Teams & Riders Cian Uijtdebroeks - From the wetlands to the top of cycling

[theyoungest]

Denk approached Roglic. I thought they officially couldn’t do such a thing

Officially not, but of course that happens every time. One of the many instances of hypocrisy in this saga. Denk had already done it to Evenepoel, as Lefevere was happy to point out

Contract value is not the same as the salary, and as I've already pointed out before the relationship is the opposite: the lower the salary is on the remaining part of the contract, the greater value the contract has. EDIT: To give an example, do you think Israel needs any compensation to terminate the contract of Froome? The opposite rather! I'm sure they would be willing to pay him a substantial share of his remaining salary to cut him out.

Can you substantiate your hunch that a unilateral termination of contract was on the table if Jumbo didn't accept Bora's offer?

I can't. But like I said, I don't suppose that would have been the end. It's just not a healthy situation anymore, like it wasn't with Uijtdebroeks at Bora.

I understand your logic of salary vs. contract value, but to me as a layman rather than a legal expert it seems flawed, because it says something about how the team values the rider. If they're only prepared to pay him a hundred thousand for the remaining year of his contract, but only want to let him leave for one million, I assume they'd have to explain that rather huge difference in court.

 

[Netserk]

Is it not quite common for football transfers that the transfer sum is much larger than the salary?

 

[Berniece]

Is it not quite common for football transfers that the transfer sum is much larger than the salary?

Yes. They also have buyout clauses in their contracts.

 

[Faserr]

I am sure Bora wanted to pay more or the same as Visma-Lab if he wanted to stay. 100.000 Euro is not his value for 2024.
It was his value when the first deal with Bora was made.

 

[roundabout]

If there were teams willing to pay far more than 100K while not being compelled to do so, why should Jumbo get a discount?

 

[theyoungest]

If there were teams willing to pay far more than 100K while not being compelled to do so, why should Jumbo get a discount?

Because it's not a cattle market and the rider also has a say. You're arguing that a rider should always be sold to the highest bidder.

 

[roundabout]

Because it's not a cattle market and the rider also has a say. You're arguing that a rider should always be sold to the highest bidder.

The rider has a say by not agreeing to a contract offer from a team he does not want to ride for. If the teams offering 1M (or whatever was suggested) do not reach agreement with Uijtdebroeks, it still does not mean that Bora are under obligation to accept anything below that.

And to add: it would be quite strange that a rider allegedly being bullied would pass on a chance/multiple chances to leave the team where he was bullied. The whole "I am being bullied, but I will only ride for ex Jumbo next year" angle never made sense to me.

 

[roundabout]

And just to add a bit more, if there were teams willing to offer 1M for a buyout, it means that those teams probably did not suspect that there would be any reason soon for Uijtdebroeks to terminate his contract.

So you can pick which is more likely, that Zonneveld somehow knows more what is going on within Bora vs the actual people within cycling doing contract negotiations , or he was fed specific information from a specific side for a specific purpose.

 

[Berniece]

And just to add a bit more, if there were teams willing to offer 1M for a buyout, it means that those teams probably did not suspect that there would be any reason soon for Uijtdebroeks to terminate his contract.

So you can pick which is more likely, that Zonneveld somehow knows more what is going on within Bora vs the actual people within cycling doing contract negotiations , or he was fed specific information from a specific side for a specific purpose.

Fact that Bora didn’t go to court says enough. There obviously was the WhatsApp group and bullying

 

[pastronef]

Fact that Bora didn’t go to court says enough. There obviously was the WhatsApp group and bullying

go to court and spend money on lawyers for a rider that does not want to stay anyway? let him go (after making a deal with Jumbo for more than 100k euro) et voilà.

 

[roundabout]

Fact that Bora didn’t go to court says enough. There obviously was the WhatsApp group and bullying

Why would Jumbo pay any money at all to Bora if the unilateral contract termination is so obviously valid?

Why would there be a contract termination agreement only now, if Bora had no leverage at all?

 

[IndianCyclist]

Cian's agent is Alex Carrera who is also Pog's agent and has been around cycling for decades. Bora fully intended to use Cian @ 100k for 2024 or sell him to the highest bidder whether Cian wanted to go or not which is basically extortion. If Alex gave useless advice, it is unlikely that he would have retained top clients. He also may have been the one who leaked the bullying story. The moral is if a team needs to keep its riders they need a buyout clause or at least raise the salary to a value equal to the rider potential.

 

[Berniece]

go to court and spend money on lawyers for a rider that does not want to stay anyway? let him go (after making a deal with Jumbo for more than 100k euro) et voilà.

If you are in the right you could’ve gotten more

Why would Jumbo pay any money at all to Bora if the unilateral contract termination is so obviously valid?

Why would there be a contract termination agreement only now, if Bora had no leverage at all?

Because it would take too long

 

[roundabout]

Cian's agent is Alex Carrera who is also Pog's agent and has been around cycling for decades. Bora fully intended to use Cian @ 100k for 2024 or sell him to the highest bidder whether Cian wanted to go or not which is basically extortion. If Alex gave useless advice, it is unlikely that he would have retained top clients. He also may have been the one who leaked the bullying story. The moral is if a team needs to keep its riders they need a buyout clause or at least raise the salary to a value equal to the rider potential.

How exactly is selling to a highest bidder without rider consent possible, when the UCI rules explicitly say that such a transfer requires the agreement of the rider?

 

[roundabout]

Because it would take too long

Ah, so sometimes convenience is more important than the fight for the truth.

No idea why you are not willing to apply the same consideration to the other side of the dispute though.

 

[CyclistAbi]

So if all three parties are now pleased, what else do we need to do, to please this forum?

 

[ManicJack]

How exactly is selling to a highest bidder without rider consent possible, when the UCI rules explicitly say that such a transfer requires the agreement of the rider?

Because this is the CN Forum🙄

 

[pastronef]

If you are in the right you could’ve gotten more

why lose energy, and money, and time, and interviews and mental focus on a useless fight started by Cian? settle a deal and bring on 2024. Bora does not need it, he wanted to go away in any case. the focus now is Roglic and hopefully chasing Cian down at every occasion. remember Movistar helping to chase Carapaz during the Vuelta a few years ago? there you go

 

[Berniece]

why lose energy, and money, and time, and interviews and mental focus on a useless fight started by Cian? settle a deal and bring on 2024. Bora does not need it, he wanted to go away in any case. the focus now is Roglic and hopefully chasing Cian down at every occasion. remember Movistar helping to chase Carapaz during the Vuelta a few years ago? there you go

Ah some more bullying, sure why not

 

[pastronef]

Ah some more bullying, sure why not

that's racing, stuff like this has been happening forever in cycling. teams settle some matter this way, by racing

 

[theyoungest]

that's racing, stuff like this has been happening forever in cycling. teams settle some matter this way, by racing

Maybe they'll use Nico Denz with Vlasov on his wheel to launch an attack on Cian.

Ah, so sometimes convenience is more important than the fight for the truth.

No idea why you are not willing to apply the same consideration to the other side of the dispute though.

Says who? You'll argue everything just so that Bora comes out squeaky clean, and Jumbo are somehow evil. Now that they've decided to end the whole saga with an agreement that keeps everybody reasonably satisfied, rather than letting 20 year old Uijtdebroeks enter a long court case (where they wouldn't even be a party!) it's somehow Jumbo admitting that the whole contract termination story was one big lie that they fed to Thijs Zonneveld. Sure, you could interpret it that way, if you really wanted to.

 

[pastronef]

Maybe they'll use Nico Denz with Vlasov on his wheel to launch an attack on Cian.

Cian gained a few seconds on the stage when Vlasov attacked, go figure
Cian couldn't keep up with the best on stage 20, when Vlasov just hung on as long as he could

 

[Hugh Januss]

Cian's agent is Alex Carrera who is also Pog's agent and has been around cycling for decades. Bora fully intended to use Cian @ 100k for 2024 or sell him to the highest bidder whether Cian wanted to go or not which is basically extortion. If Alex gave useless advice, it is unlikely that he would have retained top clients. He also may have been the one who leaked the bullying story. The moral is if a team needs to keep its riders they need a buyout clause or at least raise the salary to a value equal to the rider potential.

Expecting a rider to honor the terms of his contract is hardly extortion. If teams are to have to pay more than the current salary to riders that they develop to be worth more than their salary before the end of its term then shouldn't they also be able to reduce the salaries of riders who are not performing up to what they are being paid? Chris Froome as an example springs to mind.

 

[roundabout]

Says who? You'll argue everything just so that Bora comes out squeaky clean, and Jumbo are somehow evil. Now that they've decided to end the whole saga with an agreement that keeps everybody reasonably satisfied, rather than letting 20 year old Uijtdebroeks enter a long court case (where they wouldn't even be a party!) it's somehow Jumbo admitting that the whole contract termination story was one big lie that they fed to Thijs Zonneveld. Sure, you could interpret it that way, if you really wanted to.

Nope, it was merely an example that it is not wise to use actions or non-actions as proof of something else when there could be other reasons.

Also, please do not make up things that I have never written.

 

[CyclistAbi]

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