more of a punchy classics rider

Anyway, consider Chaves is 3 years older than the Yates twins, it's pretty obvious who the biggest talents are here. Have to love Chavito tho

Chaves lost a year and half to a serious injury which stunted his development. I don't think they are that far apart in terms of their experience and room for growth in their careers.

I am fully aware of Chavito's injury. But at the end of the day, Chaves' strength is clearly stage racing, and his recovery is nowhere near good enough to challenge those at the top of the sport in Grand Tours. Meanwhile, both of the Yates twins have the potential to be the best classics specialists of their generation if things go right for them, whilst being at a similar level to Chaves in the GTs as well

 

[LaFlorecita]

I think Chaves is their best bet to win a GT. But Orica have to make a choice: do they want their best GT contender at the Tour to get as good of a result as possible, or do they send him to one of the "lesser" GTs to actually win one?

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Chaves will easily be the best GT rider. The Yates brothers are both better cyclists though; the problem is that both are too punchy to dominate GTs and punchy riders don't win GTs nowdays. They can't quite reach the same aerobic level to climb with the more one dimentional climbers in the high mountains. They could potentially win a couple of monuments between them though.

Adam seemed to do just fine in the TdF. I think he'll be right up there if he can sort his tt skills

He will neve win the Tour de France - not a chance; he doesn't have the right skills for it. He might have a shot at the Vuelta one of the years where it is light on long climbs and TTs. He did OK this tour limiting his losses, but was absolutely light years away from actually challenging for the win.

Chaves could easily win the Giro or Vuelta, and has an outside chance at the Tour. Nearly all GTs are won by the best climber these days - Chaves can be the best climber in the race, Yates never will be.

 

[Jspear]

Re:

Chaves is really overrated. This year he missed his only chance he's ever gonna get at winning a GT, and it required Steven Kruijswijk to crash out. He showed the level required to win a GT for exactly one stage.

No one is saying he's going to become a prolific TDF winner. He'll definitely win a GT in his career. Imo he was the favorite for the Vuelta before AC crashed out of the Tour. He should place 2nd.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

Chaves will easily be the best GT rider. The Yates brothers are both better cyclists though; the problem is that both are too punchy to dominate GTs and punchy riders don't win GTs nowdays. They can't quite reach the same aerobic level to climb with the more one dimentional climbers in the high mountains. They could potentially win a couple of monuments between them though.

Adam seemed to do just fine in the TdF. I think he'll be right up there if he can sort his tt skills

He will neve win the Tour de France - not a chance; he doesn't have the right skills for it. He might have a shot at the Vuelta one of the years where it is light on long climbs and TTs. He did OK this tour limiting his losses, but was absolutely light years away from actually challenging for the win.

Chaves could easily win the Giro or Vuelta, and has an outside chance at the Tour. Nearly all GTs are won by the best climber these days - Chaves can be the best climber in the race, Yates never will be.

I find this kind of argument about a 23 year old who has just finished fourth in the Tour de France absolutely baffling. Yates is a better GT GC rider at that age than any recent winner of a Grand Tour, going back to Jan Ullrich (or Andy Schleck if you count him).

How does he stack up against a 23 year old Chaves? He's better. A 23 year old Froome? He's better. A 23 year old Wiggins? He's better. A 23 year old Nibali? He's better. A 23 year old Aru? He's better. A 23 year old Evans? He's better. Even Contador was 24 before he produced a GT rider better than his.

Now maybe this is nearly as good as he gets. Or maybe he gets a bit better at some things. Or a bit better at a lot of things. Or a lot better at some things. Or a lot better at a lot of things. The point is it's impossible to tell. What we can tell is that he's pretty much as good at GT GC riding as 23 year olds come.