Teams & Riders Chris Froome Discussion Thread.

[silvergrenade]

Re: Re:

You are the one who shoves the Froome hate wherever you go..
Meh...
But yeah, think what you want to.
I, for one, would want Contador to have a great tour....
I dont think you'd ever say that for Froome.

You want him to have a great Tour - yes, you wouldn't mind if he came 2nd to Froome.
I wouldn't mind if Froome came 2nd to Contador or Aru. There's your answer.
I am not anti-Froome, I am pro-my favorites. Unfortunately Froome is often in the way of success for my favorites but what it comes down to is that I focus on what my favorites do and couldn't care less about Froome.

I wouldnt mind if Froome comes second to Contador.
Froome came second to Contador at the 2014 Vuelta and it was a great Vuelta.
I tip my hat to Contador. Chapeau.
The problem is that you would never be willing to do the same for Froome when he wins against Contador and will try to justify his 10000000000th excuse of not winning.

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

If Froome were to do the Double this year, what would be his rank in the pantheon of Grand Tour riders? There'd be absolutely no question he'd be the best of any currently active riders, but what about his rank amongst all time legends?

With rankings like that you also have to take the strenght of the riders teams in consideration. How much of these GT wins is solely down to him being better than his competitors and how much because of him being the team leader of by far the strongest team in the last 7 years? For example, personally i'm not convinced that Froome would have won the 2015 TDF if he was not riding for Sky.

To claim that Froome (If he does this years TDF/Vuelta double) is a better pound-for-pound GT rider than the likes of Nibali, Contador and Nairo is one difficult to back up with hard facts. While one of the 3 might be riding a better GT than Froome and be the best of the GT contenders he could still lose out on the GC due to inferior teammates while Froome can still win a GT while not being the best rider in that particular GT thanks due to having the best support.

Its not only the total GT victories and numbers that count.

Are you delusional?
I am going to leave Contador out of the discussion because I can see people favoring him even if his doping ban sort of disqualifies him IMHO.

Froome is far superior to Nibali. He is a better climber, a better TT:er and better on Mur de Huy type finishes. Since 2011, Nibali has never beaten Froome in any GT save 2014 when Froome crashed out.

Nibali has four GTs:
2010 Vuelta
2013 Giro
2014 Tour
2016 Giro

In 2010, race leader Igor Anton crashed out.
In 2014, both Froome and Contador crashed out.
In 2016, race leader Steven Kruijswijk crashed and lost significant amount of time.


A for Quintana, Froome it clearly the better TT:er. As for who is the better climber, it's hard to say I would argue. Froome was better in 2013 Tour. The 2015 Tour was pretty equal, Froome smashing Quintana early and Quintana returning the favor on the Alpe. Last year, Froome was better in the Tour, Quintana was better in the Vuelta. Overall I would say peak Froome > peak Quintana but Quintana has perhaps better consistency.

Quintana has two GTs:

2014 Giro
2016 Vuelta

In the 2014 Giro, Quintana raced passed a red flag and won took 4 minutes. I think he would have won anyway but there is no denying that he benefitted greatly from that stage. He was hardly dominating the race up to that point.

Froome has beaten both numerous times and with his three Tour titles he is superior to Quintana and Nibali, both on paper and on the road. And I think most would agree.

Big mistake my friend, they don't deal with facts in here

The real fact is that Nibali won 4 GT's (all three included), and all that talk about how he won them is pure speculation. That's a fact!

 

[tretiak]

Re: Re:

The Giro is a race for Italians and for those not good enough or too chicken to win a Tour.

Sir Bradley Wiggins says Hellloooo!

Will we ever see Froome in a snowy climb in The Giro? The weather factor doesn't suite him at all.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Contador has in many interviews said that he prefers the Tour over any other race...
The man is crazy about winning the Tour.
He's kept his dog's name as Tour.
He's forgone his retirement to try and win the Tour.

That's not true at all. He has said many times that the Tour is the most important race, but the Giro is where his heart is.
He got that dog in 2008 when he was probably still starstruck having won the Tour. And by the way he also has a dog named Etna and one named Gorla after an important Spanish U23 race.
As you may have heard he has decided to extend his career by another year to target the Giro in 2018 and originally he even wanted to retire after it, but Trek didn't agree.

 

[Blanco]

Re:

There has been a clear line of succession of the top GT riders and it has always been the person winning three or more Tours.

Bobet-Anquetil-Merckx-Hinault-LeMond-Indurain-Armstrong*-Contador*-Froome. I doubt the next one will be Quintana.

Who was better - Contador or Froome - will have to wait until they've both retired. My guess is it will be Froome.


(*Officially haven't won three, of course)

Bartali? Coppi?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

The problem is that you would never be willing to do the same for Froome when he wins against Contador and will try to justify his 10000000000th excuse of not winning.

Who the hell cares about excuses. It doesn't change who won.
You're right, I can't be happy when Froome beats Contador and I don't believe for a second that you'd be happy to see Contador beat Froome.

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

The Giro is a race for Italians and for those not good enough or too chicken to win a Tour.

The Giro is a race for those who have a passion for our sport and aren't just mindless robots. Any rider who's raced both the Giro and Tour prefers the Giro. You should know that.

In the last 50 years, I can only think of one occasion when the top rider of the time voluntarily missed the Tour - Merckx in 1973. And I'm not sure how voluntary that was.
Some Italians have prioritised the Giro, but no-one else top class. The Tour is the biggest prize by some margin. It's the race the whole world knows.

 

[Hayabusa]

Don't see why so much focus is on discussing Contador in the Froome thread, doesn't he have his own thread? The guy hasn't been the top GT rider for 5 years....

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

There has been a clear line of succession of the top GT riders and it has always been the person winning three or more Tours.

Bobet-Anquetil-Merckx-Hinault-LeMond-Indurain-Armstrong*-Contador*-Froome. I doubt the next one will be Quintana.

Who was better - Contador or Froome - will have to wait until they've both retired. My guess is it will be Froome.


(*Officially haven't won three, of course)

Bartali? Coppi?

Sure, but too far back. To me they almost belong to a different sport. I'd almost discount anything before Merckx as being impossible to compare to now.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

The Giro is a race for Italians and for those not good enough or too chicken to win a Tour.

The Giro is a race for those who have a passion for our sport and aren't just mindless robots. Any rider who's raced both the Giro and Tour prefers the Giro. You should know that.

Bla bla bla, spare me this romanticism. Froome is a human being, this mindless robot thing is something you create in your head. I stand by what I said.
And I never said the Tour is more fun to ride, that's not my point.

I didn't mention Froome. Anyone with a heart for the sport should target the Giro at one point. Those who don't are mindless robots because they don't have a heart for the sport.

couldn't care less about Froome.

That's not the same as wanting him to do great, right? Not that I believe a word of what silvergrenade says.

I don't want him to beat my favorites. Whether he finishes just behind them or outside the top 100, IDC. So for all I care he can finish 2nd behind Contador or Aru. That's about as much wanting him to do great as silvergrenade wants Contador to do great, I believe. I don't believe for a second he'll lose sleep over it if Contador finishes in 8th place 12 minutes down. Or perhaps that's 'great' for him, in the eyes of a Froome fanboy :lol:

 

[Walkman]

Re: Re:

If Froome were to do the Double this year, what would be his rank in the pantheon of Grand Tour riders? There'd be absolutely no question he'd be the best of any currently active riders, but what about his rank amongst all time legends?

With rankings like that you also have to take the strenght of the riders teams in consideration. How much of these GT wins is solely down to him being better than his competitors and how much because of him being the team leader of by far the strongest team in the last 7 years? For example, personally i'm not convinced that Froome would have won the 2015 TDF if he was not riding for Sky.

To claim that Froome (If he does this years TDF/Vuelta double) is a better pound-for-pound GT rider than the likes of Nibali, Contador and Nairo is one difficult to back up with hard facts. While one of the 3 might be riding a better GT than Froome and be the best of the GT contenders he could still lose out on the GC due to inferior teammates while Froome can still win a GT while not being the best rider in that particular GT thanks due to having the best support.

Its not only the total GT victories and numbers that count.

Are you delusional?
I am going to leave Contador out of the discussion because I can see people favoring him even if his doping ban sort of disqualifies him IMHO.

Froome is far superior to Nibali. He is a better climber, a better TT:er and better on Mur de Huy type finishes. Since 2011, Nibali has never beaten Froome in any GT save 2014 when Froome crashed out.

Nibali has four GTs:
2010 Vuelta
2013 Giro
2014 Tour
2016 Giro

In 2010, race leader Igor Anton crashed out.
In 2014, both Froome and Contador crashed out.
In 2016, race leader Steven Kruijswijk crashed and lost significant amount of time.


A for Quintana, Froome it clearly the better TT:er. As for who is the better climber, it's hard to say I would argue. Froome was better in 2013 Tour. The 2015 Tour was pretty equal, Froome smashing Quintana early and Quintana returning the favor on the Alpe. Last year, Froome was better in the Tour, Quintana was better in the Vuelta. Overall I would say peak Froome > peak Quintana but Quintana has perhaps better consistency.

Quintana has two GTs:

2014 Giro
2016 Vuelta

In the 2014 Giro, Quintana raced passed a red flag and won took 4 minutes. I think he would have won anyway but there is no denying that he benefitted greatly from that stage. He was hardly dominating the race up to that point.

Froome has beaten both numerous times and with his three Tour titles he is superior to Quintana and Nibali, both on paper and on the road. And I think most would agree.

Big mistake my friend, they don't deal with facts in here

The real fact is that Nibali won 4 GT's (all three included), and all that talk about how he won them is pure speculation. That's a fact!

No, there is no speculation. I was stating facts.
Had I said that he won sole because of those events, that would have been speculation.
You should learn the definition of facts.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Don't see why so much focus is on discussing Contador in the Froome thread, doesn't he have his own thread? The guy hasn't been the top GT rider for 5 years....

now you know what we feel like when Froome fanbots come to the Contador thread to annoy and troll.

 

[Hayabusa]

Re: Re:

Don't see why so much focus is on discussing Contador in the Froome thread, doesn't he have his own thread? The guy hasn't been the top GT rider for 5 years....

now you know what we feel like when Froome fanbots come to the Contador thread to annoy and troll.

So you accept that you came here to troll then?

 

[Walkman]

Re: Re:

The question is not who is now the best GT rider. If we use that logic Froome is better than Merckx The question is who has the best GT palmares. And the facts are:
Froome 3 TDF, 0 Giro, 0 Vuelta
Contador 2 (3) TDF, 2 (3) Giro, 3 Vuelta
Nibali 1 TDF, 2 Giro, 1 Vuelta
Quintana 0 TDF, 1 Giro, 1 Vuelta

Them's the facts. Can't argue with them, however much Froomie fanboys would like to.

Yes, that is exactly the question we are discussion, as evidenced by his statement, which i bolded to highlight. Maybe read the thread next time?

To claim that Froome (If he does this years TDF/Vuelta double) is a better pound-for-pound GT rider than the likes of Nibali, Contador and Nairo is one difficult to back up with hard facts.

Also, I clearly made a point to discuss the Nibali-Quintana-Froome comparison and excluding Contador, so there is no need for you to bring him into this side-discussion. And why do you even list the 2010 Tour and the 2011 Giro? The guy was caught doping in 2010 and should not have been allowed in the 2011 Giro if no for him being Spanish (yes, I did just make an not so subtle point about Spain being corrupt). And in either case, he was stripped of that title so why would you even bring it up?

Maybe you should read the thread again... the discussion did not start from your statements. It started from SeriousSam claiming Froome will "for sure" be best GT rider of history over any current active riders.

You are right, misread SeriousSams initial post.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Don't see why so much focus is on discussing Contador in the Froome thread, doesn't he have his own thread? The guy hasn't been the top GT rider for 5 years....

now you know what we feel like when Froome fanbots come to the Contador thread to annoy and troll.

So you accept that you came here to troll then?

that's not what I wrote
You don't think Contador should be discussed when there's a discussion about where Froome ranks compared to the other still active GT stars?
That's why I posted here. Not my fault fanbots then started derailing the discussion with subjective claims.

 

[Hayabusa]

Re: Re:

Don't see why so much focus is on discussing Contador in the Froome thread, doesn't he have his own thread? The guy hasn't been the top GT rider for 5 years....

now you know what we feel like when Froome fanbots come to the Contador thread to annoy and troll.

So you accept that you came here to troll then?

that's not what I wrote
You don't think Contador should be discussed when there's a discussion about where Froome ranks compared to the other still active GT stars?
That's why I posted here. Not my fault fanbots then started derailing the discussion with subjective claims.

Contador's not an active GT star. He's a former GT star that happens to be active. He'll never win another GT and isn't worth discussing in the realms of potential winner.

Porte, Quintana, Nibali, Dumoulin and Aru are examples of riders that are worth discussing.

 

[Angliru]

Re:

Yes, that was the statement that started this discussion.
This generation

This "generation" and "all active riders" is not the same. I believe the original discussion question plainly stated "all active riders" or something to that effect. Contador career is split between Froome's generation (or what likely is conveniently when Froome came to prominence) and the one before it.

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

The Giro is a race for Italians and for those not good enough or too chicken to win a Tour.

The Giro is a race for those who have a passion for our sport and aren't just mindless robots. Any rider who's raced both the Giro and Tour prefers the Giro. You should know that.

Bla bla bla, spare me this romanticism. Froome is a human being, this mindless robot thing is something you create in your head. I stand by what I said.
And I never said the Tour is more fun to ride, that's not my point.

I didn't mention Froome. Anyone with a heart for the sport should target the Giro at one point. Those who don't are mindless robots because they don't have a heart for the sport.

No you didn't, and you didn't have him in mind at all.

If he doesn't have a heart for the sport, that makes him a heartless robot, not a mindless robot. Anyway, he has unfinished business with the Vuelta, can't blame him for wanting to sort that out first. Maybe he will give the Giro a shot at some point.
And maybe it hasn't got anything to do with having a heart for the sport, but more with a resentment for whiny Giromantics, by far the most annoying kind of cyclingfan on the planet? OK, maybe not, he doesn't strike me as that kind of person. But I could sympathize with that.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Don't see why so much focus is on discussing Contador in the Froome thread, doesn't he have his own thread? The guy hasn't been the top GT rider for 5 years....

now you know what we feel like when Froome fanbots come to the Contador thread to annoy and troll.

So you accept that you came here to troll then?

that's not what I wrote
You don't think Contador should be discussed when there's a discussion about where Froome ranks compared to the other still active GT stars?
That's why I posted here. Not my fault fanbots then started derailing the discussion with subjective claims.

Contador's not an active GT star. He's a former GT star that happens to be active. He'll never win another GT and isn't worth discussing in the realms of potential winner.

Porte, Quintana, Nibali, Dumoulin and Aru are examples of riders that are worth discussing.

Okay, let me rephrase. This is not a discussion about potential GT winners, it's a discussion about where Froome ranks compared to other active riders who have won multiple GTs.

More clear now?

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

[quote="Walkman


No, there is no speculation. I was stating facts.
Had I said that he won sole because of those events, that would have been speculation.
You should learn the definition of facts.[/quote]

So why are you mentioning those "facts" then? I mean those about who crashed? For what is that important?

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

Yes, that was the statement that started this discussion.
This generation

This "generation" and "all active riders" is not the same. I believe the original discussion question plainly stated "all active riders" or something to that effect. Contador career is split between Froome's generation (or what likely is conveniently when Froome came to prominence) and the one before it.

It started with all active riders. Though indeed their peaks were clearly different time, I have hard times to say riders with only 2,5 years age difference are from different "generation".

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

And maybe it hasn't got anything to do with having a heart for the sport, but more with a resentment for whiny Giromantics, by far the most annoying kind of cyclingfan on the planet? OK, maybe not, he doesn't strike me as that kind of person. But I could sympathize with that.

You are allowed your opinion but please then also consider that to many cycling fans Tour de France fanboys are by far the most annoying fans. It doesn't go one way.

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

Don't see why so much focus is on discussing Contador in the Froome thread, doesn't he have his own thread? The guy hasn't been the top GT rider for 5 years....

now you know what we feel like when Froome fanbots come to the Contador thread to annoy and troll.

So you accept that you came here to troll then?

that's not what I wrote
You don't think Contador should be discussed when there's a discussion about where Froome ranks compared to the other still active GT stars?
That's why I posted here. Not my fault fanbots then started derailing the discussion with subjective claims.

Contador's not an active GT star. He's a former GT star that happens to be active. He'll never win another GT and isn't worth discussing in the realms of potential winner.

Porte, Quintana, Nibali, Dumoulin and Aru are examples of riders that are worth discussing.

:lol:

 

[Hayabusa]

Re: Re:

More clear now?

1. Froome
2. Contador
3. Nibali
4. Quintana
5. Aru

That's the order I recognise. Contador behind Froome due to winning less of the number one GT and for other matters that cannot be discussed.

Of the last 5 years:

1. Froome
2. Nibali
3. Quintana
4. Contador
5. Aru

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

And maybe it hasn't got anything to do with having a heart for the sport, but more with a resentment for whiny Giromantics, by far the most annoying kind of cyclingfan on the planet? OK, maybe not, he doesn't strike me as that kind of person. But I could sympathize with that.

You are allowed your opinion but please then also consider that to many cycling fans Tour de France fanboys are by far the most annoying fans. It doesn't go one way.

And with the least knowledge about cycling!