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Chris Horner on the Nevada City race.

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Mar 20, 2009
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jackhammer111 said:
i guess you didn't get it... the safety issue... they went early to put the danger, and it is real danger in a crit, behind them.

you do know that's not normal crit strategy right?
I guess you didn't get my comment... the hill on the back side is steep enough to get rid of the punters without a much effort. Anyway, saying they "went early" is ludicrous. They just upped the tempo. You've still got to deal with the "dangerous" bike handlers when you lap them.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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Nevada City results

Having done that crit and raced with ProTour level climbers...Sastre and Schleck wouldn't have been on the race radar. That would be the only relevant comparison to Lance and Nevada City. The guy did a race and got a result and, unlike the European criterium season; the amateurs and US pros don't sell races. I'm not a Lance fan but bashing the guy for being in a race seems like it plays into the "publicity Machine" or whatever other Machiavellian
consipracy you embrace.
 
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BigBoat said:
Just because theirs not on a top Euro team doesnt mean their not very very fast... There's lots of talented riders that were jacked for that race and some very talented riders that are stronger than lance or Horner if they were clean... seriously.

Just because somebody is a cat 1 rider or not a top pro doesnt mean they couldnt be if they wanted to be.

The reason Lance looked so strong is because he is about to win the TDF... Or get a very good position.


I realize this is your gig, but you are stating facts that aren't.

You cannot possibly know who is on "dope" or not, nor can you know how one would perform if they were not on this unverifiable "doping program".

My worldview is this; I try to believe as many true things as possible, while trying to not believe as many untrue things as I can.

I base this on what the evidence presents.

What evidence is there that all of the top riders are all doped to some degree?

What evidence is there that some (most?) of them would perform poorly if they weren't on this undetectable dope?
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Juan Speeder said:
I realize this is your gig, but you are stating facts that aren't.

You cannot possibly know who is on "dope" or not, nor can you know how one would perform if they were not on this unverifiable "doping program".

My worldview is this; I try to believe as many true things as possible, while trying to not believe as many untrue things as I can.

I base this on what the evidence presents.

What evidence is there that all of the top riders are all doped to some degree?

What evidence is there that some (most?) of them would perform poorly if they weren't on this undetectable dope?

Speeder I was talking about the Nevada race... There were some good riders in that race and it wasnt slow... Lance had a jacked crit and it was due to blood doping with his own blood which IS undetectable. Maynes stayed with them and there were other good riders in that race on epo. EPO is still king in non- OCC tested endurance athletes. Many a rider were clean for that race. There are LOTS of talented (clean) riders that can get higher than Lance could clean. Not less than a few amateurs that do!

What evidence that all top riders are doped? Frequent never ending positives year after year (for epo and blood doping) the fact that being jacked on epo increases your ride to exhaustion duration by 50-100%... And raises your FTP (flat out 60 minute time trial watts) by 12-30% depending on how high you jack your crit (red cell percentage of blood volume)... Do you think a talented clean Pro could race other talents that have 25% more horsepower? NO WAY!

Think of it like this... Drafting in teh middle of the train saves you about 35%...Maybe 40% at 30 mph average. But as soon as you get a decent climb of just 5% now your going below 20 mph and there's the draft becoming less and less...pretty soon you'll be dropped by the whole pack (who all have talent and are all jacked)... And there is a timecut on these TDF stages. 15%.. maybe its only 10% on an easier stage. Who knows.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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BigBoat said:
Speeder I was talking about the Nevada race... There were some good riders in that race and it wasnt slow... Lance had a jacked crit and it was due to blood doping with his own blood which IS undetectable. Maynes stayed with them and there were other good riders in that race on epo. EPO is still king in non- OCC tested endurance athletes. Many a rider were clean for that race. There are LOTS of talented (clean) riders that can get higher than Lance could clean. Not less than a few amateurs that do!

What evidence that all top riders are doped? Frequent never ending positives year after year (for epo and blood doping) the fact that being jacked on epo increases your ride to exhaustion duration by 50-100%... And raises your FTP (flat out 60 minute time trial watts) by 12-30% depending on how high you jack your crit (red cell percentage of blood volume)... Do you think a talented clean Pro could race other talents that have 25% more horsepower? NO WAY!

Think of it like this... Drafting in teh middle of the train saves you about 35%...Maybe 40% at 30 mph average. But as soon as you get a decent climb of just 5% now your going below 20 mph and there's the draft becoming less and less...pretty soon you'll be dropped by the whole pack (who all have talent and are all jacked)... And there is a timecut on these TDF stages. 15%.. maybe its only 10% on an easier stage. Who knows.

It's easy to throw stats around and baffle people with bull****. Since I'm new here, I have to ask: what do you know that gives you the right to proclaim your opinions and suppositions as being fact?

Since Lance is the most tested sportsman in history (fact) and since he has never been proven (fact) to have doped, where do you get off stating as if it were a fact that you know that he's doped now?
 
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BigBoat said:
Speeder I was talking about the Nevada race... There were some good riders in that race and it wasnt slow... Lance had a jacked crit and it was due to blood doping with his own blood which IS undetectable. Maynes stayed with them and there were other good riders in that race on epo. EPO is still king in non- OCC tested endurance athletes. Many a rider were clean for that race. There are LOTS of talented (clean) riders that can get higher than Lance could clean. Not less than a few amateurs that do!

What evidence that all top riders are doped? Frequent never ending positives year after year (for epo and blood doping) the fact that being jacked on epo increases your ride to exhaustion duration by 50-100%... And raises your FTP (flat out 60 minute time trial watts) by 12-30% depending on how high you jack your crit (red cell percentage of blood volume)... Do you think a talented clean Pro could race other talents that have 25% more horsepower? NO WAY!

Think of it like this... Drafting in teh middle of the train saves you about 35%...Maybe 40% at 30 mph average. But as soon as you get a decent climb of just 5% now your going below 20 mph and there's the draft becoming less and less...pretty soon you'll be dropped by the whole pack (who all have talent and are all jacked)... And there is a timecut on these TDF stages. 15%.. maybe its only 10% on an easier stage. Who knows.

I asked for evidence not speculation.

Riders testing positive is evidence.

I'll ask a second time; What evidence do you have that all of the top riders are doping?
 
Amsterhammer said:
It's easy to throw stats around and baffle people with bull****. Since I'm new here, I have to ask: what do you know that gives you the right to proclaim your opinions and suppositions as being fact?

Since Lance is the most tested sportsman in history (fact) and since he has never been proven (fact) to have doped, where do you get off stating as if it were a fact that you know that he's doped now?

Armstrong had artificial EPO in six of his urine samples. There is incontravertible proof that he doped.

Armstrong's claim of being the most tested athlete in history is propaganda and has no basis in fact.
 
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grimpeur said:
I guess you didn't get my comment... the hill on the back side is steep enough to get rid of the punters without a much effort. Anyway, saying they "went early" is ludicrous. They just upped the tempo. You've still got to deal with the "dangerous" bike handlers when you lap them.

""Lance said that we needed to go on the second or third lap," said Leipheimer. "I said 'you're crazy we can't do that', but that's what worked out."

the word is go before they did it.

the word is went after they did it.

ludicrous? making a big deal out of "went early"

are you a little cranky today?
 
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BroDeal said:
Armstrong had artificial EPO in six of his urine samples. There is incontravertible proof that he doped.

Armstrong's claim of being the most tested athlete in history is propaganda and has no basis in fact.

Then he must've gotten a 2 year suspension.

I missed that.

Who is more tested?
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Juan Speeder said:
I asked for evidence not speculation.

Riders testing positive is evidence.

I'll ask a second time; What evidence do you have that all of the top riders are doping?

As I said... Going from a hematocrit of 40-44% to 50% will give most a 12% boost in sustainable power. All the way to 59% will give many over 20%... Maybe 30%. Thats like going from 350 watts to 435 for your sustainable power output... in a very good responder Read the sports literature on epo/ blood doping speeder. :>

But thats not all. Repeatability of hard efforts during a Road Race or Crit (attacking on and off) ability shoots through the roof. There's no WAY riders in 20-50 places ( the 5 bio passport positives) are loosing to clean riders in Grand Tours...no way.

There's been guys doing the TDF totally clean out of nervousness...but now that doctors and managers have the bio-pass figured out its just fine. Many have high crits on Dynepo...Many more blood doping with their frozen packed cells.
 
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BigBoat said:
As I said... Going from a hematocrit of 40-44% to 50% will give most a 12% boost in sustainable power. All the way to 59% will give many over 20%... Maybe 30%. Thats like going from 350 watts to 440 for your sustainable power output... Read the sports literature on epo/ blood doping speeder. :/

But thats not all. Repeatability of hard efforts during a Road Race or Crit (attacking on and off) ability shoots through the roof. There's no WAY riders in 20-50 places ( the 5 bio passport positives) are loosing to clean riders in Grand Tours...no way.

Does the definition of evidence elude you?

Want to try again?
 
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Juan Speeder said:
Does the definition of evidence elude you?

Want to try again?

Bro, there aint any of em' clean... That nice Mennonite (amish) man from Lancaster... Floyd Landis... he doesnt need to dope his clean V02 max is 90...nope.

What about that Tyler hamilton..with the nice dog and the soft demeaner... If anybody does not need to dope its that little tiny climber Heras. He doesnt weigh anything, nothing to slow him down. ;)... What about the British TT specialist Millar...Boardman's TT prodigy doesnt need epo? Surely that very very professional young man Ivan Basso doesnt need any dope, definately not frozen packed red cells from the freezer in nitrogen...surely not whole blood drawn off 2 weeks in advance! What about big Jan? Surely the uber talented rider who lived in Bavaria doesnt need to dope, let alone blood dope with his own blood! Or use IGF-1, slin, actovegin...

What about that american cancer survivor... Lance...he would never ever put Actovegin (free-protein calf blood extract) in his blood... surely he wouldnt come into a race jacked on epo and test positive a bunch of times... Or use that corticoids (kennocort)... He does not need corticoids for his saddle sores surely.

Carlos García Quesada
Marco Pantani
Ángel Casero
Alejandro Valverde
Rubén Plaza
David Bernabeu
David Blanco
Eladio Jiménez
David Latasa
Javier Pascual Rodríguez
Allan Davis
Joseba Beloki
Alberto Contador
David Etxebarría
Isidro Nozal
Unai Osa
Sérgio Paulinho
Michele Scarponi
Marcos Serrano
Ángel Vicioso.....

How about Tyler's Phonak squad... José Ignacio Gutiérrez, José Enrique Gutiérrez, Santiago Botero, they couldnt have doped with Fuentes... No

Óscar Sevilla, the best young rider in 2001..nope
Jörg Jaksche >> who said 100% of the riders on every team he was ever on doped... he must be lying he wouldnt be telling the truth...
 
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Juan Speeder said:
Then he must've gotten a 2 year suspension.

I missed that.

Who is more tested?

On your first point, I would suggest reading Ashenden's February interview with an open mind and see if you think the synthetic EPO in his urine was a conspiracy. As to the chain of custody questions, Lance gave the smoking gun on that one, so ask him if the numbers he gave correspond to the ones on the urine samples. He would know.

As for the "most tested" claim, tell you what, prove he is. What I think you will find when you see the numbers is that his statement was rhetorical and not factual.

On both points, you just need to search these here forums as there are references to all the information you will need. If you want more than that, it is there also.

Personally, I don't think you really want to know, but I could be wrong.
 
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And, as it stands, in a civil action the burden of proof is met in my opinion. Criminial? Well, Lemond's suit isn't a criminal case, so lets see what comes out there.

And as to the 2 year suspension. You and I both know that a retroactive test of a B sample wouldn't produce a suspension even if they found every substance on the banned list, so quit with the false argument there also. Just because they cannot sanction off of it doesn't mean the synthetic EPO wasn't there. The key word being SYNTHETIC.

Either way it matters little because Mr Armstrong really doesn't care what any of us think about it. He already cashed the checks.
 
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fergnago said:
You know what i would like? to read a thread that does not degenerate into "he's on drugs" thread, i wonder if that will ever happen? Am i the only one who is getting sick of hearing about it?

No you aren't, and I understand your point. However, you also can engage in your own discussions with those people who also want to avoid the subject. There is an ignore function, and you also can just not read those posts when you realize what they are.

I would suggest however that the comment you made is just as off topic as the ones on doping. Just sayin'.
 
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Amsterhammer said:
It's easy to throw stats around and baffle people with bull****. Since I'm new here, I have to ask: what do you know that gives you the right to proclaim your opinions and suppositions as being fact?

Since Lance is the most tested sportsman in history (fact) and since he has never been proven (fact) to have doped, where do you get off stating as if it were a fact that you know that he's doped now?

aaanddd.... they're off!!!

big boat breaks fast out of the gate followed by bro deal, thoughtfoood and .....

you've just become new meat... once you get big boat started with the crit this and crit that we get him copy/pasting the same 75 posts we've seen over and over and over gain.. although i think he must have taken a nap this afternoon, just means he'll be up all night giving us the sci fi/horror version of the sport


needle sticks, blood bags, microdosing epo plasma expaders drain blood into coke cans more needle sticks hgh injections portable blood testing labs go train act normal more needle sticks drain blood out put blood back no to much drain some into coke cans flush it down the toilet more needle sticks altered genes more blood bags more needle sick (sic) who know where to hide the tracks slink down the hall secret door hidden refrigerators pay off the cops pay off uci pay off the team mates pay off the massuse who notices you blew out a vein with a needle stick... oh.. and win the friggin race.
 
fergnago said:
You know what i would like? to read a thread that does not degenerate into "he's on drugs" thread, i wonder if that will ever happen? Am i the only one who is getting sick of hearing about it?

Most of this would not occur if the fanboys would not make patently ridiculous statements that Armstrong did not dope and would not make even more laughable arguments as to why all the evidence that he did should be ignored.
 
Juan Speeder said:
Who is more tested?

It does not take a lot of brains to figure out that it is most likely to be someone who wins a lot, races a lot, and races all season plus is high enough ranked that he is subject to the extra heavy OOC testing program. That most likely means a sprinter. Currently I would bet on Cavendish. Before Zabel retired, I would be on him.
 
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Alpe d'Huez said:
FIFY.:D



The guy is a racer. He probably makes a portion of his living going to these races, and gets great pride when he performs well. To have someone show up like this and humiliate you isn't very fun no matter who they are.

I find this happening akin to Tim Linecum showing up to a Single A baseball game to "tune up" his arm, and tossing a one hitter. I wouldn't be impressed, or surprised, or happy to see it especially if I was playing against him. But others might be. And yes, a lot of fans would probably enjoy it.

I'm a minor leaguer I want the chance to face Linecum or someone like him every once in awhile. If you strike out, so what, but put some wood one and it looks awfully good.

Do you really think Ben Jacques-Maynes feels bad he finished ahead of Levi and Chris? He hung with some of the best in the world.

Undoubtedly the coolest second place he'll ever have.

Like him or not, Lance loves cycling and that's a cool race.
 
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BroDeal said:
Fair warning to new members: Be careful with what you say to crazy jack. Otherwise he will start PMing you, asking that you travel to Ohio to fight him. No joke.

i'm not taking the bait.