Teams & Riders Chris Froome Discussion Thread.

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

Can't get myself to care enough to argue with fanboys, sorry, didn't know you were one of those, my bad.

Don't be a hypocrite. You are just as biased as these fanboys you talk about, only you hate Contador while they love him.

Pretty much this. The guy suddenly wants to feel 'superior' by saying I'm a just a desperate 'fanboy' wink wink.

Bringing facts has nothing to do with being a fanboy, just the way my posts are phrased make it seem so.
But this doesn't change that.

 

[dacooley]

the question who's the best climber since 2012 including is a bit about nothing as that simply doesn't have the only correct answer and everyone relies on its own personal metrics. the most reasonable solution is just accepting a different viewpoint without trying to bring over.

 

[BlurryVII]

And as usual, after babbling about nothing, serious sam doesn't know how to explain his made up random "conclusions" nor his personal "datas".

Then there's the other guy who thinks I'm biased but claims he "Never saw Contador do what Froome did during the Dauphine (in the 2014 season)"

Sure Froome winning once without any gap on Beal at the Dauphiné is equivalent to Contador dropping him 4 times on a GT.
I wonder who's biased here.

 

[harryh]

Let the Tour decide who is the best climber (assuming no one of the favorites will crash out).

 

[Jspear]

I don't think you can really say who is a better climber. Dauphine 2014 stage 2 was the best we saw imo. From that I think we can say (when they are both in tip top form) they are equal when it comes to climbing.

In a gt though there are always going to be different complications. IMO AC is superior in managing the majority of the typical issues. Recovery, or a simple crash ect. We know if Froome falls (even if it is nothing super major like the 2014 Dauphine) he has a complete meltdown. AC seems to be a little more resilient.

That said; in July, if they are both in super form I think they will be equal on the climbs. But the odds of them both having the "normal" little crashes are high and I think AC handles those situations better. I think Froome could easily slip from amazing form to poor form whereas I think it will take more to knock AC down. Froome is fragile so it doesn't really matter what his climbing is like. He has to hope for perfect luck which is a very hard thing to come by.

We can argue all day long about who is a better climber, but in the end it will most likely come down to who is smarter, tougher, recovers better, and of course whoever has better luck.

 

[Ryaguas]

Re: Re:

Froome has not the aceleration of Contador, but can put an strong pace for longer.

Froome may well be the better climber than the Contador of the last few years

Again, last few years = 2013. Good job.

Vuelta 12', Vuelta 14' and the whole 2014 season + AC's shape at the Tour say hi.

Is this a joke?

Vuelta -12 saw a subpar Froome. Drop in the Tour -12 Froome and he easily wins that race. Do you seriously debate that?

Vuelta 14 wasn't really a good indicator since both crashed at the Tour. Contador was better in the race but that does not say that he is the better climber.

The whole 2014 season?
Never saw Contador do what Froome did during the Dauphine (save his performance in the Dauphine and even then, Froome was the stronger one until his crash).


"AC's shape at the Tour" - Care to elaborate?

I'll tell you only this... Passo Lanciano...

 

[cycladianpirate]

Re: Re:

Can't get myself to care enough to argue with fanboys, sorry, didn't know you were one of those, my bad.

Don't be a hypocrite. You are just as biased as these fanboys you talk about, only you hate Contador while they love him.

Pretty much this. The guy suddenly wants to feel 'superior' by saying I'm a just a desperate 'fanboy' wink wink.

Bringing facts has nothing to do with being a fanboy, just the way my posts are phrased make it seem so.
But this doesn't change that.

Oh the Hyprocrisy of this statement!! Just beautiful.

 

[Walkman]

Re: Re:

Can't get myself to care enough to argue with fanboys, sorry, didn't know you were one of those, my bad.

Don't be a hypocrite. You are just as biased as these fanboys you talk about, only you hate Contador while they love him.

Pretty much this. The guy suddenly wants to feel 'superior' by saying I'm a just a desperate 'fanboy' wink wink.

Bringing facts has nothing to do with being a fanboy, just the way my posts are phrased make it seem so.
But this doesn't change that.

Oh the Hyprocrisy of this statement!! Just beautiful.

Where lies the hypocrisy? Seriously, please explain.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re:

I don't think you can really say who is a better climber. Dauphine 2014 stage 2 was the best we saw imo. From that I think we can say (when they are both in tip top form) they are equal when it comes to climbing.

I don't think Dauphine stage 2 is even that indicative. The accelerations were strong, but the overall pace was not. They were not in peak shape, and it's just not clear how far off their their best they were. I think we tend to interpret that stage as indicative now because we've already come to believe they are similarly strong and that is one of the few times (only time perhaps) they finished s.t. with everyone else dropped.

We're going to have to wait for the Tour and hope neither crashes or is off peak. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like this year's Tour is going to be very informative, with Contador less likely to reach his peak thanks to the Giro, and Froome's form not following the pattern from the previous years. Otoh, we'll have improved Nibali and improved Quintana at the Tour, so some questions are going to get answered.

 

[ray j willings]

Agree with Sam. No one this year has looked awesome. The only pointer I would make to good form is that Bertie's TT has been great and may have rode the Giro in 2nd gear. But in reality and on paper there was no real competition.
Froome was better today but not so good the other days. He recovered better from yesterday IMO. TJ had more to recover from.
Valverde seems to have gone off the boil after a super start to the season.
Quintana has been a mixed bag as well.
I forgot Purito was even in this years Dauphine .

I hope TJ recovers for tomorrow then we can add him as a possible podium contender. But the lack of new names really putting a marker down has been disappointing. Bardet ,Talansky still seem like climber's who can take a stage but not yet strong enough for overall.
I know Talansky won last year but that was because Bertie was watching Froome look at his stem.
Rolland has been very quiet.
We need some new faces.

 

[ILovecycling]

Re: Re:

[quote="ILovecycling

Nonsense, dopped Basso would have smoked them easily.

We will see, but I think you underestimate Quintana's climbing

I'm not underestimating it, all I'm saying is that Quintana ain't dropping them on pace. If you think so then you're deluded. Of course, it depends on the form, but if they're both in good form, it's not happening.

You should rearange your predictions for July because yours are completely off (as of AC, NQ and Froome - their form,abilities etc)

 

[TMP402]

Re:

Agree with Sam. No one this year has looked awesome. The only pointer I would make to good form is that Bertie's TT has been great and may have rode the Giro in 2nd gear. But in reality and on paper there was no real competition.
Froome was better today but not so good the other days. He recovered better from yesterday IMO. TJ had more to recover from.
Valverde seems to have gone off the boil after a super start to the season.
Quintana has been a mixed bag as well.
I forgot Purito was even in this years Dauphine .

I hope TJ recovers for tomorrow then we can add him as a possible podium contender. But the lack of new names really putting a marker down has been disappointing. Bardet ,Talansky still seem like climber's who can take a stage but not yet strong enough for overall.
I know Talansky won last year but that was because Bertie was watching Froome look at his stem.
Rolland has been very quiet.
We need some new faces.

Well Simon Yates is confirming once and for all he will be a GT contender. That's one newish name. Benoot finishing ahead of Froome on Stage 6 would appear to confirm he has potential to be a great all-rounder. That's another.

 

[Ataraxus]

Re: Re:

Froome and Quintana must be huge favourites over anyone else.

It was pretty weak in comparison with previous years imo.But very enjoyable!Quintana could be better (or not).

Congrats Froome, good race!

Quintana problem as i see it,is that he doesn't have the kick of Contador/Froome,so i'm really interested how he's gonna drop them if they are in good shape.

Good point! I pointed it out few times here in previous months and I still dont know the solution.On steep climbs its not a problem because there is not a aero advantage when you wheelsuck rider like Quintana who tries to drop you by constant pace, but on Tour this is a big problem (there arent steep climbs lol)

I dont know, he needs to tire them out by domestics and then do his own high pace to drop them, it will be harder for him but I think he can do it if he will be in better form than 2013.[/quote]

Dropping good shape AC and CF only on pace? Are you kidding?

It would take Robobasso 06' to do that and still. Quintana isn't anywhere near that level.[/quote]
Nonsense, dopped Basso would have smoked them easily.

We will see, but I think you underestimate Quintana's climbing [/quote]

PdB and Alpe d'Huez are climbs that can differentiate the very good from the best. If Quintana is just slightly better than them and needs to drop them, he can easily do so in these two stages.
I'm leaning more and more toward the idea that anyone who gaps Contador and Froome this year (even in one week races) shouldn't be underestimated for the near future. Even when Contador is not on peak shape he exhibits remarkable performances so anyone who tops those (Quintana,TJVG and Landa this year) shouldn't be discarded that easily.
TJVG gapped Froome in the Pra Loup, wasn't too far yesterday and is about to win the Dauphine. If he hasn't peaked too early he may beat at least one of the top guns this Tour. All he has to do is build a 2-3 minute gap in the first half of the Tour (which he easily can IMO) and pace himself in the mountains.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Agree with Sam. No one this year has looked awesome. The only pointer I would make to good form is that Bertie's TT has been great and may have rode the Giro in 2nd gear. But in reality and on paper there was no real competition.
Froome was better today but not so good the other days. He recovered better from yesterday IMO. TJ had more to recover from.
Valverde seems to have gone off the boil after a super start to the season.
Quintana has been a mixed bag as well.
I forgot Purito was even in this years Dauphine .

I hope TJ recovers for tomorrow then we can add him as a possible podium contender. But the lack of new names really putting a marker down has been disappointing. Bardet ,Talansky still seem like climber's who can take a stage but not yet strong enough for overall.
I know Talansky won last year but that was because Bertie was watching Froome look at his stem.
Rolland has been very quiet.
We need some new faces.

Well Simon Yates is confirming once and for all he will be a GT contender. That's one newish name. Benoot finishing ahead of Froome on Stage 6 would appear to confirm he has potential to be a great all-rounder. That's another.

Yes I agree. Yates was fantastic Friday, TJ would have gone with him if he could.
Early days for those guys and I hope in the next 2 years we see them develop into GT contenders.
Riders like Rolland etc never seem to get past being a stage winner.
Just do not have the ability to recover like the very best.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

[quote="ILovecycling

Nonsense, dopped Basso would have smoked them easily.

We will see, but I think you underestimate Quintana's climbing

I'm not underestimating it, all I'm saying is that Quintana ain't dropping them on pace. If you think so then you're deluded. Of course, it depends on the form, but if they're both in good form, it's not happening.

You should rearange your predictions for July because yours are completely off (as of AC, NQ and Froome - their form,abilities etc)

Oh, because you know the ultimate truth, right?

I've never posted and I don't have any predictions for the Tour, because I don't know what will be the form of certain riders. All I'm saying is that if AC is in great form, he wins the Tour. And yes, Quintana is not dropping him in that kind of form. More like the opposite.

 

[Ataraxus]

Re: Re:

I don't think you can really say who is a better climber. Dauphine 2014 stage 2 was the best we saw imo. From that I think we can say (when they are both in tip top form) they are equal when it comes to climbing.

I don't think Dauphine stage 2 is even that indicative. The accelerations were strong, but the overall pace was not. They were not in peak shape, and it's just not clear how far off their their best they were. I think we tend to interpret that stage as indicative now because we've already come to believe they are similarly strong and that is one of the few times (only time perhaps) they finished s.t. with everyone else dropped.

We're going to have to wait for the Tour and hope neither crashes or is off peak. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like this year's Tour is going to be very informative, with Contador less likely to reach his peak thanks to the Giro, and Froome's form not following the pattern from the previous years. Otoh, we'll have improved Nibali and improved Quintana at the Tour, so some questions are going to get answered.

You know there is a possibility that all this Froome-Contador peak performance debate will fade away after this Tour (Qunitana stamping his authority in the climbs). And all we'll be left with as the best comparison medium will be that second stage in last years Dauphine

 

[jilbiker]

Froome is not a natural climber, he is a mechanical robotic made climber. Which is a reason no one saw the great climbing potential in the early years and then all of a sudden in Sky he is up there. The Sky principle which he learnt was based on a calculated study of power generated by the great climbers and how long they are able to maintain the power. Next is determine the minimum power needed to beat the major climbers and how long to maintain the power to crush them. (his fascination with the Power meter)

Next, train as hard as possible to archieve these numbers, your body will adjust to it.

All well and good except the mechanical method like all things in this world will go with the law of diminishing returns. You cannot maintain that level and besides everyone has figured out their method. Skill will always beat mechanics especially when you add mechanics to skill. Andre agassi his early career was all skill and no results but when he started training hard, well we know the results. Samething Contador has done and we see the results.

So some thanks goes to Sky and Froome, same as Tiger who brought fitness and weight training to Golf, well look at McClory's results.

This is all we have from Froome wrt to climbing, it is was it is, he is not a natural climber but he has done well. Will it be enough to win another GT? I doubt it, the peloton has figured out Sky and Froome, and there are some natural climbers around, Qiuntana, Contador, Lander (?), the bigger question is are they as complete as Froome who also has time trial skill (although it also seems to be on the decline compared to 2012/2013) as well. Is TT skill on decline or are the natural climbers also upping their TT as well....

 

[Electress]

Re: Re:

Lol the British press:
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jun/12/vincenzo-nibali-leads-criterium-du-dauphine
Not much love shown there for CF
First they talk up Yates over Froome.
Second they focus on his sleeping.

Kenyans, Scots and Somalis just aren't very English, except when they are winning

Kenyans, Scots and Somalis aren't English, period.

You know there is a possibility that all this Froome-Contador peak performance debate will fade away after this Tour

This is what I long for. The day cannot come soon enough.

However, you all know it will never happen, right? For both sides of the "debate",it seems to me, top form is predicated on one rider being able to drop the other. So if one or other rider doesn't they can't be on top form. And so we take yet another spin on the roundabout.

 

[Taxus4a]

Re:

Froome is not a natural climber, he is a mechanical robotic made climber. Which is a reason no one saw the great climbing potential in the early years and then all of a sudden in Sky he is up there. The Sky principle which he learnt was based on a calculated study of power generated by the great climbers and how long they are able to maintain the power. Next is determine the minimum power needed to beat the major climbers and how long to maintain the power to crush them. (his fascination with the Power meter)

Next, train as hard as possible to archieve these numbers, your body will adjust to it.

All well and good except the mechanical method like all things in this world will go with the law of diminishing returns. You cannot maintain that level and besides everyone has figured out their method. Skill will always beat mechanics especially when you add mechanics to skill. Andre agassi his early career was all skill and no results but when he started training hard, well we know the results. Samething Contador has done and we see the results.

So some thanks goes to Sky and Froome, same as Tiger who brought fitness and weight training to Golf, well look at McClory's results.

This is all we have from Froome wrt to climbing, it is was it is, he is not a natural climber but he has done well. Will it be enough to win another GT? I doubt it, the peloton has figured out Sky and Froome, and there are some natural climbers around, Qiuntana, Contador, Lander (?), the bigger question is are they as complete as Froome who also has time trial skill (although it also seems to be on the decline compared to 2012/2013) as well. Is TT skill on decline or are the natural climbers also upping their TT as well....

It can put into discussion if Contador is a natural climber, but yes, for me he is,... but most of the big names winingTours in the last years, considering past and current era werent natural climbers: Indurain, Ullrich, Lance, Evans, Wiggo,... so, it is not necesary to win.

His ability to climb was there from the begining, he was close to his leader, Soler, in Mont Faron, something similar to Landa with Aru is the first stages of this Giro. Of course his mate and good friend Jhon Lee Augustyn showed more his potential to climb, as he was considering more talented for climbs, he was a natural climber, but Froome had more potential.

Froome just needed to learn to race in a peloton, he is still learning, he wasted too much energy positioning. As well he needed to cure his illness, that made him irregular.

Do you think Corti didnt saw a potential climber then? I saw as well in 2008, as I wroted in a forum.

Read:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-taking-great-strides

Corti didn't regret his choice. "This year, he had his ups and downs, but when he was good he was flying. I remember the moment he was there at the base of the [Tour's] Alpe d'Huez with the favourites – he did a great ride," he said.

The team manager looks forward to seeing his young talent develop. "He is strong in the time trial and on the climbs, in theory he is suited for stage races. He still has to improve; he is young." Froome agreed with his team manager's assessment: "The two strengths that I have are time trialling and climbing, and I prefer longer events – Grand Tours make sense. I obviously have a lot of work to do on my time trialling and climbing to reach that point."

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

Froome is not a natural climber, he is a mechanical robotic made climber. Which is a reason no one saw the great climbing potential in the early years and then all of a sudden in Sky he is up there. The Sky principle which he learnt was based on a calculated study of power generated by the great climbers and how long they are able to maintain the power. Next is determine the minimum power needed to beat the major climbers and how long to maintain the power to crush them. (his fascination with the Power meter)

Next, train as hard as possible to archieve these numbers, your body will adjust to it.

All well and good except the mechanical method like all things in this world will go with the law of diminishing returns. You cannot maintain that level and besides everyone has figured out their method. Skill will always beat mechanics especially when you add mechanics to skill. Andre agassi his early career was all skill and no results but when he started training hard, well we know the results. Samething Contador has done and we see the results.

So some thanks goes to Sky and Froome, same as Tiger who brought fitness and weight training to Golf, well look at McClory's results.

This is all we have from Froome wrt to climbing, it is was it is, he is not a natural climber but he has done well. Will it be enough to win another GT? I doubt it, the peloton has figured out Sky and Froome, and there are some natural climbers around, Qiuntana, Contador, Lander (?), the bigger question is are they as complete as Froome who also has time trial skill (although it also seems to be on the decline compared to 2012/2013) as well. Is TT skill on decline or are the natural climbers also upping their TT as well....

It would be difficult for Froome to change his style now. What looks ugly on the bike can still be effective. It was obvious that Nibali came into the Dauphine for training. Even Froome may not be at his best yet. Quintana will be fresh and hope to have his best climbing legs. The Tour looks to be a fascinating race this year. Contador being the only one to do the Giro won't have an easy time but you could also argue he is the toughest of the top four riders. Froome will also have Porte with him which usually makes a difference. I think Froome is a long way from finished and can still win GTs.

As for figuring out Sky, if Sky ride like they did yesterday, the only thing to figure out is how much time you will lose. There is nothing to figure out, there is no secret, it's just a matter of whether the others can keep up or not. A lot of natural climbers prefer the stop start attacks not the relentless pace and as we have seen, Sky can drop natural climbers as well. I don't think the style of riders stops them from winning, it's more to do with the psychology and how good their legs are and sometimes tactics. When Froome is in form, the only tactic Sky employ is to blow the race apart, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

 

[DBotero]

Re:

Froome is not a natural climber, he is a mechanical robotic made climber. Which is a reason no one saw the great climbing potential in the early years and then all of a sudden in Sky he is up there. The Sky principle which he learnt was based on a calculated study of power generated by the great climbers and how long they are able to maintain the power. Next is determine the minimum power needed to beat the major climbers and how long to maintain the power to crush them. (his fascination with the Power meter)

Next, train as hard as possible to archieve these numbers, your body will adjust to it.

All well and good except the mechanical method like all things in this world will go with the law of diminishing returns. You cannot maintain that level and besides everyone has figured out their method. Skill will always beat mechanics especially when you add mechanics to skill. Andre agassi his early career was all skill and no results but when he started training hard, well we know the results. Samething Contador has done and we see the results.

So some thanks goes to Sky and Froome, same as Tiger who brought fitness and weight training to Golf, well look at McClory's results.

This is all we have from Froome wrt to climbing, it is was it is, he is not a natural climber but he has done well. Will it be enough to win another GT? I doubt it, the peloton has figured out Sky and Froome, and there are some natural climbers around, Qiuntana, Contador, Lander (?), the bigger question is are they as complete as Froome who also has time trial skill (although it also seems to be on the decline compared to 2012/2013) as well. Is TT skill on decline or are the natural climbers also upping their TT as well....

Lol,that's a new one,i think they should give you a job on the young cyclist development,you seems to have the necessary talents for that job.If Sky are so great i'm wondering why they didn't apply their magic to Stannard/G./Kennaugh they surely would have looked better as GT contenders for the British public,but i suppose they just don't like to train hard,wash their hands,use their own pillow etc.Too bad i'm old Sky principle would have made me a TDF winner.That"looking at stem"was an internet joke,but i suppose some people are less informed.
Well i think for a"roleur",Froome palmares looks really good,he should carry on with his"ugly style"it seems to work,those poor natural climbers must be really shocked to get beaten sometimes by this mechanical anomaly.
BTW who the *** is Lander

 

[ILovecycling]

Re: Re:

[quote="ILovecycling

Nonsense, dopped Basso would have smoked them easily.

We will see, but I think you underestimate Quintana's climbing

I'm not underestimating it, all I'm saying is that Quintana ain't dropping them on pace. If you think so then you're deluded. Of course, it depends on the form, but if they're both in good form, it's not happening.

You should rearange your predictions for July because yours are completely off (as of AC, NQ and Froome - their form,abilities etc)

Oh, because you know the ultimate truth, right?

I've never posted and I don't have any predictions for the Tour, because I don't know what will be the form of certain riders. All I'm saying is that if AC is in great form, he wins the Tour. And yes, Quintana is not dropping him in that kind of form. More like the opposite.

Because Im not freakin blind, that little guy is a special climber (with willpower of Froome or Contador) and if you dont see it then its so ridiculous like you saying AC is in form.Like WTF? How the .... is he in form?

Of course I would like to see that, but I dont believe it at all, he won't hit a peak form with Giro in his legs imo that would be crazy.I think he can win the Tour but aka The Great One style.That means with great tactics + team + panache, not with better climbing than Quintana or Froome.

 

[ILovecycling]

Re: Re:

PdB and Alpe d'Huez are climbs that can differentiate the very good from the best. If Quintana is just slightly better than them and needs to drop them, he can easily do so in these two stages.
I'm leaning more and more toward the idea that anyone who gaps Contador and Froome this year (even in one week races) shouldn't be underestimated for the near future. Even when Contador is not on peak shape he exhibits remarkable performances so anyone who tops those (Quintana,TJVG and Landa this year) shouldn't be discarded that easily.
TJVG gapped Froome in the Pra Loup, wasn't too far yesterday and is about to win the Dauphine. If he hasn't peaked too early he may beat at least one of the top guns this Tour. All he has to do is build a 2-3 minute gap in the first half of the Tour (which he easily can IMO) and pace himself in the mountains.

As for TJ, its possible he will be a factor, but imho he has lot to prove.His recovery during hard 3 weeks of climbing is unknown (2012 was *** route).And also his form curve.If he will improve from dauphine and not fade in 3rd week than it can be a solid result! But like I said, I dont give it such a chance.


Sorry for spaming froome thread, but this is a interesting discussion.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I know not why Velasco's fan keeps on polluting other riders thread. stop spreading your dirties.

 

[Fernandez]

This guy is the ugliest thing you can find up on a bycicle.