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May 18, 2009
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wattage said:
I wanted to find out what the general opinion was about VDV. Is he truly still the Yardstick? I don't know. Astarloza finished 11th and he was popped from EPO use although not at that race.

I think that majority of the riders are cleaner than in the 90's but you have to still hit the magic 6.7w/kg number to win TdF. That hasn't changed.

The general opinion is how high he places determines how doped the peloton is. Thus, VdV = Yardstick. I'm waiting for Yardstick to place higher than LA, Cantador, and the Schlecks so we can know they are clean.

Wattage, you must wake up and get with the program here; I am losing my patience with this stuff that you should already know. We know certain riders dope all the time, and we just know in our hearts that others would never dream of doping. Yardstick, Evans, Sastre, Millar (now) etal fall in the latter category. LA of course falls into the other category. In fact, just his presence in the peloton causes everybody to start doping again, except Yardstick. LA'd presence made him fall 4 places from 08 to 09. The peloton was doped 4 Yardstick degrees more in 09 than 08 due to the LA doping osmosis effect.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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biokemguy said:
Maybe this deserves a different thread, but here's some interesting numbers from a Cat 1 that raced Redlands. (Story from Velonews)

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...the-pros-wattage-numbers-from-redlands_109894
The rider in question held 5.4 w/kg for an ~11 minute prologue. Then the article goes on to say...


How does that relate to Lim's statements? He doesn't mention a time frame for holding the 6.7 w/kg.

Would you assume Ben Day is a doper based on this data?

11 minutes is a huge difference from 30 minutes. Armstrong averaged 6.7 w/kg over 31 minutes during his pre tour testing on the Col de la Madone.

Day is a super talented, hard working, rider. He could in back in Europe and be very competitive, but I do not see him putting out an additional 5% for an additional 20 minutes.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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biokemguy said:
Maybe this deserves a different thread, but here's some interesting numbers <snip>~11 minute prologue<snip>
Would you assume Ben Day is a doper based on this data?
velonews said:
Ben Day (68kg) probably averaged over 6.6 w/kg (or better!) to win the prologue.
no i'd not assume anything except this number for ben day is very inaccurate. in fact, im pretty sure it is overestimated by at least 7-10&#37]
take a note, hincapie who was 3d produced only 6.03 w/kg in 9 minutes.

no way day produced 10% more than hink in a longer effort. No way ! [/B]

this example underlines the difficulty (and futility) of taking any estimated performance data too seriously.

Because to be useful for ANY sound analysis (doping, whatever..) it has to:

(I) be measured not estimated
(ii) be clearly defined by the effort duration (10 min vs 20, 30...60 min)
(iii) parcourse, ambiance (temp, humidity, altitude etc) must be known
(iv) measuring system must be known (RMS vs. powertap cos they are different)

hence, power references to doping in this thread make no sense to me.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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Escarabajo said:
Mambo, I don't agree with you here. Especially for the Tour de France. I personally see a big difference between being top 20 or 30 than being 100 - 120. To me that is a big difference. And I believe than most of the riders try hard to be top 20, but some of them fall short of that and fall between 20 to 30.

I mean no offense by this, but this comment really demonstrates that you really don't understand how professional cycling works.

Often times, guys who can legitimately make the front selection are told to ride in the gruppetto, whether they want to or not, just as some guys who are decent time trialists are told not to ride in the TT. It's not a matter of pride, and it's not up to the rider! Some guys are told to save it for other days and other responsibilities, and this applies to about 95% of the riders

If you're told not to ride in a TT and you end up in the top 20, that's pretty much a guarantee not to be invited to the next race in which you want to participate. Making the front group when you're told to ride in the bus is a certain way to make sure you're looking for work the following year.

If you have a GC contender on your team, then any placing lower than the top 10 is more a matter of happenstance than anything else, i.e. you're a 'protected climber/helper' so your responsibility is to be there as long as possible.

This isn't local racing. You're paid to do a job, not to try your best to finish 37th.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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python said:
no i'd not assume anything except this number for ben day is very inaccurate. in fact, im pretty sure it is overestimated by at least 7-10%.

/B]

this example underlines the difficulty (and futility) of taking any estimated performance data too seriously.

Because to be useful for ANY sound analysis (doping, whatever..) it has to:

(I) be measured not estimated
(ii) be clearly defined by the effort duration (10 min vs 20, 30...60 min)
(iii) parcourse, ambiance (temp, humidity, altitude etc) must be known
(iv) measuring system must be known (RMS vs. powertap cos they are different)

hence, power references to doping in this thread make no sense to me.

There were 3 guys within 25 seconds of Day who were between 6.4 and 6.6 w per kg, measured at the crank. So, given his good position and the fact that he paced it better than most, 6.6 seems totally reasonable.

One big difference between this race and the Hincapie prologue is that you're standing for a reasonable portion of it as it is partially a hill climb TT. It's easier for almost everyone to put out more power while standing.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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131313 said:
There were 3 guys within 25 seconds of Day who were between 6.4 and 6.6 w per kg, measured at the crank. So, given his good position and the fact that he paced it better than most, 6.6 seems totally reasonable.

One big difference between this race and the Hincapie prologue is that you're standing for a reasonable portion of it as it is partially a hill climb TT. It's easier for almost everyone to put out more power while standing.

i will give you that standing may have hiked the power numbers somewhat. but unless i personally see the powerfiles of the "guys" you referred to as refernces, i will continue to view the velonews estimate as unreliable. btw, velonews never mentioned any other actual powerfiles as a cross reference.

moot point anyway, doping/no doping conclusions are useless here.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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6.6 is reasonable for the best riders for 10 minutes. 8-12 minutes is the period of time at which factors balance out to suggest you rode at your Vo2 max the whole time. Trained athletes can hold 90% of their Vo2max for 30 minutes plus. That would suggest Ben can hold just under 6...which is exceptional, but by vayer and lim possible. Doesn't mean he is clean though.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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karlboss said:
6.6 is reasonable for the best riders for 10 minutes.
is day the best ride in the world ? have you ever heard of him before this thread ? have you expected a local us race to be producing numbers higher than the the tour in shorter time period?
again, moot point point.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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python said:
is day the best ride in the world ? have you ever heard of him before this thread ? have you expected a local us race to be producing numbers higher than the the tour in shorter time period?
again, moot point point.

Un doped possibly(extremely unlikely), yes many times, more watts per kilo than the noted climber george hincapie yes not too surprised. More watts I would be very surprised. I'm still surprised that George's power could have been so low to place 3rd in a tour prologue. It suggests he pushed 480 watts the whole time? Wiggins almost did that for prologue 09 and weighed almost 10 kilos less. Calibration error?

TT's aren't won by watts/kilo they are won by watts/CDa.

My only point was Day's performance doesn't nudge Lim or Vayer's suspicion limit.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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ChrisE said:
If there are exceptions to the Yardstick peloton doping scale then we would be glad to hear it. Else, pis off.

The yardstick doping peloton method is not a bad one, as long as you know yardstick is clean...and the greatest cyclist on earth. In which case he wins every race and anyone who finishes above him is doping right?
 
Jul 2, 2009
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Race Radio said:
Rice cakes have been shown to add 10-15 watts

So you mock Allen Lim's rice cakes (possibly correctly) but when it suits you, you take his '6.0 threshold' as the truth of an expert?

So Lim is an expert when he agrees with you and he's a fool when he doesn't.

Once you've dispensed with the arrogance at least be consistent with which sources you trust. Stop the cherry picking.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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python said:
is day the best ride in the world ? have you ever heard of him before this thread ? have you expected a local us race to be producing numbers higher than the the tour in shorter time period?
again, moot point point.

I have heard of him and ridden with him. When he is on form the guy is very fast. Raced in Italy as a jr, Aussie Pro TT champ, top 10 ToC. He is a very legit rider and one of the top 5 on the US pro circuit. Redlands is one of the biggest and oldest professional races in America, it is not a local parking lot Crit.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Mambo95 said:
So you mock Allen Lim's rice cakes (possibly correctly) but when it suits you, you take his '6.0 threshold' as the truth of an expert?

So Lim is an expert when he agrees with you and he's a fool when he doesn't.

Once you've dispensed with the arrogance at least be consistent with which sources you trust. Stop the cherry picking.

I must have missed where Lim claimed a 6.0 threshold and where I agreed with it. Lim does say 6.7 w/kg is not possible. I agree with this as do most in the sport.

It is easy to mock the rice cakes and compressions socks as the reason VDV went to the front of the group. It has far more to do with him being given the leaders role then rice cakes.
 
May 18, 2009
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karlboss said:
The yardstick doping peloton method is not a bad one, as long as you know yardstick is clean...and the greatest cyclist on earth. In which case he wins every race and anyone who finishes above him is doping right?

We know Yardstick is clean. Your hypothetical is causing chafing.

Yardstick could have jour sans or be off form, and could finish below other clean cyclists. Or one day he could have the shyts like Pharmstrong. I don't think this has ever been considered so I am going into uncharted territory here.

If Yardstick gets beaten by a clean cyclist, then I am afraid that cyclist will be considered doped unless he is Evans, Sastre, Millar, Simeoni, or French. Or maybe Wiggins with his new Ethiopian diet. Race Radio probably has the list of clean riders regardless of Yardstick's placing.

The fly in the ointment here is LA. Yardstick finishes 8th in 2009, but Sastre finishes 17th in 2009 after winning in 2008 when Yardstick was 4th. This can only be attributed to the LA factor in 2009, with his money buying secret PEDs that varies the effect on certain cyclists by proxy.

I think once LA re-retires order will be restored.
 
Apr 12, 2009
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I am suspect of CVV because he took a leap to that top level of the sport but I'm much more suspect of Wiggins because at least Christian showed that he can climb Wiggins on the other hand showed no such ability before this year.
 
franciep10 said:
I am suspect of CVV because he took a leap to that top level of the sport but I'm much more suspect of Wiggins because at least Christian showed that he can climb Wiggins on the other hand showed no such ability before this year.

Agreed franciep10 i guess this years Tdf will prove all in regaurds to Wiggins???
 
Jul 14, 2009
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You have it all wrong. Don't suspect the 10 year pro coming into form. Distrust the 2 or 3 year pro contesting a big classic or tour. CVV has been in the saddle for 10 years without much event. Never selected for anything. Nobody starts a sentence,"this TT is super hard it will really suit CVV" "this climb is 10% for 20k if anybody will fly up this it will be CVV" "slow roller this will be a hectic bunch sprint my money is on CVV!" the guy is 33 he is allowed to have a couple of good results before it's over for him. why a guy can't have a week of good racing after 10 years without being accused of being juiced is really sad. Lance has pushed everybody to think that mid/late 30's are your best years as a racer, his off bike income has made him into a freak that can ride with no financial pressure. CVV will be checking my tire pressure in a couple of years, Armstrong will be getting injured on Dancing with the Stars.
 
131313 said:
I mean no offense by this, but this comment really demonstrates that you really don't understand how professional cycling works.

Often times, guys who can legitimately make the front selection are told to ride in the gruppetto, whether they want to or not, just as some guys who are decent time trialists are told not to ride in the TT. It's not a matter of pride, and it's not up to the rider! Some guys are told to save it for other days and other responsibilities, and this applies to about 95% of the riders

...
I completely disagree with this statement. This tells me that have been watching too much US Postal / Discovery racing. I know for a fact that some country men try very hard to be top 20 if they can. But to imply that 95% of the domestiques fall off the front and try to ride in the grupetto is plain wrong. I have never seen this in my 27 years that I have been watching the Tour the France. You have 22 teams at least, of which you will have only 5 or 6 fighting for the top positions. Then you have the rest trying to do the best they can unless you are a sprinter. Just take a look at the list of top 20 in the last 10 years.

I think what you are referring to is pure Versus television. They used to say the same thing that you are talking about. But they only referred to Armstrong team all the time.
 
Aug 6, 2009
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Hugh Januss said:
The truth, as usual, falls somewhere in between. For every new guy on a noncontending (for GC) team trying to show himself there are probably 2-3 stronger support riders on GC teams who are doing their job and then soft-pedaling to the finish.

But even so a strong climber softpedals a whole lot faster up a mountain than a weak climber.
 
Hugh Januss said:
The truth, as usual, falls somewhere in between. For every new guy on a noncontending (for GC) team trying to show himself there are probably 2-3 stronger support riders on GC teams who are doing their job and then soft-pedaling to the finish.

I think this is pretty close to the truth. I am always impressed that behind the leaders there are always lots of riders going full out to finish 30th. Sometimes we think by the TV coverage that the leaders are the only ones racing, when in fact there is lots of action just behind them.

Of course there are also support riders that ease off in order to help the leaders in future stages - or to save themselves for a possible stage win.
 
Hugh Januss said:
The truth, as usual, falls somewhere in between. For every new guy on a noncontending (for GC) team trying to show himself there are probably 2-3 stronger support riders on GC teams who are doing their job and then soft-pedaling to the finish.
Fair enough. Good job putting it together.:)


At the same time Cerberus is right. Take for instance Heras and Azevedo for the US Postal / Discovery. Their soft pedaling in the last climb was enough to earn them top 10. Although, they had to ride hard to be in the lead group.