Teams & Riders Chris Froome Discussion Thread.

[Poursuivant]

Re: Re:

Froome got hammered in last stage of Dauphine by Contador, and hammered big time. In fact Froome lost more time there than Contador lost ever to Froome, in all races together

You must know that was because of his crash though. Look at that Froome to the Froome of the Dauphine Stage 2, it's chalk and cheese.

Yeah, and Contador had an off-year in 2013. SeriousSam seems to have a case of "selective memory". As I said earlier, you can't point to 2013 etc and ignore the times Contador crushed Froome.

As I said earlier in the thread, the only time I think we seen both of them at the same time close to 100%, was the first two stages of the Dauphine. Crashes really did rob us last year. I don't think either were. 100 % at Vuelta, although Contador was stronger. I don't know if you can read too much into RDS either because neither are. 100% in February.

 

[Netserk]

How is Dauphiné the best example? Froome was defending winner and won Romandie 4 weeks before. Alberto is always a little bit behind in Dauphiné and hadn't raced since Vasco. No surprise Froome was better in the first two stages.

 

[LaFlorecita]

With "although Contador was stronger" do you mean he was closer to top form? Because there is no evidence for that.

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

What I find rather amusing about Froome's Giro comments. Is that he was not keen on the Tour's lack of TT's. However he was a TT monster in Brads tour & his Tour wins. And at the Olympic Games. Odd?

I also believe that once Berto announced the Double. SKY looked at the Giro as a way to wear Berto down for the Tour. :Send: Richie to ride for the Win and if he does Great. If he loses and Hammers Berto Great. Win & Win either way.

Proves my point exactly. Froome and Sky to scared to face Bertie unless he his tired. Cannot beat him on equal terms.
Nice post cheers

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re:

How is Dauphiné the best example? Froome was defending winner and won Romandie 4 weeks before. Alberto is always a little bit behind in Dauphiné and hadn't raced since Vasco. No surprise Froome was better in the first two stages.

Well, which example would be better? It might not be a perfect example, but Contador was flying all through 2014, including a win at the Tour of the Basque Countries, so I don't think he was that far from peak at any point during the spring racing season, even with the race layoff. Unlike prior years where he was more in 'training mode', I would not be surprised if Contador went into the Dauphine with the intent to beat Froome in the the GC.

Overall, I think that is the one time that they raced where they were both close their apex. And the result was that there was practically no difference between the two. Froome's small margin could easily be attributed to Contador's race 'rustiness'.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

I believe the join decision between him and sky, probably after sky brought him back to earth and reminded him that Giro has the most brutal weather. With him so skinny, asthma and his record so far of getting chest infection, they opted to stir him from the Giro. I don't think it's because Contador's announcement. Besides having Contador doing the Giro, opens up bigger chance for Froome to win another TDF. (not saying that nibs and Quintana aren't a worthy opponent). But with in form Froome, Nibs and Quintana are no match for him.

Wrong Quintana Dropped Froome in his tour winning year,,,2 years on Quintana will drop Froome on at least 2 stages. In form Froome beat nobody when he won his tour "bertie was way off form"

Since then Froome has failed to deliver. Big mountains Froome will get hammered by Quintana.

Your trolling is getting weaker these days Ray,maybe you need a break to recharge your batteries

Quintana did drop froome at the tour. IMO Quintana will drop him again at the tour. That's not trolling that's my opinion. Lets see what happens at the tour shall we.

I have decided not to tire myself in responding to you. But you are the longest lasting active trolleur in this forum
You must have some special ability in the end since you are successfully managing that
Anyway, You say "Froome will get hammered by Quintana" and afterwards "Quintana will drop Froome again"
Those two sentences are not the same mate. In some scenarios they cannot even be used to back up each other.
Pantani dropped Armstrong on Courchevel 2000 (year and altitude), but Armstrong did not get hammered by Pantani that year. The same analogy goes to 2013 TDF as well.

where in this thread does it say I have to be a Froome fan boy ?
I have a view backed up with facts enjoy the Vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YScKkvHIxwE

Quintana will take big time out of Froome in the tour I don't care if he hammers him decimates him or gives him a severe beating. Getting all pedantic about words to describe how Quintana will drop Froome is a bit silly. You know exactly my point.
You have your view and I respect it with our resorting to name calling or getting worked up.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Froome got hammered in last stage of Dauphine by Contador, and hammered big time. In fact Froome lost more time there than Contador lost ever to Froome, in all races together

You must know that was because of his crash though. Look at that Froome to the Froome of the Dauphine Stage 2, it's chalk and cheese.

Froome showed in the prologue and in the first mountain stage that he was the stronger rider in Tours last year, and Contador was lucky of their crash in both Dauphiné and Tour, although he showed a big determination and level to win the Vuelta, (by lying about his condition, but that is allowed)

And he Bertie still has a big scar on his knee where he was lying.

What a desperate post

 

[Poursuivant]

Re:

With "although Contador was stronger" do you mean he was closer to top form? Because there is no evidence for that.

I think Contador recovered marginally better than Froome in time. Personally, Froome has always struck me as being quite fragile in the sense that a minor setback could have big consequences on his form, look at how poor he was in Catalunya after his illness.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

I think Contador recovered marginally better than Froome in time. Personally, Froome has always struck me as being quite fragile in the sense that a minor setback could have big consequences on his form, look at how poor he was in Catalunya after his illness.

Speaking from my own experience, I think some people are just inherently better at getting results at less than their full capacity than others. I am someone in the latter group who needs a lot of training to be competitive. But I also knew guys who would not do much training in the off-season and perform well right off the bat. Performance curves are going to be different for different individuals. So, trying to guess whether Contador or Froome was closer to form coming off of their injuries is interesting speculation, but mostly just conjecture.

 

[Poursuivant]

Re: Re:

I think Contador recovered marginally better than Froome in time. Personally, Froome has always struck me as being quite fragile in the sense that a minor setback could have big consequences on his form, look at how poor he was in Catalunya after his illness.

Speaking from my own experience, I think some people are just inherently better at getting results at less than their full capacity than others. I am someone in the latter group who needs a lot of training to be competitive. But I also knew guys who would not do much training in the off-season and perform well right off the bat. Performance curves are going to be different for different individuals. So, trying to guess whether Contador or Froome was closer to form coming off of their injuries is interesting speculation, but mostly just conjecture.

I just hope crashes don't spoil anything again.

 

[Poursuivant]

Re:

last year 2014 Bertie v Froome ,,,its all there. WARNING don't watch if you get upset at Bertie defeating Froome


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YScKkvHIxwE

Desperate to know what that first song is

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

last year 2014 Bertie v Froome ,,,its all there. WARNING don't watch if you get upset at Bertie defeating Froome


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YScKkvHIxwE

Desperate to know what that first song is

In the comments the creator of the video says it's not a commercial song, might be a production of his own??

 

[Poursuivant]

Re: Re:

last year 2014 Bertie v Froome ,,,its all there. WARNING don't watch if you get upset at Bertie defeating Froome


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YScKkvHIxwE

Desperate to know what that first song is

In the comments the creator of the video says it's not a commercial song, might be a production of his own??

Ah, just seen that, what a shame, thank you!

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

He has been the best climber since 2012.

In 2012 he was absent all season, the only good performance he did was at the Tour, where he showed he was a level above Wiggins, but then again it was just.. wiggins.
Then he got hammered at the Vuelta - finishing over 10 minutes off Contador.

The "best climber" would surely do better at two Grand Tours back to back, especially not pushing it at the Tour, and taking it easy ALL season long.
You can't really say who was the best climber in 2012, but I would opt for Rodriguez though given his performance in Giro - Vuelta.

Alright, in 2014 Contador was obviously the best climber.

So you only have 2013 where Froome was the best. So correction, he's not the best climber since 2012, he was the best in 2013, end of the story. But I'm not surprised at you saying that, most froome's fans think the whole cycling hierarchy has been established at the Tour 13' . They just can't get over it.

It's just about timing, Froome had the privilege to be in his prime when Contador had his worst form ever due to multiple reasons.

And those talking about the Dauphiné 14', who the *** cares about Dauphiné apart from Sky and talansky (LEL)? Froome will always have the edge on anyone on that race given his racing schedule - coming out of Romandie when Contador usually comes back from two months without racing, hanging on like he did with the lack of competition in the first 2 stages was already remarkable, he would've trashed him at the Tour if they both stayed in the race.

Contador at his best is just so much more consistent and undroppable. I mean Froome in his supposed prime got his ass absolutely kicked in the 3rd week of the Tour 13'. Even his time up Mont Ventoux going full out is not even faster than Contador's in 09, holding back all the way for Team purposes.

 

[nightingale2016]

Re: Re:

So Contador was obviously in a better shape than Quintana, Uran and Mollema in Trentino because of racing Ruta del Sol before by this logic, but anyway lost. Oh, sorry he did it intentionally to give the opponents some privilege otherwise they are not able to win any race Contador enters.

Either Contador wins either no justice in this world. The world revolves only in this way.

 

[ray j willings]

Froome is a great rider and if Sky let him lose he could have possibly had another tour and a vuelta win in his pocket.
But that was a time when Evans never got back to his best after his tour win. Bertie was way down on form.
And IMO Nibs even though a multi GT winner and a very smart rider he has still IMO not proved himself in the mountains against the top climbers i.e Contador Quintana Froome etc Since his tour win Froome has come up against tougher rivals and been defeated.
Trying to compere him to Bertie is crazy. Froome has a long way to go. Bertie has proved himself against the best and dominated. IF BERTIE IS BACK TO HIS BEST then there is no one around right now who can match him.
Froome has not beaten the best "just the rest that were around "
I think what we saw at the Vuelta last year and we have seen it this year his Froome riding smart.
He knows he will have bad days so he rides tempo so he can cut his losses on the bad day or 2 he will have.
But if you look back at the Vuelta and the battle for podium if Valverde etc had not played games Froome would have lost some big time and not even made the podium.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

In 2012 he was absent all season, the only good performance he did was at the Tour, where he showed he was a level above Wiggins, but then again it was just.. wiggins.

Evans was there as well. Nibali too. Contador wasn't there but in his 2013 form he would have been crushed by climbing Wiggins. Froome without a doubt reached the highest peak of climbing in 2012.

Then he got hammered at the Vuelta - finishing over 10 minutes off Contador.

He had a gruelling schedule up to that point. Contador was training all year for the Vuelta and as fresh as a daisy. Also, the level of climbing Contador displayed was poor.

You can't really say who was the best climber in 2012, but I would opt for Rodriguez though given his performance in Giro - Vuelta.

So, do you think Rodriguez's climbing was considerably worse in 2013 when he got annhiliated by Froome, but still did his best ever Tour? Froome in 2012 at the Tour was probably as strong as in 2013.

Alright, in 2014 Contador was obviously the best climber.

Not obvious at all he was better than Nibali or Quintana. Not obvious at all he would have been better than Froome, had they both not crashed.

So you only have 2013 where Froome was the best. So correction, he's not the best climber since 2012, he was the best in 2013, end of the story. But I'm not surprised at you saying that, most froome's fans think the whole cycling hierarchy has been established at the Tour 13' . They just can't get over it.

I'm not a Froome fan. I'm a Contador fan. First and foremost, I'm just an interested observer of the sport though.

he would've trashed him at the Tour if they both stayed in the race.

That's wishful thinking. The rider that trashes peak Froome in a grand tour doesn't exist in today's peloton.

Contador at his best is just so much more consistent and undroppable. I mean Froome in his supposed prime got his ass absolutely kicked in the 3rd week of the Tour 13'. Even his time up Mont Ventoux going full out is not even faster than Contador's in 09, holding back all the way for Team purposes.

I'm certain Froome's best isn't good enough to drop 09 Contador. There's however no evidence Contador can ever reach that level again. I mean, he beat Canc in a flat time trial and broke the VAM record back then. It's like 2011 Gilbert. Those guys are gone forever, never to return.

If all you're saying is that 09 Contador is better than the best Froome we have seen, no argument from me. I'm more interested in the now, as opposed to the distant past, though.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

Evans was there as well. Nibali too. Contador wasn't there but in his 2013 form he would have been crushed by climbing Wiggins. Froome without a doubt reached the highest peak of climbing in 2012.

Why 2013 again ? Do you think it's representative of Contador's average form or career?

Yep, and I say in 2014 Tour form he would've crushed both of them if you go that way.

He had a gruelling schedule up to that point. Contador was training all year for the Vuelta and as fresh as a daisy. Also, the level of climbing Contador displayed was poor.

A gruelling schedule? He took it easy all season, and didn't push it at the Tour. Everything is said, he should've performed at least decent at the Vuelta and he was just completely off.

Now Compare that with what Contador did in 2011 Tour - 4 crashes and hardest Giro course of the last decade.

And Contador overtrained before the Vuelta 12', cruelly lacked racing kilometers. It was obvious he was not going to be at his best.

You can't really say who was the best climber in 2012, but I would opt for Rodriguez though given his performance in Giro - Vuelta.

So, do you think Rodriguez's climbing was considerably worse in 2013 when he got annhiliated by Froome, but still did his best ever Tour? Froome in 2012 at the Tour was probably as strong as in 2013.

What? We didn't see the same Tour in 2013. Rodriguez's climbing was surely much worse in the first 2 weeks and then peaked in the 3rd weak and started dropping Froome.

Still Rodriguez Vuelta 12' was better than Rodriguez 3rd week of the Tour 13'. He was a beast at the Vuelta, and clocked the record up bola del mundo.

Not obvious at all he was better than Nibali or Quintana. Not obvious at all he would have been better than Froome, had they both not crashed.

Are you being serious?

Keep dreaming. I won't even bother, Contador was the best climber overall last year and at his best in July. There's no argument here.

 

[nightingale2016]

People loses sight of Froome's power which eliminated Contador as an opponent in 2013. If there was not Froome, AC could've very likely comfortably win Prati Tivo and Tirreno. I don't see anyone who could interfere him with winning Valmorel and Risoul. Froome is the only guy so far who made Contador to sit in the group for too long and bonk, making big mistakes as a result. Ax-3 and Mont Ventoux were 2 huge psychological blows which Contador couldn't get over on the Alpes. If there was no Froome in the 2013 Tour, the race could have unfolded absolutely differently, Contador could've probably win if he got lucky a bit.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re:

People loses sight of Froome's power which eliminated Contador as an opponent in 2013. If there was not Froome, AC could've very likely comfortably win Prati Tivo and Tirreno. I don't see anyone who could interfere him with winning Valmorel and Risoul. Froome is the only guy so far who made Contador to sit in the group for too long and bonk, making big mistakes as a result. Ax-3 and Mont Ventoux were 2 huge psychological blows which Contador couldn't get over on the Alpes. If there was no Froome in the 2013 Tour, the race could have unfolded absolutely differently, Contador could've probably win if he got lucky a bit.

What a load of crap. Losing sight of Froome's power
So what, your theory is Contador was in his regular, usual great form in 2013?

Froome wasn't even that good in Tirreno 13' by the way . But regardless, AC wouldn't have won either way, on pradi ti tivo he attacked, got caught a few meters later then got dropped by nibali and a couple other guys which was ridiculous.
Couldn't attack anywhere else, just like in Pais Vasco. He was weak all the way, collapsing on his saddle without even trying anything and catastrophic Pais vasco's last TT.

At the Tour, he was finishing behind mollema and valverde already in Ax3, weaker than Kreuziger. Gets dropped by Nieve on Ventoux and caught up by Krezuziger - finishing over 2 minutes behind Quintana on Alpe d'huez with Fuglsang (LOL). Sttruggling all the wayyyy on Amnoz, with Porte teasing him by staying on his wheel.

Duuuuuuude, pleeeeease, for god's sake, there's no lose of Froome's power, Contador was absolute ***. I'll give you Froome was strong for sure, but Contador was worse than ever. As I said many times, it's like putting Froome Vuelta 12' against Contador 09'. You know.

The only stages he could've won without Froome in 13' was the 5th one at Tour d'Oman where he lost the sprint and Valmorel at Dauphiné showing a little spark still nowhere near 14' levels.

 

[nightingale2016]

Re: Re:

People loses sight of Froome's power which eliminated Contador as an opponent in 2013. If there was not Froome, AC could've very likely comfortably win Prati Tivo and Tirreno. I don't see anyone who could interfere him with winning Valmorel and Risoul. Froome is the only guy so far who made Contador to sit in the group for too long and bonk, making big mistakes as a result. Ax-3 and Mont Ventoux were 2 huge psychological blows which Contador couldn't get over on the Alpes. If there was no Froome in the 2013 Tour, the race could have unfolded absolutely differently, Contador could've probably win if he got lucky a bit.

What a load of crap. Losing sight of Froome's power
So what, your theory is Contador was in his regular, usual great form in 2013?

Froome wasn't even that good in Tirreno 13' by the way . But regardless, AC wouldn't have won either way, on pradi ti tivo he attacked, got caught a few meters later then got dropped by nibali and a couple other guys which was ridiculous.
Couldn't attack anywhere else, just like in Pais Vasco. He was weak all the way, collapsing on his saddle without even trying anything and catastrophic Pais vasco's last TT.

At the Tour, he was finishing behind mollema and valverde already in Ax3, weaker than Kreuziger. Gets dropped by Nieve on Ventoux and caught up by Krezuziger - finishing over 2 minutes behind Quintana on Alpe d'huez with Fuglsang (LOL). Sttruggling all the wayyyy on Amnoz, with Porte teasing him by staying on his wheel.

Duuuuuuude, pleeeeease, for god's sake, there's no lose of Froome's power, Contador was absolute ****. I'll give you Froome was strong for sure, but Contador was worse than ever. As I said many times, it's like putting Froome Vuelta 12' against Contador 09'. You know.

The only stages he could've won without Froome in 13' was the 5th one at Tour d'Oman where he lost the sprint and Valmorel at Dauphiné showing a little spark still nowhere near 14' levels.

Then there's no point in discussion if for one there are two plots in action.

1. Contador wins. Everything is ok. The system is balanced
2 Someone else won only because Contador was bad, the king gave the losers kind of a privileges cuz that's the only way to win with the king in a race

If Contador beats other guy, that would be equally reasonable to say 'oh, my guy wasn't at his peak, was bad compared to his best samples'. And such a line wouldn't be less logical and weak than yours, in spite of obvious partial emotional investment.

Allright, let's boil it down to quite a liberal statement: in this period of his career Contador has a very dangerous and close opponent who is able to beat him in any stage race. Disagree?

 

[SeriousSam]

There something like the No True Scotsman fallacy going on here. If Contador loses, he cannot have been at his best, because we define his best as when he dominates everyone. Then Contador being the one true god of climbing is obviously going to be consistent with any result. To be fair, others are guilty of the same fallascious reasoning with regards to Froome.

Dispassionate observers such as myself instead genuinely try to infer what their respective peaks are - without bringing sympathy or wishful thinking into it - based on the limited data available. To me, that data suggests that Froome with ideal preparation in top form is the best climber in the peloton, and has been since 2012 (ie, the best climbing performance he is capable of was constant for the last 3 years, as opposed to Quintana's and Nibali's which improved, but is still below Froome's.)

This level of climbing performance is still not as good as Contador's in 2009. 09 AC would never get dropped on Ax3 and Ventoux and probably even gain some time. But as Contador hasn't been close to reaching that level since, it's just not interesting nor relevant for today. Contador is in the tail end of his career. Today, we only have indications that there probably isn't much between them when both are at their best, climbing wise. This is based on 2014.

 

[ray j willings]

Bertie was not at his best when he won the Vuelta last year. He looked short of top form but strong enough to win.
I don't think Froome was at his best but its harder to tell because of his riding style, look at the vid I posted and you can see Froome attacking Bertie in the Vuelta. He looks fast and all that but Bertie is not having any trouble hanging on.
I think last years early season Bertie "again look at the vid" would have been unbeatable at last years tour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUmuJj9PUzM

 

[Mr.White]

And how do you calculate that level of climbing performances? You are some expert at that? Is there any formula? Or you're just guessing. Cause for me too Froome isn't the best climber since 2012. In 2013 he was, but in other years he certainly wasn't.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re:

And how do you calculate that level of climbing performances? You are some expert at that? Is there any formula? Or you're just guessing. Cause for me too Froome isn't the best climber since 2012. In 2013 he was, but in other years he certainly wasn't.

There is no formula, which is why it is interesting to think about, as opposed to some trivial problem of computation. Inference under uncertainty.

What I mean is: Capable of the best climbing performance if things go right. Not necessarily whether they actually produced the best performance. For instance, last year probably saw Nibali producing the best climbing performance, but I think the best he is capable of if everything goes right (his actual performance last year) is still below the best Froome and Contador are capable of, and would have showed, had they not crashed at the Tour.

Basically, I'd like to know what would have transpired, had there been no *** ups, crashes, bad preparations etc. My conjecture, based on all the data I'm aware of, is Froome dropping everyone in the mountains but Contador not by much.