Teams & Riders Cian Uijtdebroeks - From the wetlands to the top of cycling

[Libertine Seguros]

It may be forgettable to you and me, but not to the 20 year old rookie for whom this would be a great result and wants to become a major GC rider.

You can also ask yourself, if it is that negligible, why did Vlasov think it was worth attacking a teammate for? Why do riders in the third group at 5 minutes from the stage winner, still sprint for places 25-30 in a Tour stage?

It's pride, it's trust, it's principle, feeling to be taken for a chump...

7th is a great result and 8th isn't? He feels taken by a chump because Vlasov is ahead of him in the pecking order, so he goes to Visma who have more and better leaders who'll be ahead of him in the pecking order and just demonstrated similar if not more dysfunction in terms of squabbling over leadership. it's quite entitled to expect the team to handcuff a much more established GC rider in favour of an unknown quantity, as Cian was at that point in time.

Not gonna pretend Bora handled everything perfectly, but this was hardly something worth a López-Movistar bust up. Hell, what caused the López-Movistar bust up probably wasn't worth that level of breakdown either.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

7th is a great result and 8th isn't? He feels taken by a chump because Vlasov is ahead of him in the pecking order, so he goes to Visma who have more and better leaders who'll be ahead of him in the pecking order and just demonstrated similar if not more dysfunction in terms of squabbling over leadership. it's quite entitled to expect the team to handcuff a much more established GC rider in favour of an unknown quantity, as Cian was at that point in time.

Not gonna pretend Bora handled everything perfectly, but this was hardly something worth a López-Movistar bust up. Hell, what caused the López-Movistar bust up probably wasn't worth that level of breakdown either.

You keep coming back to the same point, that it shouldn't have mattered that much to Uijtdebroeks whether he was 7th or 8th. Yet clearly for Vlasov it mattered enough to suckerpunch his own teammate with the help of another teammate. Maybe you should ask Vlasov why he did it if 8th is also a great result and it's all not that important. Uijtdebroeks was ahead because he was the better rider that Vuelta. He deserved that 7th spot and i'm sure that was how he felt. To see two teammates attack your spot specifically (because there was no way Vlasov was going to overtake 6th or 5th in GC) i can perfectly imagine he felt backstabbed.

If anything, for a rider like Vlasov 7th or 8th should not have mattered. That would be different (from Vlasov's perspective) in case it was for a podium spot, or at least a top 5. I think the most logical explanation is that this is what sparked the "anti-Uijtdebroeks / bullying" drama. Uijtdebroeks also looks like a goofy dude, and i can see how he might have been the victim of schoolyard bullying when he was a teenager. People who have been bullied in school are much more susceptible to signals that might even vaguely give you the impression of being made fun of, and that is something that will not go away. Which in turn often makes the situation worse. So again, we don't know.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

It's not that it shouldn't have mattered period, it's that it shouldn't have mattered so much - and yes, this applies to Vlasov too - to cause such an irreparable conflict that could only be resolved by throwing a tantrum, tearing up his contract and running to a team that was guilty of the same issue on a higher profile. We see footballers pull similar stunts to force moves and it invariably results in a lot of hatred with their former clubs (and within their club while the saga is going on, just look at Ademola Lookman or Alexander Isak at present) - Uijtdebroeks is probably lucky that that kind of supporter loyalty doesn't really permeate cycling.

Maybe Vlasov knew the team was negotiating with Roglič already seeing and felt his position within the team was being undermined too, you know? I don't feel the difference between 7th and 8th is that important to have a complete meltdown over, but if it's fine for Uijtdebroeks to be so upset about losing it because that 7th place is so desirable for him, why can't it be desirable for Vlasov too? This is the big paradox - multiple riders on the same team going for the same spot on the GC is what is being put forward as the primary reason for his falling out with Bora, but if it was that big a problem for Uijtdebroeks, he wouldn't have chosen Visma as his destination. Like I say, Bora certainly didn't handle things well, but if Uijtdebroeks is so sensitive to things that give the impression of being made fun of, whining about being bullied because another rider was allowed to ride for themselves and ripping up contracts because you don't get your own way is kinda painting a target on your own back too.

In some respects, if he does get over the hardships of the last two years and gets back up to where he was back then physically, having endured those problems might be better for him in the long run because the fact he hasn't done much worthy of note in the last two years has enabled him to lay low and the bad blood and feeling aroused by his transfer has largely dissipated and is mostly confined to message board discourse like we're having at the moment.

 

[hrotha]

The idea that Uijtdebroeks was "backstabbed" because Vlasov was allowed to make his own race rather than forced to protect Uijtdebroeks's 7th (seventh) place is just sad. I'm sure that's how he saw it but it's ridiculous

 

[Berniece]

The idea that Uijtdebroeks was "backstabbed" because Vlasov was allowed to make his own race rather than forced to protect Uijtdebroeks's 7th (seventh) place is just sad. I'm sure that's how he saw it but it's ridiculous

What do you mean by making his own race? The only thing Vlasov could've gained was his teammates (Uijtdebroeks) position.

 

[hrotha]

What do you mean by making his own race? The only thing Vlasov could've gained was his teammates (Uijtdebroeks) position.

That's literally what "making his own race" means, there's no "don't overtake your teammates" clause. If such a clause exists, it's no longer "make your own race" but "protect your teammate's GC spot", which is only justified IMO for, like, a podium spot

 

[Berniece]

That's literally what "making his own race" means, there's no "don't overtake your teammates" clause. If such a clause exists, it's no longer "make your own race" but "protect your teammate's GC spot", which is only justified IMO for, like, a podium spot

He doesn’t need to protect that spot, he just also doesn’t need to try and gain it for himself. That’s common courtesy

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

That's literally what "making his own race" means, there's no "don't overtake your teammates" clause. If such a clause exists, it's no longer "make your own race" but "protect your teammate's GC spot", which is only justified IMO for, like, a podium spot

Usually people say "let the road/race" decide, well it was decided. Only in the TT did Vlasov nearly take a 2 minutes headstart which he lost, and more, when the mountains came. He then used a teammate to attack his other teammate. If the game would have been played correctly, and they should all have been able to "make their own race" then Uijtdebroeks should also have been allowed to make his own race and chase down Vlasov, right? Or even better, have teammates work for him in order to catch Vlasov and Denz? Yeah, something tells me then suddenly that would not be "cool" anymore.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Usually people say "let the road/race" decide, well it was decided. Only in the TT did Vlasov nearly take a 2 minutes headstart which he lost, and more, when the mountains came. He then used a teammate to attack his other teammate. If the game would have been played correctly, and they should all have been able to "make their own race" then Uijtdebroeks should also have been allowed to make his own race and chase down Vlasov, right? Or even better, have teammates work for him in order to catch Vlasov and Denz? Yeah, something tells me then suddenly that would not be "cool" anymore.

So, given Vlasov had a better GC position after the ITT, then was abandoned to his fate while Uijtdebroeks rode his own race in the mountains, are we saying therefore that Uijtdebroeks didn't support a teammate who was better placed on GC, and instead rode for his own goals?

Then Vlasov committed a heinous act of treachery which massively upset Cian, and was deemed worthy of trashing a contract and throwing the whole team under the bus for.... checks notes... riding for his own goals instead of supporting a teammate who was better placed on GC? In order to join a team who had just seen a bunch of very public controversy due to their riders... checks notes... riding for their own goals instead of supporting a teammate who was better placed on GC?

 

[Berniece]

So, Uijtdebroeks didn't support a teammate who was better placed on GC, and instead rode for his own goals?

Then Vlasov committed a heinous act of treachery which massively upset Cian, and was deemed worthy of trashing a contract and throwing the whole team under the bus for.... checks notes... riding for his own goals instead of supporting a teammate who was better placed on GC? In order to join a team who had just seen a bunch of very public controversy due to their riders... checks notes... riding for their own goals instead of supporting a teammate who was better placed on GC?

You must understand that there's a difference between just following the pace of leaders in the race which Uijtdebroeks did, and doing an attack with a teammate on your teammate which is what Vlasov did?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

You must understand that there's a difference between just following the pace of leaders in the race which Uijtdebroeks did, and doing an attack with a teammate on your teammate which is what Vlasov did?

Vlasov went into the race as team leader, he's got the #1 on his back, he's an infinitely more proven GC rider than Uijtdebroeks at that time, and he may have perceived this as being some 20-year-old upstart of a teammate ignoring him, leaving him behind and undermining his GC bid. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Vlasov could feel slighted too, you know, and felt that justified his actions? You know, just like you argue that Uijtdebroeks' feeling slighted apparently justified his?

Or do excuses for bad behaviour, selfishness and entitlement only work for Uijtdebroeks?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

So, given Vlasov had a better GC position after the ITT, then was abandoned to his fate while Uijtdebroeks rode his own race in the mountains, are we saying therefore that Uijtdebroeks didn't support a teammate who was better placed on GC, and instead rode for his own goals?

Then Vlasov committed a heinous act of treachery which massively upset Cian, and was deemed worthy of trashing a contract and throwing the whole team under the bus for.... checks notes... riding for his own goals instead of supporting a teammate who was better placed on GC? In order to join a team who had just seen a bunch of very public controversy due to their riders... checks notes... riding for their own goals instead of supporting a teammate who was better placed on GC?

If you think those are the same thing, then there is nothing left to discuss here. Vlasov ATTACKED Uijtdebroeks position DIRECTLY with the HELP of a TEAMMATE. The only place he could realistically overtake was that of Uijtdebroeks. This was on the final day. Keep checking those notes, i'm sure one day you will understand where the difference lies.

Vlasov went into the race as team leader, he's got the #1 on his back, he's an infinitely more proven GC rider than Uijtdebroeks at that time, and he may have perceived this as being some 20-year-old upstart of a teammate ignoring him, leaving him behind and undermining his GC bid. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Vlasov could feel slighted too, you know, and felt that justified his actions? You know, just like you argue that Uijtdebroeks' feeling slighted apparently justified his?

Or do excuses for bad behaviour, selfishness and entitlement only work for Uijtdebroeks?

Uijtdebroeks went into that race as a free rider. He was better than Vlasov in the mountains, he didn't have to wait. Uijtdebroeks already finished top 10 that same year in Oman, Catalunya, Romandie and Suisse, while having won Avenir the year prior. I'm not sure what palmares you think Vlasov has.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

If you think those are the same thing, then there is nothing left to discuss here. Vlasov ATTACKED Uijtdebroeks position DIRECTLY with the HELP of a TEAMMATE. The only place he could realistically overtake was that of Uijtdebroeks. This was on the final day. Keep checking those notes, i'm sure one day you will understand where the difference lies.

Yes. One of them has a flag next to his name that makes for much more positive perception and coverage in the press than the other, and both of them felt - rightly or wrongly - slighted, and probably overreacted to the situation. But only one of them then malded colossally, threw his entire team under the bus accusing them of abuse and bullying, acted like a footballer trying to force a move to a team guilty of the same things as the team he was on, only to a much bigger and more obvious scale, and that's the one we're being asked to treat as the victim.

Uijtdebroeks went into that race as a free rider. He was better than Vlasov in the mountains, he didn't have to wait. Uijtdebroeks already finished top 10 that same year in Oman, Catalunya, Romandie and Suisse, while having won Avenir the year prior. I'm not sure what palmares you think Vlasov has.

A guy who had finished top 5 in two GTs, won 1 WT stage race and podiumed two others in the 18 months prior to that race (edit: not quite, his Paris-Nice podium was 2021 rather than 2022, my bad) as well as podiuming San Sebastián and finishing 2nd in the Vuelta a Burgos, the Vuelta's main warmup race, just before the race started... is a better palmarès than coming 6th in the same race Vlasov won the year prior, and 7th and 9th in two other WT stage races, and 9th in the Tour of Oman. Uijtdebroeks might wind up being the better rider in the long run, but it's clearly and objectively factual to say that Aleksandr Vlasov has a much better palmarès and is more established as a GC leader, both then and now, than Cian Uijtdebroeks.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Gc rider attacks on the final GC stage of a grand tour. Wow so controversial

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Yes. One of them has a flag next to his name that makes for much more positive perception and coverage in the press than the other, and both of them felt - rightly or wrongly - slighted, and probably overreacted to the situation. But only one of them then malded colossally, threw his entire team under the bus accusing them of abuse and bullying, acted like a footballer trying to force a move to a team guilty of the same things as the team he was on, only to a much bigger and more obvious scale, and that's the one we're being asked to treat as the victim.

A guy who had finished top 5 in two GTs, won 1 WT stage race and podiumed two others in the 18 months prior to that race (edit: not quite, his Paris-Nice podium was 2021 rather than 2022, my bad) as well as podiuming San Sebastián and finishing 2nd in the Vuelta a Burgos, the Vuelta's main warmup race, just before the race started... is a better palmarès than coming 6th in the same race Vlasov won the year prior, and 7th and 9th in two other WT stage races, and 9th in the Tour of Oman. Uijtdebroeks might wind up being the better rider in the long run, but it's clearly and objectively factual to say that Aleksandr Vlasov has a much better palmarès and is more established as a GC leader, both then and now, than Cian Uijtdebroeks.

The point was not that Vlasov didn't have a better palmares, but that his palmares was not of that order to warrant Uijtdebroeks, who had a free role and already proved his talent, to wait for him the very first time they had to climb. This scenario would be different had Vlasov been in a much better position the last MTF stage and Uijtdebroeks were behind him in GC. If Uijtdebroeks were 8th in GC and Vlasov 3rd, and on the final MT stage, Vlasov was struggling to keep his podium, i think we all agree in that case Uijtdebroeks waits.

Same thing happened in the Tour. Roglic has the much bigger Palmares than Lipowitz (the gap compared to Uijtdebroeks/Vlasov an order of magnitude larger), yet Lipowitz did not wait, even attacked, because he was better in the mountains. Would have been a different case in case Roglic were better in the Mountains and Lipowits waited for a flat stage to suckerpunch Roglic out of his (and only his) GC spot.

Gc rider attacks on the final GC stage of a grand tour. Wow so controversial

Yawn.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The point was not that Vlasov didn't have a better palmares, but that his palmares was not of that order to warrant Uijtdebroeks, who had a free role and already proved his talent, to wait for him the very first time they had to climb.

Vlasov's palmarès isn't good enough to warrant Uijtdebroeks waiting for him, yet Uijtdebroeks' palmarès is good enough that Vlasov must be forced to drop into line behind him?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Vlasov's palmarès isn't good enough to warrant Uijtdebroeks waiting for him, yet Uijtdebroeks' palmarès is good enough that Vlasov must be forced to drop into line behind him?

Yeah, because all the context that i spoke of, you suddenly forgot. So yeah, whatever you say.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yeah, because all the context that i spoke of, you suddenly forgot. So yeah, whatever you say.

I'm not forgetting it. You're saying that Cian Uijtdebroeks doesn't need to take Aleksandr Vlasov into account because he has a free role, but that Aleksandr Vlasov should take Cian Uijtdebroeks into account despite having a free role. It's very one-sided. I'm just reading a whole lot of "Cian Uijtdebroeks can do what he wants because he's earned the freedom. Aleksandr Vlasov cannot do what he wants because Cian Uijtdebroeks' feelings might get hurt".

Like I said before, if you guys are right in your case that this is what the whole shebang was all about, I think I actually was being nicer to him when I characterised him as forcing a move due to being a money-hungry mercenary, because you guys are telling me that actually he was being an entitled crybaby princess who threw a tantrum and spread lies about people when the team didn't prioritise his feelings enough, and also that he was so monumentally stupid that he didn't notice that Visma, the solution to all his problems, were letting riders with free roles ride against other riders with free roles too, in the very same race, and with more on the line.

When framed like that, you know, saying "he wanted more money" seems a lot more defensible.

 

[Berniece]

I'm not forgetting it. You're saying that Cian Uijtdebroeks doesn't need to take Aleksandr Vlasov into account because he has a free role, but that Aleksandr Vlasov should take Cian Uijtdebroeks into account despite having a free role. It's very one-sided. I'm just reading a whole lot of "Cian Uijtdebroeks can do what he wants because he's earned the freedom. Aleksandr Vlasov cannot do what he wants because Cian Uijtdebroeks' feelings might get hurt".

It’s like you are deliberately leaving out all context and try to simplify it.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

It’s like you are deliberately leaving out all context and try to simplify it.

It's like your attempts to paint Uijtdebroeks as a completely innocent, wronged wallflower who was the victim at every turn has contorted the story such that it makes him look worse.

 

[Berniece]

It's like your attempts to paint Uijtdebroeks as a completely innocent, wronged wallflower who was the victim at every turn has contorted the story such that it makes him look worse.

If that’s your take, fine. It’s been explained very clearly a couple of times now. If you don’t think something was wrong there, fine, no need to keep going in circles. I think he overreacted by leaving but I understand why. Vlasov showed his true colours, and he’s a domestique now for better riders.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

If that’s your take, fine. It’s been explained very clearly a couple of times now. If you don’t think something was wrong there, fine, no need to keep going in circles. I think he overreacted by leaving but I understand why. Vlasov showed his true colours, and he’s a domestique now for better riders.

I never said something wasn't wrong. I said that you're arguing like there's no possible way anybody could ever justify what Vlasov did, while justifying Cian's enormous overreaction at every turn and trying to paint him as blameless in the whole saga.

It's like, metaphorically, Cian bumped Vlasov accidentally at a house party, and Vlasov got affronted thinking it was deliberate and threw an unnecessary and regrettable punch. And then Cian responded by trying to burn the house down.

And we're left with the issue that if this really was all about him feeling slighted by that one action by Vlasov, I come away from this thinking a whole lot less of Uijtdebroeks than I did before, when I would mostly just meme him as a Scrooge McDuck-style character, not dissimilar to what I do with Lorena Wiebes. Defending him against the accusation of being out for money has actually painted him in a much worse light to me, I'm afraid.

 

[saunaking]

this guy should have a time penalty for his style on the bike

 

[pastronef]

this guy should have a time penalty for his style on the bike

meh, style police still present?

 

[Pozzovivo]

Overconfident today on a shallow climb... Should be able to break Lecerf and Fancellu on the final stage, hopefully. Need to get the W in this company.