Teams & Riders Cian Uijtdebroeks - From the wetlands to the top of cycling

[Volderke]

I see many interpretations / opinions that seem to drift quite a bit from the reality, so I thought I give it one last try:

Cian wanted to leave Bora. That's a fact. Cian thought the only way out was a team buying out his contract (Trek, Ineos), until someone told him that the context (e.g. the whatsapp) could be enough reason for Cian to unilaterally break his contract and go wherever he wanted to go.
Visma is where Cian wanted to go. Visma said they didn't want to buy him out, but as they got info about the bullying, they saw what Cian's agent saw (no reason to pay for the buy-out) and thus the deal with Visma was settled (unilaterally): Cian would break his contract, Visma was happy with a 'free' rider and Bora was forced to either take the loss / settle or battle it out in court.
Thijs Zonneveld mentioned the existence of the Whatsapp (a group that Cian confirmed to exist, by the way...!). A smart Cian will not say this directly to the press (especially not if a court case is looming, and also not if the case is settled, like how it is now). But his entourage knows, and rumours inevitably spread.

The unknowns in the story:
1. who would take the risks (pay up front for the court case and pay if the court case was lost)? Visma or Cian?
2. as a settlement has been reached, who came closest to what they thought they could claim: Cian / Visma not wanting to pay at all, or Bora demanding a million? Could bullying be used as leverage for avoiding all or part of the money Bora claimed?

We'll probably never know.

Which is why it's bad that a team can do what Visma did and why I hope they have a shitty season next year

Visma didn't do that much: Cian's agent thought there was enough reason to terminate the contract. Visma was supportive of Cian coming, but it was Cian's decision to opt for the unilateral departure at Bora.

No. It doesn't look like it came down to lawyers, or better agents. As lawyers would get involved latter. So all in all it didn't come down to the people that made this mess.

It came down to real people, like Denk, and i assume Cian, discussion, respect, agreement and a hand shake. That is what solved this mess.

Lawyers were key in deciding whether or not a settlement was preferred compared to a court case.

Zoneveld is such a clown. But good to know that he can be bought as a hitman. Will come in handy for Jumbo when they want to sign the next rider from another team for a lower price.

Zonneveld got inside info and did what a good journalist has to do: report it.

All other teams have somehow managed to avoid doing this all these decades so maybe it's not that the transfer system is bad but that Visma are dicks.

Maybe that's because there was a case to be made wrl bullying. Visma didn't start the bullying within Bora...

Accusations were anything but modest. Now confirmed that such accusations were never made by Cian.

Those accusations were never made in public, by Cian, but 100% sure the accusations were the very basis of Cian opting (/daring) to unilaterally terminating the contract.

There is literally no reason for Zonneveld not name any sources now, unless he genuinely believes in some kind of cycling wide culture of retribution against whistleblowers (and I am not sure those people can even be named as such if they even exist).

You wouldn't last long, as a journalist, ending up snitching all of your sources...

Between Van Aert and Uijtdebroeks, the conclusion is that breaking the transfer rules works. No matter what you think about transfer systems in cycling, that's a big problem.

Both cases are quite exceptional as both times, riders saw a case to be made to unilaterally terminate their contracts. In most cases in the pro cycling world, there aren't that kind of conflicts.
And breaking the transfer doesn't work: In the case of van Aert, he lost and had to pay approx. 560.000 euros. That's not just a little bit of money. In case of Cian, they settled. A settlement means that everyone agrees. So until know, you have 2 cases of a pro rider unilaterally breaching his contract. In one case, he lost and thus the rules and regulations wrt contracts were applied, in the other case, they settled. Ofcourse, any agent / team will take lessons from this wrt future contracts in order not to allow too many riders to force their way out, but it seems not many riders have a conflict and want to get out of their teams in the way WvA and Cian tried to do.

 

[Tim Cahill]

GIro GC field probably won't be deep, he should aim for top 5 which would be solid progression.

Pog, Thomas, S Yates/Dunbar, Caruso, Nairoman, a second Ineos rider and probably Van WIlder or something.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Both cases are quite exceptional as both times, riders saw a case to be made to unilaterally terminate their contracts. In most cases in the pro cycling world, there aren't that kind of conflicts.
And breaking the transfer doesn't work: In the case of van Aert, he lost and had to pay approx. 560.000 euros. That's not just a little bit of money. In case of Cian, they settled. A settlement means that everyone agrees. So until know, you have 2 cases of a pro rider unilaterally breaching his contract. In one case, he lost and thus the rules and regulations wrt contracts were applied, in the other case, they settled. Ofcourse, any agent / team will take lessons from this wrt future contracts in order not to allow too many riders to force their way out, but it seems not many riders have a conflict and want to get out of their teams in the way WvA and Cian tried to do.

You are missing the point here. The issue isn't so much whether it works for the riders, but whether it works for the poacher team, i.e. Jumbo. In both cases, Jumbo have gained an unfair advantage over other teams because they signed a rider who wasn't legally available at the time. In both cases, the breach of contract likely doesn't even happen in the first place if Jumbo don't make a move, so it's not truly unilateral in the sense that a third party is heavily involved. In this case, this advantage has been amplified because the settlement cost them less than what other teams were trying to buy out Uijtdebroeks' contract for The fact that Bora agreed to said settlement when they didn't to said moves is moot - their hand was forced, it was either settle or face a long, energy and time-consuming legal battle. So Bora have lost out, and other interested teams have lost out too, and Jumbo are the only team gaining an advantage in a situation with a lot of players, solely because a) Jumbo are once again the only team willing to break the rules (by signing a rider who is legally still employed elsewhere) and b) breaking the rules is once again easily worth it for them.

 

[Netserk]

GIro GC field probably won't be deep, he should aim for top 5 which would be solid progression.

Pog, Thomas, S Yates/Dunbar, Caruso, Nairoman, a second Ineos rider and probably Van WIlder or something.

If Kelderman goes, Cian will be his b!tch in the mountains. Better get used to that leash.

 

[roundabout]

What a weird idea of journalism you have. Now that the case is over, suddenly Zonneveld should reveal his sources? Like it's some kind of game?

That you do not believe him doesn't mean he should lose his journalistic integrity. That you don't like what he says doesn't mean he should refrain from reporting on it. Not to mention that the bullying bit was just a tiny part of an hour long podcast on the case, where he offered a completely fair and balanced view of the whole saga. It's not his fault that the copy paste press ran away with the bullying story and nothing else.

Journalistic integrity is trying to tell both sides of the story.

Somehow I never got the impression that the alleged bullies were given a chance to put their side of the story out. I've written this before, but the way things were presented were way too random - grownup people bullying for no reason whatsoever? And the examples given were rather odd at best.

And would you say that a 'journalist with integrity' who should know that Uijtdebroeks can be quite abrasive himself (and no, that's not victim blaming, but context to what the allegedly bullied person can be like) should not try to investigate more before making a very serious claim? The fact that the podcast with the claims came out, what 3 days after the contract termination news, suggests that there was no time to try to hear both sides and all info was fed by 1 side only.

The podcast reads like a hit piece, walks like a hit piece and talks like a hit piece. Zonneveld can keep his integrity and not reveal anything, however he and people supporting such hacky journalism can be prepared to listen for calls for more evidence before his claims can be taken seriously.

And again, for the hard of reading, Zonneveld can report whatever he feels like reporting.

Also it is abhorrent how you are trying to blame the copy paste press as if somehow you are above such behavior having been trying to prop up the bullying claims on this very forum.

 

[roundabout]

There's literally no way that Jumbo did not break 2.15.122 so maybe the size of the fine would be at least some deterrent against such behavior in the future.

 

[Volderke]

You are missing the point here. The issue isn't so much whether it works for the riders, but whether it works for the poacher team, i.e. Jumbo. In both cases, Jumbo have gained an unfair advantage over other teams because they signed a rider who wasn't legally available at the time. In both cases, the breach of contract likely doesn't even happen in the first place if Jumbo don't make a move, so it's not truly unilateral in the sense that a third party is heavily involved. In this case, this advantage has been amplified because the settlement cost them less than what other teams were trying to buy out Uijtdebroeks' contract for The fact that Bora agreed to said settlement when they didn't to said moves is moot - their hand was forced, it was either settle or face a long, energy and time-consuming legal battle. So Bora have lost out, and other interested teams have lost out too, and Jumbo are the only team gaining an advantage in a situation with a lot of players, solely because a) Jumbo are once again the only team willing to break the rules (by signing a rider who is legally still employed elsewhere) and b) breaking the rules is once again easily worth it for them.

I largely agree / follow what you are saying but one thing is omitted:

Why was Bora's hand forced? You can't force something if there wasn't any leverage to force it.

You can blame Visma for (pro?)actively helping / supporting / facilitating the transfer, but you cannot blame them for anything that Cian / his entourage was 'threatening' to use to defend his unilateral termination of the contract, in court. If there was nothing Cian could bring forward, there was nothing to force his way out.

 

[Netserk]

If he goes to a Belgian court, even in the scenario where Cian has no leg to stand on, a lawsuit would bring considerable uncertainty and costs to Bora. So in the short term, they are net ahead if they give a discount less than that to settle the case. Knowing that, Jumbo/Cian can threaten considerable costs on Bora if they don't play ball.

 

[Berniece]

GIro GC field probably won't be deep, he should aim for top 5 which would be solid progression.

Pog, Thomas, S Yates/Dunbar, Caruso, Nairoman, a second Ineos rider and probably Van WIlder or something.

Indeed, like someone else said. Top 10 is to be expected, top 5 would be good, and podium would be amazing. It'll depend on how he improves in TT and shorter climbs. On long climbs I can see him finish top 3.

 

[Lequack]

If Kelderman goes, Cian will be his b!tch in the mountains. Better get used to that leash.

Doesn't need to get used to it. He can just break the contract.

 

[hrotha]

If he goes to a Belgian court, even in the scenario where Cian has no leg to stand on, a lawsuit would bring considerable uncertainty and costs to Bora. So in the short term, they are net ahead if they give a discount less than that to settle the case. Knowing that, Jumbo/Cian can threaten considerable costs on Bora if they don't play ball.

Plus even if they won the lawsuit they'd be stuck with an angry, unmotivated rider who is absolutely leaving next year. Not exactly the recipe for success, and a strong incentive in itself to reach an agreement

 

[theyoungest]

If he goes to a Belgian court, even in the scenario where Cian has no leg to stand on, a lawsuit would bring considerable uncertainty and costs to Bora. So in the short term, they are net ahead if they give a discount less than that to settle the case. Knowing that, Jumbo/Cian can threaten considerable costs on Bora if they don't play ball.

That's the point of every buyout deal, isn't it? Rider isn't satisfied so can leave for a reasonable amount. Not, as in this case, for one million euros, which is based on nothing.

 

[Netserk]

That's the point of every buyout deal, isn't it? Rider isn't satisfied so can leave for a reasonable amount. Not, as in this case, for one million euros, which is based on nothing.

Which is exactly what two other teams were ready to offer. The market price.

And no, I don't think unilateral termination of contract and follow-up lawsuit was on the table when Rogla wanted to transfer.

 

[theyoungest]

Which is exactly what two other teams were ready to offer. The market price.

And no, I don't think unilateral termination of contract and follow-up lawsuit was on the table when Rogla wanted to transfer.

It probably was. Denk approached Roglic during the Vuelta, and afterwards Roglic indicated he wanted to leave. I think it was inevitable, and Plugge accepted that. If he hadn't, I'm pretty sure Roglic wouldn't have just said "oh, fine, I guess I'll stay then for a few more years". And they actually did offer Bora a deal for Roglic that was below the existing contract value. Not, like Bora did (albeit via Alex Carera) a deal of ten times the contract value.

 

[Netserk]

It probably was. Denk approached Roglic during the Vuelta, and afterwards Roglic indicated he wanted to leave. I think it was inevitable, and Plugge accepted that. If he hadn't, I'm pretty sure Roglic wouldn't have just said "oh, fine, I guess I'll stay then for a few more years". And they actually did offer Bora a deal for Roglic that was below the existing contract value. Not, like Bora did (albeit via Alex Carera) a deal of ten times the contract value.

Contract value is not the same as the salary, and as I've already pointed out before the relationship is the opposite: the lower the salary is on the remaining part of the contract, the greater value the contract has. EDIT: To give an example, do you think Israel needs any compensation to terminate the contract of Froome? The opposite rather! I'm sure they would be willing to pay him a substantial share of his remaining salary to cut him out.

Can you substantiate your hunch that a unilateral termination of contract was on the table if Jumbo didn't accept Bora's offer?

 

[scribers]

So Giro then. Any predictions on how Cian will bode?

5th to 10th

 

[red_flanders]

then you dont know the real Cian

I don't know anywhere near enough about him to comment on his nature. Are you two friends?

My point was not about him, it was about the culture and pecking order on the team. It's hard to imagine being on that team, seeing how Wout is treated, and thinking you have any room to dictate what he does or doesn't do. No matter what the "real Cian" is like. My guess, and I could certainly be wrong, is that he'll get in line with a team which is supportive but structured. He's there to help, learn, and get some chances. Vingo and WVA are the Alphas. Fighting that battle would be delusional.

Wout will enter the breakaway and ride for himself on every hilly stage, cause "Working for Cian? that doesn't work for me, brother!"

And the team will be happy to keep Wout happy and get exciting stage wins. Then Wout will bury himself for any legitimate GC contender they have.

 

[Berniece]

It probably was. Denk approached Roglic during the Vuelta, and afterwards Roglic indicated he wanted to leave. I think it was inevitable, and Plugge accepted that. If he hadn't, I'm pretty sure Roglic wouldn't have just said "oh, fine, I guess I'll stay then for a few more years". And they actually did offer Bora a deal for Roglic that was below the existing contract value. Not, like Bora did (albeit via Alex Carera) a deal of ten times the contract value.

Denk approached Roglic. I thought they officially couldn’t do such a thing

 

[CyclistAbi]

A while back we had a case of a WW2 bomb deactivation. That happens rather often, still this case stood out. In regards to media coverage. It all went well and the thing i was most surprised about is some people were left disappointed. For the bomb not to go off.

 

[Squire]

Look at Ayuso. A better climber and a far better TT at 20. Already 22 next season. But no major progress, and during the Tour 24 Pogacar's domestique. Then you can be sure that Cian will become Vingegaard's domestique in the coming years..... unless winning the Giro next year (or at least be second after Pogacar).

You're sure quick to write people off. A lot of GT winners had barely even turned pro at age 22. You can't project everyone's development on what Ayuso is doing. And it's rather harsh to complain about no progression this year, when he hardly rode a bike until midway through the 2023 season.

Everyone progresses at their own unique pace. Vingegaard didn't turn pro until 22 (granted, he suffered injury as an U23), Carapaz rode Spanish amateur races at 23, and Hindley's biggest result at 23 was the Tour of Fuzhou. Rodriguez went pro straight from juniors like Cian, and it's only now that he's starting to look like a proper GT threat.

If Kelderman goes, Cian will be his b!tch in the mountains. Better get used to that leash.

You might be jesting based on the Hindley/Wilco conundrum, but I actually think Kelderman is underrated these days and might be a serious podium threat if he goes to the Giro.

 

[Netserk]

I fully expect Kelderman to reach his highest level ever next year. Well, if he stops being Crash Bandicoot.

 

[Squire]

I fully expect Kelderman to reach his highest level ever next year. Well, if he stops being Crash Bandicoot.

The latter is a rather unreasonable expectation when it comes to Kelderman though.

 

[Potomac]

35 forum pages generated this month for this rider.

It's only the 22nd and nine more days to go. Keep bringing it, people.

 

[rallybanana]

35 forum pages generated this month for this rider.

It's only the 22nd and nine more days to go. Keep bringing it, people.

I don't really have enough legal expertise to make a meaningful contribution to this thread. Should have watched more Matlock or Perry Mason when I was young.

 

[Rob5091]

At last, all the adults in the room got together and hashed out a deal. Yeah, people think it's the end of the transfer system as we know it, but if a guy is unhappy at a team and wants to move, it's best for all concerned he leaves. He's not the first one to leave before the end of his contract, like Ewan at Lotto or Roglic at Jumbo.