Choosing a Religion

[CentralCaliBike]

I believe(don't like the word "faith") that science can and will explain everything with time.

According to Webster's "Faith is a firm belief in something for which there is no proof - at this point it is more difficult to scientifically believe that the complex universe we live in was created out of chaos than it is to believe in a universe created by God. Of course neither position has direct and actual proof (although I consider order to be the by-product of intelligence) so by definition atheism and a believe in a creator both require "faith".

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Believe what you want, but if your "Faith" demands you deny rigorously supported Scientific theories, your "Faith" therefore demands you also refuse to benefit from the products and advances those Theories deliver. That is, a consistent non-hypocrital Intelligent Design supporter should boycott all fossil fuel derivatives and modern medicines, as Petrology, Immunology and Virology all draw heavily on Darwinian Evolution for any of their discoveries.

Don't devalue Nature by insisting that an anthropomorphic entity is responsible for everything. Although it takes a small leap of understanding to comprehend how simple amino acids are able to be created spontaneously in an aqueous solution containing nitrogen, oxygen and carbon when electricity is applied in the presence of a clay catalyst (eg a muddy puddle struck by lightning), it takes a veritable denial of logical processing to believe that something as complex an omnipotent "designer" can manufacturer itself in a vacuum.

One acid wrong and what happens to more complex systems?

Besides since I believe that God designed the law of science and basic order, I have no problem with science (and it's by-products).

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Are Atheists just confused Agnostics? or is it the other way around? .......Please explain.

Please forgive. I have a Jewish mother and a Unitarian father. Confusion run amok.

Agnostics readily admit they do not know the answers - atheists are certain they will but just have not figured it out yet.

 

[BroDeal]

One acid wrong and what happens to more complex systems?

That evolutionary branch ends but the others continue. Organisms get more and more complex until they eventually look at themselves and claim they could not be the product of hundreds of millions of years of evolution. In fact they go beyond that and deny the process of evolution itself even though the facts are all around them.

 

[Andrichuk]

Besides since I believe that God designed the law of science and basic order, I have no problem with science (and it's by-products).

You have to step in and correct me. I thought many (I have no church terminology) popes and priests and alter boys and what not thought dinosaurs didnt exist. I mean they were proved by science to at one point in time to have existed. Do you just choose what you want to believe and think you are right? What about the other million of people who believe in god and listen to the popes and other guys? Do you only go after atheists or are other religious views just as crazy to you?

I heard many don`t believe in using condoms. I for one, think its a great idea to protect yourself against viruses and diseases. If I was religious I could see the point of throwing out condoms cuz you have god watching over you.....oh wait religious people get STD`s too. How can you go against what the Vatican says and still think your correct? Isn`t it gods way or the high way, not pick and choose.

Atheists say god doesn`t exist. How can we have hundreds of different religions then? Obviously only one can be right. Why do we all think were so special that we have chosen the right thing to believe in?

 

[Anonymous]

First off I want to say I am questioning your belifes in this post. I am sincerely sorry if you find my post disrespectful in any way. If you do just ignore it. This isn't meant in any way to be disrespectful or hurtful, I'm just curious. We obviously have different points of view and I want to understand why.

You have every right to question me on anything because I have chosen to give my beliefs. Just don't be upset if I don't give you the answers you assume I will give you. From your tone, you differ little from an evangelical Christian in approach. Evangelical atheists are just as annoying as evangelical Christians.

I think its situational how you benefit from believe or not believing in god. I understand some one using religion to get through a tough time such as a death of a close friend may make it easier, but following my current beliefs I still think its silly.

I don't "use" religion. That is what you don't understand.

Do you think that religious people have better lives than Atheists? You don't think that something would of happened anyways if you didn't ask for help? The world doesn't revolve around you. Billions of living organisms on this planet, each with a slight impact. There is no way I can believe that a miracle happened when you asked for help, rather than a chain reaction involving you.

I don't think "better" is a very good evaluation term for a life. We all live in the best way we know how, "better" has nothing to do with it in terms of relation to the life of another. My life is better now than before, but I have no idea how that compares to the life of you or anyone else because we might very well evaluate our lives on completely different criteria.

I don't know what would have happened to me if I hadn't asked for help in the way that I did because I asked for help and what happened is what happened. This isn't a dungeon and dragons game where I can live out the effects of another choice.

Say the 2 of us are training for the up coming season. Every week I follow what my coach says and I have a great season where as you ask for a good season as well as following your coach's training plan and also have an equally good season. Did you need god? would you have not of had a good season with out your prayer? Is everyone else better than you also required to pray?

My relationship with God does not function on that level, so I have no answer to your question. I don't ask him for gold or success.

When people look at religion like this I can understand why some one would turn to it. If you feel lonely, or questioning the meaning of life, then why wouldn't you turn to god. Its reassuring to "know" the answer, or to have the company of some one with lots of power.

I didn't turn to God because I was lonely or was questioning the meaning of life. I turned to him because I was a freaked out drug addict who couldn't quit and wasn't getting any help from anyone I knew with that. I had run out of ideas and people with ideas and I just kept on blotting out existence as best as I could. All I did was get down on my knees one night (True fact: I had watched a Simpsons episode where Lisa had said "The last refuge of a scoundrel is prayer" so I figured I would give it a try), and over and over said "help." I walked into work a couple of days later, and a guy who had gotten sober asked me a simple question, "Are you ready to quit?" I said "yes." Then I was introduced to the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. It is a spiritual program, and is more successful than any treatment in the history of mankind for that problem. Far more successful in fact.

If you know you don't get immunity why would you invest in it? Stupid question, people gamble all the time but what keeps you from thinking with in reason when asking for god to help you? Why don't you ask god to give you super powers so you can fly? I think people ask reasonable questions cuz they know there is a chance it could happen. For every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction.

I don't ask God for those things like super powers because they don't exist. I ask for things that you don't understand because you do not have faith. You would never understand what I pray for because we have a completely different base for our lives.

Why wouldn't you hope for that? Its scary knowing everything you have ever done is meaningless if you just cease to exist once you die.

I don't believe in God because I am scared. In fact, fear takes me further from God.

One last point from me. Why do you keep asking him for help. I think you get the same result when you don't believe in god. It will always be a 50% chance weather it works out or not. Guidance from god doesn't push give you a 55% chance of success. You say he doesn't always answer, but something still happens, even if its not your requested outcome, the world keeps moving.

Again, you think I ask for things and I don't.

When you succeed without gods assistance, what do you think?

I live asking for God's help in very many things, but not for many things at all. God isn't a magic genie, and my relationship does not have that characteristic.

You think you know what I believe. You think you understand why I have a relationship with God. You assume that you can imagine the world I see through MY eyes. You are just like Pat Robertson in that. Problem is that you assume things you have no basis for understanding because you have not lived my life and seen through my eyes.

I have no idea why you believe what you believe, and frankly, don't care to. Your basis for living, atheism, holds no draw for me. I was an atheist, and it didn't work for me. If it works for you, then I have no problem with that, nor a desire to convince you it doesn't work. I don't mean this in a disrespectful way at all, but I only seek the opinions and advice of people who live in a way I would also like to live. If I wanted to learn how to make cake, I wouldn't go to a mechanic. I would go to a baker.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

You have to step in and correct me. I thought many (I have no church terminology) popes and priests and alter boys and what not thought dinosaurs didnt exist. I mean they were proved by science to at one point in time to have existed. Do you just choose what you want to believe and think you are right? What about the other million of people who believe in god and listen to the popes and other guys? Do you only go after atheists or are other religious views just as crazy to you?

I heard many don`t believe in using condoms. I for one, think its a great idea to protect yourself against viruses and diseases. If I was religious I could see the point of throwing out condoms cuz you have god watching over you.....oh wait religious people get STD`s too. How can you go against what the Vatican says and still think your correct? Isn`t it gods way or the high way, not pick and choose.

Atheists say god doesn`t exist. How can we have hundreds of different religions then? Obviously only one can be right. Why do we all think were so special that we have chosen the right thing to believe in?

Not a catholic so popes are out, condoms in - while the Catholic church has a large number of followers they do not represent the entire spectrum. I actually believe in dinosaurs and a world that was significantly changed at the time of a world wide flood (I figure this will draw some scorn).

As for any one being 100% correct, I doubt any are - one of the most prolific writers of the new testament part of the bible said that we (including him) can understand no better than looking through a dirty mirror.

I have looked at other religions and beliefs systems. I believe my knowledge as far as God is concerned is extremely limited and likely inaccurate, however, since I start with the idea that God is a God of order (based on the basic mechanics of life), I am looking for a religion that has order as a basic principal. Not living at the time of creation, or a few thousand years later when Christ lived on earth, my beliefs have to take the form of faith - I figure I am not likely to change my beliefs unless something else proves more logical (and it has not for the past forty some years).

 

[Anonymous]

I will say this, but you really won't understand I do not believe. I don't "use" religion or God. I live life on a spiritual basis. That isn't using anything. It is living from a basis of faith. Unless you have done so in a real way, you will not understand anything about that. You think you know, but you are in error. Again, I don't presume to understand the basis for which you live because atheism didn't work for me. It works for you. I cannot for the life of me tell you why you don't believe, nor understand why. I don't live your life. I live mine.

 

[Anonymous]

You have every right to question me on anything because I have chosen to give my beliefs. Just don't be upset if I don't give you the answers you assume I will give you. From your tone, you differ little from an evangelical Christian in approach. Evangelical atheists are just as annoying as evangelical Christians.




I don't "use" religion. That is what you don't understand.




I don't think "better" is a very good evaluation term for a life. We all live in the best way we know how, "better" has nothing to do with it in terms of relation to the life of another. My life is better now than before, but I have no idea how that compares to the life of you or anyone else because we might very well evaluate our lives on completely different criteria.

I don't know what would have happened to me if I hadn't asked for help in the way that I did because I asked for help and what happened is what happened. This isn't a dungeon and dragons game where I can live out the effects of another choice.



My relationship with God does not function on that level, so I have no answer to your question. I don't ask him for gold or success.






I didn't turn to God because I was lonely or was questioning the meaning of life. I turned to him because I was a freaked out drug addict who couldn't quit and wasn't getting any help from anyone I knew with that. I had run out of ideas and people with ideas and I just kept on blotting out existence as best as I could. All I did was get down on my knees one night (True fact: I had watched a Simpsons episode where Lisa had said "The last refuge of a scoundrel is prayer" so I figured I would give it a try), and over and over said "help." I walked into work a couple of days later, and a guy who had gotten sober asked me a simple question, "Are you ready to quit?" I said "yes." Then I was introduced to the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. It is a spiritual program, and is more successful than any treatment in the history of mankind for that problem. Far more successful in fact.



I don't ask God for those things like super powers because they don't exist. I ask for things that you don't understand because you do not have faith. You would never understand what I pray for because we have a completely different base for our lives.





I don't believe in God because I am scared. In fact, fear takes me further from God.



Again, you think I ask for things and I don't.



I live asking for God's help in very many things, but not for many things at all. God isn't a magic genie, and my relationship does not have that characteristic.

You think you know what I believe. You think you understand why I have a relationship with God. You assume that you can imagine the world I see through MY eyes. You are just like Pat Robertson in that. Problem is that you assume things you have no basis for understanding because you have not lived my life and seen through my eyes.

I have no idea why you believe what you believe, and frankly, don't care to. Your basis for living, atheism, holds no draw for me. I was an atheist, and it didn't work for me. If it works for you, then I have no problem with that, nor a desire to convince you it doesn't work. I don't mean this in a disrespectful way at all, but I only seek the opinions and advice of people who live in a way I would also like to live. If I wanted to learn how to make cake, I wouldn't go to a mechanic. I would go to a baker.

Stunning post.

In several short sentences you express more than you know. An on-going success story. The human spirit rising in the human condition. Heartfelt and well stated. Standing ovation...

 

[Andrichuk]

I don't ask God for those things like super powers because they don't exist. I ask for things that you don't understand because you do not have faith. You would never understand what I pray for because we have a completely different base for our lives.

Well its clear I'm being the aggressor here and you are defending, maybe not even defending, just explaining things how you see. I also agree, I don't understand how you "use" religion, I thought I did. I don't feel any more compelled to try your version of it than before(not that you care) but I will admit I was a ****.

Again, I have to push my "annoying" question cuz I'm not certain about your beliefs, I only know my previous judgments were far off. How do you know super powers don't exist? You have never seen them and to my understanding you have never seen god, you have never had a conversation with god(Step in here when I say something wrong). The way I see it is you asked for help and later you were presented with the option to cure your problem(I hope I'm getting it right so far). I understand its pretty far fetch to say you asked and randomly some guy comes along and asks if you if you are ready to quit. So I can see the urge to say god did it(that was me trying to understand why you chose god there, not questioning why you did it, thats clear).

Again, you think I ask for things and I don't.

Well that's clear.


All I can say is I'm no closer to wanting to believe in god, but I at least have a better understanding of why people choose to follow it.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

You have every right to question me on anything because I have chosen to give my beliefs. Just don't be upset if I don't give you the answers you assume I will give you. From your tone, you differ little from an evangelical Christian in approach. Evangelical atheists are just as annoying as evangelical Christians.




I don't "use" religion. That is what you don't understand.




I don't think "better" is a very good evaluation term for a life. We all live in the best way we know how, "better" has nothing to do with it in terms of relation to the life of another. My life is better now than before, but I have no idea how that compares to the life of you or anyone else because we might very well evaluate our lives on completely different criteria.

I don't know what would have happened to me if I hadn't asked for help in the way that I did because I asked for help and what happened is what happened. This isn't a dungeon and dragons game where I can live out the effects of another choice.



My relationship with God does not function on that level, so I have no answer to your question. I don't ask him for gold or success.






I didn't turn to God because I was lonely or was questioning the meaning of life. I turned to him because I was a freaked out drug addict who couldn't quit and wasn't getting any help from anyone I knew with that. I had run out of ideas and people with ideas and I just kept on blotting out existence as best as I could. All I did was get down on my knees one night (True fact: I had watched a Simpsons episode where Lisa had said "The last refuge of a scoundrel is prayer" so I figured I would give it a try), and over and over said "help." I walked into work a couple of days later, and a guy who had gotten sober asked me a simple question, "Are you ready to quit?" I said "yes." Then I was introduced to the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. It is a spiritual program, and is more successful than any treatment in the history of mankind for that problem. Far more successful in fact.



I don't ask God for those things like super powers because they don't exist. I ask for things that you don't understand because you do not have faith. You would never understand what I pray for because we have a completely different base for our lives.





I don't believe in God because I am scared. In fact, fear takes me further from God.



Again, you think I ask for things and I don't.



I live asking for God's help in very many things, but not for many things at all. God isn't a magic genie, and my relationship does not have that characteristic.

You think you know what I believe. You think you understand why I have a relationship with God. You assume that you can imagine the world I see through MY eyes. You are just like Pat Robertson in that. Problem is that you assume things you have no basis for understanding because you have not lived my life and seen through my eyes.

I have no idea why you believe what you believe, and frankly, don't care to. Your basis for living, atheism, holds no draw for me. I was an atheist, and it didn't work for me. If it works for you, then I have no problem with that, nor a desire to convince you it doesn't work. I don't mean this in a disrespectful way at all, but I only seek the opinions and advice of people who live in a way I would also like to live. If I wanted to learn how to make cake, I wouldn't go to a mechanic. I would go to a baker.

+1 - insightful and compelling.

 

[Sprocket01]

TFF and other 'believers' may have sensitive front temporal lobes.

Very interesting doc...

"God on the Brain"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNBxJJsllwY

 

[Hugh Januss]

Agnostics readily admit they do not know the answers - atheists are certain they will but just have not figured it out yet.

Agnostics don't believe there is a god.
Atheists believe there is no god.

 

[TheDude]

Agnostic

I thought this was going to be Campy vs Sram discussion.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Very honest, and thoughtful posts from you TFF. Take it as a sincere compliment when I say after 3,000+ posts, my esteem for you has grown to a level I would not have guessed a day, a week, or a month ago. Kudos for turning your life around, and for sharing with us.

 

[krebs303]

Very honest, and thoughtful posts from you TFF. Take it as a sincere compliment when I say after 3,000+ posts, my esteem for you has grown to a level I would not have guessed a day, a week, or a month ago. Kudos for turning your life around, and for sharing with us.

I agree. Kudos TFF.

 

[Anonymous]

Well its clear I'm being the aggressor here and you are defending, maybe not even defending, just explaining things how you see. I also agree, I don't understand how you "use" religion, I thought I did. I don't feel any more compelled to try your version of it than before(not that you care) but I will admit I was a ****.

Again, I have to push my "annoying" question cuz I'm not certain about your beliefs, I only know my previous judgments were far off. How do you know super powers don't exist? You have never seen them and to my understanding you have never seen god, you have never had a conversation with god(Step in here when I say something wrong). The way I see it is you asked for help and later you were presented with the option to cure your problem(I hope I'm getting it right so far). I understand its pretty far fetch to say you asked and randomly some guy comes along and asks if you if you are ready to quit. So I can see the urge to say god did it(that was me trying to understand why you chose god there, not questioning why you did it, thats clear).

There is much more to the story, but you are not asking because you want to believe, you are asking because you think I shouldn't. What you need to ask yourself is why you have to try to convince me I am wrong. Is it because you believe the world would be better if people like me didn't believe what we believe, or is there another reason that has to do with what happens in your mind? Again, I believe the motivation of the Evangelical Atheist to be very similar to that of many Fundamentalist Christians. You need others to believe what you do for you, not for them.

I don't believe in super powers because they defy the laws of science. I do believe in miracles because I have seen thousands of them in the lives of people who once were what I was, but whether or not you believe that is entirely up to you. Your belief or lack thereof is not relevant to how I live my life.

All I can say is I'm no closer to wanting to believe in god, but I at least have a better understanding of why people choose to follow it.

Thats great. If you ever want to explore the idea that there could be a God, and you have a truly open mind about it, PM me and I will tell you what I have seen work. If not, I sincerely hope you live a happy and useful life. That you are loved and love, and that you know contentment. If you have those things, and believe there is no God, I am sincerely happy for you. Sincerely. That didn't happen for me with atheism, but I have absolutely no idea if it can for anyone else. Hell, you may not even want those things. I did, and I found them.

Stunning post.

In several short sentences you express more than you know. An on-going success story. The human spirit rising in the human condition. Heartfelt and well stated. Standing ovation...

Very honest, and thoughtful posts from you TFF. Take it as a sincere compliment when I say after 3,000+ posts, my esteem for you has grown to a level I would not have guessed a day, a week, or a month ago. Kudos for turning your life around, and for sharing with us.

I agree. Kudos TFF.

Thank you SoCal, Alpe, and krebs. I am a mixed bag, that is for sure; just ask my ex-wife.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Agnostics don't believe there is a god.
Atheists believe there is no god.

Webster's states: 1 : a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

 

[Sprocket01]

I do believe in miracles because I have seen thousands of them

Thought that remark should be highlighted.

 

[Cobber]

The chart left out the "Do you believe in unicorns -> Yes -> You should worship Lance Armstrong" section.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you SoCal, Alpe, and krebs. I am a mixed bag, that is for sure; just ask my ex-wife.

i will give my thoughts on what TFF has said purely by saying, this is one of the reasons i pushed for a cafe section...

people on here arent just opinions and bicycles, that is just a small part of our lives, and a community, isnt really a true community if all we talk about is cycling.. the cafe is one of the things that keeps me coming back.. it doesnt mean we should change how we feel about peoples cycling opinion, or anything else, but knowing more about each other as people cant hurt...

i dunno, discussions in here make people real, instead of them just being a written opinion about lance armstrong or something...

 

[Anonymous]

Webster's states: 1 : a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

ive always seen as agnostics dont know about god, atheists believe there is no god...

im a bit inbetween, i dont beleive in god, i think on the whole the old testament is hogwash, i beleive in the science, and darwin, and archaelogy, however, i do beleive that jesus existed,. i dont think he performed miracles, i think he was just a very clever man who people blew up out of all proportion.. (life of brian isnt so far from the truth).. i do have moral objections to religion, the hate, the persecution, but it could also just be that i have moral issues with humanity in general.. personally i would rather spend my time around animals that humans..

 

[CentralCaliBike]

ive always seen as agnostics dont know about god, atheists believe there is no god...

im a bit inbetween, i dont beleive in god, i think on the whole the old testament is hogwash, i beleive in the science, and darwin, and archaelogy, however, i do beleive that jesus existed,. i dont think he performed miracles, i think he was just a very clever man who people blew up out of all proportion.. (life of brian isnt so far from the truth).. i do have moral objections to religion, the hate, the persecution, but it could also just be that i have moral issues with humanity in general.. personally i would rather spend my time around animals that humans..

I figure that to believe Jesus existed would take him out of the snake charmer world - the immediate followers who wrote about him suggested a belief system that avoid personal gain (either monetarily or from politically) with stories of the good Samaritan and the Rich Young Ruler.

As for the animal thing - I have a son who shares your view.

 

[Anonymous]

Thought that remark should be highlighted.

I do believe in miracles because I have seen thousands of them in the lives of people who once were what I was, but whether or not you believe that is entirely up to you.

Not sure why you posted only part of thought.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Not sure why you posted only part of thought.

Because otherwise he wouldn't be able to imagine he was making some sort of *** point.