Teams & Riders Chris Froome Discussion Thread.

[Morbius]

Re Chris whining
Don't forget Michele accused Brad of outright lying. Either she made that up or she got the info from Chris.

 

[RownhamHill]

You quite clearly do not since all your sources are actually his gf.

FFS.

Look at what Wiggins said - 'best case' scenario he's in great shape and contention for leadership, but he might have to ride for 'someone' else if they're in better shape, which he explicitly says is 'fine'.

In response, Froome (not Michelle) issues a formal press statement, written in the first person, reiterating that he has been 'reassured' by the management he will have 'their full backing', and he expects the team to be selected 'with the strongest and most willing' riders there 'to support me' (for anyone who's a bit stupid and can't do nuance this is a direct dig at Wiggins, suggesting he shouldn't even get to ride). He also briefs journalists at national newspapers that he has spoken to Brailsford, and been reassured that he's the leader (again, for anyone stupid, when journalists write 'sources close to' that's code, it means the person themself has told me this, but wants to retain plausible deniability by not being quoted directly).

Here is a source, with the full statement quoted in full. Oh look, it's on this very site. And yeah, that link to the Telegraph already contains the sources close to reference.

And this happened, what ten days ago?

Good grief, we can have a legitimate debate about whether that behaviour constitutes whinging or not (or some other synonym as you see fit), or for that matter whether it was the 'right' thing for Froome to get involved in. But to start demanding sources is just a bit silly, isn't it?

 

[RownhamHill]

Strange, you wrote so much yet provided no source for Froome "whining".
Obviously you have nothing to contribute here. Welcome to my ignore list. Have a nice day.

Golly.

I'm sorry my contributions aren't worthy.

 

[RownhamHill]

She's has definitely been complaining, but I don't consider her complaining about something the same as him complaining about it. While they probably do share the same opinion on the Froome-Wiggins grudge, they are not the same person. Just because she is very vocal and keeps talking about it doesn't equate to him continuously whining about it RownhamHill claimed.

I don't think I said 'continuously' whining, and if I did I was fairly loose in my language, as I meant whining right now, so apologies to anyone I've offended (I really can't be bothered to go back and check what I wrote). In fact, let's just drop the whole use of the word 'whining' at all, as it's an unnecessary distraction in this conversation.

The point is this though. As Franklin points out, MC is a pretty fair proxy for Froome's feelings - didn't she say up thread that she's given up her career to act as his pa/organiser in a full time capacity, and that role obviously will include some aspect of media management - importantly in consultation with Froome himself (and please note I'm not demeaning that all, it's presumably a fairly full time job). So the idea that she's some loose cannon, and isn't acting as a conduit and a foil for Froome's feelings and agenda is just, frankly, naive.

So, if we take the 'noises' emanating from the Froome 'camp' in the last couple of weeks as being a reasonably fair reflection of Froome's feelings, then the questions are - are those feelings fair? And regardless of if they are or not, does expressing them now make any political/pr sense for Froome to further his agenda. In regard to the second question, my opinion (that maybe I expressed clumsily) is that I don't think he's done himself any favours in the last couple of weeks - even if you think it is fair for him to be narked off with Wiggins, I think he would have been best dealing with this with a wry smile, and a comment to the effect that 'Sky will obviously pick the rider they think most likely to be strongest, and I'm concentrating on making sure that rider will be me.' Or, better still, a smile, a shrug, a raised eyebrow and 'I'm just preparing for the Dauphine, I wish Brad well in the Giro'.

As it is, he looks insecure, he looks scared, and he looks like he's after a promise he's not in any position to demand at this specific moment in time (because it's, you know, the start of May, not July). In my opinion, yours may vary.

By the way, I couldn't care less which of them leads the team at the tour - I want Contador to win anyway!

 

[gooner]

Thats not hypocricy in the slightest.

What they wanted is irrelevant, its what they got that mattered.

Yeah they wanted a bigger role for Froome but they didnt get it. Since in the real world froome spent the entire race, when wiggins was leader, working for Wiggins then the fair outcome this year is that froome is the leader, wiggins works for him.

You win the Tour, you automatically deserve to defend it and no one in their right mind would not want to do that in that position. I'm not going to criticise no rider for his competitive edge and especially standing up for his right when he has earned it. We can talk about Froome's victories but Wiggins has sacrificed races for the Giro by not participating in races he won last year and so nothing suggest so far that his ability from back then is on the wane now. And if Wiggins wins the Giro it tops anything what Froome has done so far this year and even though I think he merits his own right to defend his Tour crown, if he was to do that it should only further the credence on his part to have the chance to achieve victory once again.

the only hypocrite is wiggins who last year said that a team can only have 1 leader (because he knew he was the leader), but now, funnily enough, has changed his opinion, and actually 2 leaders is perfectly fine.

Its almost exactly like Napoleon in Animal Farm, who's overall character really isnt all that different from wiggins.

1 leader good 2 leaders bad. 1 leader good 2 leaders bad. oink oink.

But then, when it suits him, 1 leader good, 2 leaders better. 1 leader good, 2 leaders better.

And like in the book, the sheep follow along blindly.

I said there was inconsistencies in Wiggins's argument(look at my post below) and you rightly point out his inconsistencies regarding his stance on team support. The statement that Froome released said you need total 100% support but Froome felt otherwise when it suited him on La Toussuire, if not why did he attack then and isolate Wiggins by taking Nibali and others with him. He was only interested in numero uno which suited him at the time himself. Frankly they are as bad as each other now with the bickering and I say let's play it out on the road. There wasn't even a debate on the leadership topic as Froome done little in his build up before the Tour but as Froome has delivered now when given the responsibility to lead, it righly brings up his own right to achieve victory. But circumstances are different from last year as you can't say the same for Wiggins's build up now like we did for Froome's back then as Wiggins has sacrificed races that potentially suit his characteristics to win as he was primarily targeting the Giro.

Now Wiggins has put himself in this corner now and has only himself to blame for it when he said last year his main focus was on the Giro and that Froome could win the Tour one day with this year's course possibly suiting him more. Wiggins now wants to race in his own right but recently said to Walsh in The Sunday Times that he never forgot what Froome done in the Pyrennes last year. There is a clear inconsistency in his argument here as the very problem he had with Froome back then, he himself wants to do now in July.

 

[Afrank]

The point is this though. As Franklin points out, MC is a pretty fair proxy for Froome's feelings - didn't she say up thread that she's given up her career to act as his pa/organiser in a full time capacity, and that role obviously will include some aspect of media management - importantly in consultation with Froome himself (and please note I'm not demeaning that all, it's presumably a fairly full time job). So the idea that she's some loose cannon, and isn't acting as a conduit and a foil for Froome's feelings and agenda is just, frankly, naive.

Unless Froome comes out and says she speaks for him; her words, that you posted earlier, are not his words. Sure it's likely that they agree on the situation, but IMO it's ridiculous to think that he is telling her to say these things like you seem to be suggesting he is.

So, if we take the 'noises' emanating from the Froome 'camp' in the last couple of weeks as being a reasonably fair reflection of Froome's feelings, then the questions are - are those feelings fair? And regardless of if they are or not, does expressing them now make any political/pr sense for Froome to further his agenda. In regard to the second question, my opinion (that maybe I expressed clumsily) is that I don't think he's done himself any favours in the last couple of weeks - even if you think it is fair for him to be narked off with Wiggins, I think he would have been best dealing with this with a wry smile, and a comment to the effect that 'Sky will obviously pick the rider they think most likely to be strongest, and I'm concentrating on making sure that rider will be me.' Or, better still, a smile, a shrug, a raised eyebrow and 'I'm just preparing for the Dauphine, I wish Brad well in the Giro'.

Well we don't really know how true a reflection of Froome's feelings her words are. All we can do is make the assumption that they are because the two are a couple. Froome himself, hasn't really said a lot. Earlier in the year when Wiggins was going back and forth between targeting the Giro and helping him in the Tour, or targeting the Tour; iirc the most he said was seeking to clarify which race he should focus on. And his recent comments, as I see them, are pretty much just him defending the leadership promised him against Wiggins also wanting that leadership.

 

[Jelantik]

Now Wiggins has put himself in this corner now and has only himself to blame for it when he said last year his main focus was on the Giro and that Froome could win the Tour one day with this year's course possibly suiting him more. Wiggins now wants to race in his own right but recently said to Walsh in The Sunday Times that he never forgot what Froome done in the Pyrennes last year. There is a clear inconsistency in his argument here as the very problem he had with Froome back then, he himself wants to do now in July.

Well maybe that's not inconsistency. It's the real truth of how wiggin feels. You know how you have to play nice for the media while in TDF for the team sake BS. But once the dust is settled, there's actually a real feeling. Take alook how Contador and Amstrong in 2009. They held their tongue until TDF was done. What I don't understand why wiggin said he wanted to target the Giro in the first place. Who knows maybe it's another Sky PR. Play nice with your team mate since we are a team. To me, it's kinda weird to have the defending champion saying that pufff, I'm not defending? Even if the parcours won't suit you, but at least you gotta try. Dunno, don't you think it's kinda a little disrespect to the event itself? The situation now got complicated, because I don't know every one who has the right mind would make the defending champs playing a second fiddle. At least give him the leadership and let the road decides. After all wiggin won TDF last year, and NOT Froome. If Froome could win, why won't he? The team orders? Well, that's his problem. Contador refused to play dead to fulfill Lance's ambition. I'm not wiggin's fan, but I think the guy is the defending champion. So he should be the team leader until the road says other wise.

And btw Froome's significant others is "a freaking PR nightmare" for Sky.

 

[Ripper]

Well maybe that's not inconsistency. It's the real truth of how wiggin feels. You know how you have to play nice for the media while in TDF for the team sake BS. But once the dust is settled, there's actually a real feeling. Take alook how Contador and Amstrong in 2009. They held their tongue until TDF was done. What I don't understand why wiggin said he wanted to target the Giro in the first place. Who knows maybe it's another Sky PR. Play nice with your team mate since we are a team. To me, it's kinda weird to have the defending champion saying that pufff, I'm not defending? Even if the parcours won't suit you, but at least you gotta try. Dunno, don't you think it's kinda a little disrespect to the event itself? The situation now got complicated, because I don't know every one who has the right mind would make the defending champs playing a second fiddle. At least give him the leadership and let the road decides. After all wiggin won TDF last year, and NOT Froome. If Froome could win, why won't he? The team orders? Well, that's his problem. Contador refused to play dead to fulfill Lance's ambition. I'm not wiggin's fan, but I think the guy is the defending champion. So he should be the team leader until the road says other wise.

And btw Froome's significant others is "a freaking PR nightmare" for Sky.

I clearly remember Jiggo commenting that he did not want to do an Evans and defend a race as there was everything to lose and nothing to gain (or something of that nature). Sounded like he had burnt himself out a bit. And he is a bit mental to boot

 

[Ripper]

Thats not hypocricy in the slightest.

What they wanted is irrelevant, its what they got that mattered.

Yeah they wanted a bigger role for Froome but they didnt get it. Since in the real world froome spent the entire race, when wiggins was leader, working for Wiggins then the fair outcome this year is that froome is the leader, wiggins works for him.

the only hypocrite is wiggins who last year said that a team can only have 1 leader (because he knew he was the leader), but now, funnily enough, has changed his opinion, and actually 2 leaders is perfectly fine.

Its almost exactly like Napoleon in Animal Farm, who's overall character really isnt all that different from wiggins.

1 leader good 2 leaders bad. 1 leader good 2 leaders bad. oink oink.

But then, when it suits him, 1 leader good, 2 leaders better. 1 leader good, 2 leaders better.

And like in the book, the sheep follow along blindly.

Spot on

 

[RHRH19861986]

Wiggins will have the Giro in his legs. Froome will have turned 28 when the Tour arrives, so just entered his peak age as GT rider.

Wiggins might have a slight advantage in stage 4´s ITT, but on first MTF, Ax-3-Domaines, Froome will attack just like Contador attacked in Verbier 2009.

Don´t forget Contador also in this year´s Tour. It´s not just about Wiggins and The Dog.

 

[McLovin]

Wiggins might have a slight advantage in stage 4´s ITT

Only if Team Sky will put a gap on Froome.

 

[thirteen]

Far less common, I'd say. It's very unusual, actually.

I wonder why.

Ryo's opinion on this is actually much more in tune with feminism than yours and thirteen's, Cound's.

Equating passionately defending your man like a fan girl with "speaking your mind." Tammy Wynette would be proud.

i am defending Michelle for what you all are were attacking her for.

that's not how i conduct myself, but i'm not her. and Chris obviously doesn't have an issue with it, so i found Ryo's opinion... eh, whatever. not worth it.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

i am defending Michelle for what you all are were attacking her for.

that's not how i conduct myself, but i'm not her. and Chris obviously doesn't have an issue with it, so i found Ryo's opinion... eh, whatever. not worth it.

like I said, if chris doesn't have an issue with that it says enough about him too. certainly no leader figure

 

[RownhamHill]

Unless Froome comes out and says she speaks for him; her words, that you posted earlier, are not his words. Sure it's likely that they agree on the situation, but IMO it's ridiculous to think that he is telling her to say these things like you seem to be suggesting he is.

These are the words that 'Froome' said in his press statement, from the CN story I've already linked to:

Froome bit back by issuing a personal statement.

“I have been reassured by the management at Team Sky that I have their full backing. At no time has the leadership of the Tour team been in question," it reads.

“There has been much speculation regarding the leadership for Team Sky at the Tour de France this year. I have made it clear that winning the Tour would be my main objective for 2013."

Froome claims that the strongest riders in the Team Sky squad will support him in his bid to win the Tour de France.

“Attempting to win the Tour de France, is a massive undertaking, and will take total commitment from each and every team member. The Tour team has yet to be selected but with the depth of talent that we have at Team Sky, I have no doubt that the strongest and most willing riders will be there to support me.”

If you don't think those words can be attributed to Chris Froome, then honestly I don't know what to say.

 

[JimmyFingers]

These are the words that 'Froome' said in his press statement, from the CN story I've already linked to:



If you don't think those words can be attributed to Chris Froome, then honestly I don't know what to say.

Well undoubtedly it was his lips moving.....

 

[RownhamHill]

What I don't understand why wiggin said he wanted to target the Giro in the first place. Who knows maybe it's another Sky PR. Play nice with your team mate since we are a team. To me, it's kinda weird to have the defending champion saying that pufff, I'm not defending? Even if the parcours won't suit you, but at least you gotta try. Dunno, don't you think it's kinda a little disrespect to the event itself? The situation now got complicated, because I don't know every one who has the right mind would make the defending champs playing a second fiddle.

This is the interesting thing to me. You can imagine a lot of different reasons. Maybe he was just jaded with the Tour and wanted a fresh challenge. Maybe he felt he 'owed' Froome Tour leadership? Maybe he was scared of the parcours/Contador? Maybe he really, really likes the Giro and the idea of having won it? Maybe he didn't think that targetting both races was possible, so he made a gut feeling about whichone to prioritise? Maybe (probably) some combination of all these factors rolled up into a feeling at the time.

And equally, why has he now changed his mind? I suspect his training has gone well, he's got his game head on for the Giro, and he's mentally built himself up to be 'invincible, tour champion, four time gold medalist, Brad', and in that frame of mind, hell yeah, of course he's going to go for the double. (Because I suspect that's how the psychology of being an elite athlete works.) Whatever reason, I think you're right that's just how he feels right now.

So for Froome, I think he'd do himself more favours if he just decided to suck that up and beat him on the road (either in pre-race testing, or in the Tour itself), just like he's got to beat everyone else in the race if he wants to win. And in any case, based on how the next two weeks goes Wiggins may not be being so keen to lead the tour team the following month in any case.

 

[RownhamHill]

Just seen this link in the other Froome/Wiggins thread. Graeme Obree has nailed this for me

Graeme Obree: Team Sky must let Bradley Wiggins and Chris Froome decide who is the best rider

The current rivalry between Sir Bradley Wiggins and Chris Froome takes me back to my own battles with Chris Boardman in the Nineties. Far from being something destructive, competition like that can only be a good thing. It is what sport is all about.

 

[CycloAndy]

Thats not hypocricy in the slightest.

What they wanted is irrelevant, its what they got that mattered.

Yeah they wanted a bigger role for Froome but they didnt get it. Since in the real world froome spent the entire race, when wiggins was leader, working for Wiggins then the fair outcome this year is that froome is the leader, wiggins works for him.

the only hypocrite is wiggins who last year said that a team can only have 1 leader (because he knew he was the leader), but now, funnily enough, has changed his opinion, and actually 2 leaders is perfectly fine.

Its almost exactly like Napoleon in Animal Farm, who's overall character really isnt all that different from wiggins.

1 leader good 2 leaders bad. 1 leader good 2 leaders bad. oink oink.

But then, when it suits him, 1 leader good, 2 leaders better. 1 leader good, 2 leaders better.

And like in the book, the sheep follow along blindly.

You're right Wiggins statements on the 2 leader thing are hypocritical but Froome/MC are being equally hypocritical as, even though Froome did support Wiggins in the TdF, they made such a big fuss about it they clearly thought having 2 leaders was ok when it suited them.

Personally I don't think Wiggins will be fit enough/good enough for this years Tdf so he is either being overly optimistic or he is just saying these things to wind Froome/MC up to get them back.

Neither Froome or Wiggins seem the most likeable, which is a great shame as Wiggins performance in 2009 was the reason I started watching cycling. I'm hoping Team Sky aren't about to implode, with this issue and the rumours of my other favourites Mick JaggUran and Henao leaving.

 

[Afrank]

These are the words that 'Froome' said in his press statement, from the CN story I've already linked to:



If you don't think those words can be attributed to Chris Froome, then honestly I don't know what to say.

Obviously I was talking about when you posted Michelle Cound's words as if they came directly from Froome.

 

[RownhamHill]

Obviously I was talking about when you posted Michelle Cound's words as if they came directly from Froome.

Obviously.

Just out of interest, could you point me to the place that I did that?

 

[Afrank]

Obviously.

Just out of interest, could you point me to the place that I did that?

Sure, first wwabit asks you this.

Hmm... would 3 stage race wins and 1 second place count as talking on the road?
Do you have any source for Froome whining about promises/reassurances/guarantees about leadership?

And you replied with this.

Do I have a source of Froome whining? Ermmm. What about his fiancee taking to twitter last Monday, saying she just hopes Sky sorts this out?

What about his fiancee putting out a press statement on his behalf the same day, claiming leadership, and implicitly questioning whether Wiggins should even start for not being a team player?

What about a 'source close to Froome' (ie either Chris himself, or Michelle) explaining to the national press he'd phoned Sky more than once to seek clarification of his leadership position?

Try this popular blog site for some more context

Not convinced? What about Chris Froome's fiancee, stating in this very thread, less than 24 hours ago:



Is that really your definition of smiling sweetly and STFU? Fair enough you may think he's entitled to say what he wants, you might even be right, but surely you don't really need a source for Froome acting like a bit of a primadonna over the last two weeks?

you were asked where Froome was whining and you posted Michelle's words. Passing off her words as if they came from him.

 

[thirteen]

like I said, if chris doesn't have an issue with that it says enough about him too. certainly no leader figure

absolutely fair enough.

 

[staubsauger]

I neither be able to speak for Michelle or Chris, but I've got the feeling, that some of you are not getting the point from theirs perceiption.

It's not mainly about having one or two leaders at the Tour de France now or back in 2012. And it's also not about to refuse Wiggins as acting champion the possibility to defend his title.

It's about the fact, that Bradley Wiggins forced Froome to be his slave at the Vuelta 2011, when Christopher was stronger. It's about that Froome was sacrifising his own chances for Brad more than once in last year's Tour, when his climbing was clearly stronger due to team tactics. As we all saw, it was already thundering back then. Comprehensible Froome was discordant about his repression. And I don't want to blame him or her for their actions against Wiggins that time. I enjoyed it in the past when guys like Ricco and Cunego were revolting against Gibo Simoni and the way he was answering.

If Wiggins wants to defend his title as acting champion, there's nothing wrong about it. He probable should be honoured to get that right. But as I already mentioned multiple times before: In that case Froome could be sitting in the middle of a corsa rosa right now, which's parcours seems to be tailor-made for Christopher to produce 3 weeks of pure domination. Now Wiggins is there because he wanted to do so. And now Bradley is trying to repress Froome's ambitions once again at the Tour. That's - after all what has happened already - not just disrespectful, but pretty much embarassing if not honorless. That's why (from my understanding) Michelle was calling him a lier. Although I can't speak for her, but that's what I understand from her feelings.

I absolutely support Froome's rebellion against Wiggins. And if his girlfriend Michelle is backing him and is giving him some aid and strengh to do so I'm pleased with it. That's what he/she has to do. It would be a shame if he would accept to play the second fidle once again. That's why guys like Ullrich and Klöden will always be remebered as cowardly losers, although they had great careers. I prefer guys like Simoni, Cunego, Di Luca, Ricco etc. which where fighting for their own right and didn't gave anything about playing nice.

Those guys were true characters. So are Chris & Michelle. In todays sport world there's nearly no space anymore for real, strong types. The rude boys we had back in the 90's in cycling, football or formula 1 are gone. Today's athlete's are always nice behaving, nice speaking, because they had a blanked PR-coaching to put down their image. Just look at Bradley for example, he's just so boring no matter if off or on the bike. That's why I absolutely appreciate and enjoy persons with true emotions and human actions like Chris & Michelle. It seems to be real and not out of the storybook of Rupert Murdoch or another Sky PR-manager. I just can't get enough of these enfant terribles. That's why I can't blame them, for not action, speaking or tweeting always nicely. It's just natural to be frustrated sometimes instead of being professional 24/7.

 

[MatParker117]

Froomey would love this Giro course if he was riding it at his absolute peak I think right now he's tow minutes up on Nibali.

 

[Malmeren]

Excuse me if this has already been discussed but how does Froome descend compared to ex. Alberto and Jrod?