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Clash of Cultures...Do Europeans Think Differently About Doping Than Americans?

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Jun 15, 2009
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just explain me why baseball ticket sales are up, the NBA is still being watched ... if US Fans are caring.

I mean US cycling fans seem to be more clever, don´t believe the hype so much, are more critical. May it´s because they deal with a european sport, so they think more like europeans. I don´t know...

But what i know is: Don´t confuse intelligent US cycling fans with the avg. USA-24-hour-brainwashed arm-chair-QBs ...
 
usedtobefast said:
i have a belgian buddy, who despises cycling as a drug ridden, low class sport.
kind of like 'pro wrestling'. it is not an unknown attitude, he tells me.

My aunt, who's been involved heavily in Belgian sport most of her life, even the president of one of the federations, feels the same. She basically scoffs at it. Don't think it's quite on the level of Pro Wrestling, but close, and your point is sound.

The historic roots of the sport are certainly working and lower class, from the riders to many of the fans. It's so different here in the US where it's so often a sport for those who have education, travel, and money to spend on big dollar equipment.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
just explain me why baseball ticket sales are up, the NBA is still being watched ... if US Fans are caring.

I mean US cycling fans seem to be more clever, don´t believe the hype so much, are more critical. May it´s because they deal with a european sport, so they think more like europeans. I don´t know...

But what i know is: Don´t confuse intelligent US cycling fans with the avg. USA-24-hour-brainwashed arm-chair-QBs ...

Actually some baseball markets are down, some are up. Seattle is known for giving A Rod and other cheaters a cold, vocal reception. As for the NBA most folks in Seattle were happy to see it go.
You have some insight into blind hero-worshippers that exist everywhere. Armchair QB's or bike racers are usually folks that have competed at NEITHER. There's plenty of those fans in all nations.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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But we had 3 big scandals (Festina, EPO-Lance, Puerto) in cycling which opened the eyes of (almost) everybody. At least in Germany and France, while the US still believes in the one-scapegoat-thing-only. In europe we believed in this illusion 14 years (!!!!) ago.

Now the US tries to downplay the doping problem (see Selig/Stern, proclaming clean and bribe-free sports), so most americans still believe in their "Heroes". They should just start to listen to, for example, the 60 minutes on CBS with Donaghy instead of watching Paris Hilton...

Again, i don´t talk about US-Cycling-Fans, because the got their share of the ugly truth in pro sports.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Just give you an example: In the Mitchell report it was told 7-8% of MLB-Players tested positiv for doping. Translate that to cycling and you´d have ca. 80 (!!!) positives in one year. Could you hear the firestorm in european media?

What happend in the American Kindergarten? Nothing, the show goes on as if nothing big happened. That again brings me back to the consideration of McGwire for HOF.... Kindergarten.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Just give you an example: In the Mitchell report it was told 7-8% of MLB-Players tested positiv for doping. Translate that to cycling and you´d have ca. 80 (!!!) positives in one year. Could you hear the firestorm in european media?

What happend in the American Kindergarten? Nothing, the show goes on as if nothing big happened. That again brings me back to the consideration of McGwire for HOF.... Kindergarten.

You're mixing fan attitude with Big Business. The Mitchell report was commissioned by Congress because baseball and football enjoy sheltered corporate/monopoly status. Clearly someone was concerned in America and they needed to respond. The debate over football head injuries and PED use is now in mainstream media as well.
One thing has happened: baseball players that were implicated in the Mitchell report are lower profile and not performing as well. Football players are now sidelined until they get clearance over head injuries. This is a real response.
If you want to see A Rod clapped in irons and a red D inscribed in his forehead that won't happen. Baseball, Football and the NBA generate Billions$$$ in revenue. They will clean house gradually without killing the industry and the income it produces.
Cycling, on the other hand; can't even get it's act together and lurches from one crisis to another. The revenue sources are fractured and held by many greedy little hands. The Euro media makes more hay constantly rummaging through the garbage as a result and the cycle continues. You can believe the "fan attitude" has something to do with the disclosures but the reality is most Euro fans know more about doping over the history of the sport and could care less.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Oldman said:
(1) baseball players that were implicated in the Mitchell report are lower profile and not performing as well. .... (2) They will clean house gradually without killing the industry and the income it produces.
... (3) You can believe the "fan attitude" has something to do with the disclosures but the reality is most Euro fans know more about doping over the history of the sport and could care less.

1.) low profile, not performing well? Sosa, McGwire, Roid-Rod, Clemens, Pettite, Bonds were the top of the top. Drug users. It´s the same as it was in cycling. The difference is that USA still celebrate their so-called "Heroes", because they don´t care. Now Selig declared Baseball doping free. We heard that funny stuff in cycling one decade earlier.
2.) clean house? you should have said "keeping things" under the carpet (destroying videos of Beli-Cheat, declaring sports dope- and bribe-free like Selig and Stern)
3.) at least in germany cycling took a big hit when all the doping stuff came out, but USA-Fanboys/Girls decide to close both eyes on their scandals and behave like nothing happened.
 
Jan 27, 2010
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fatandfast said:
If 10 or 15 big races can't get together to create some trophy or title or cup for a collective accomplishment that's too bad. The sport will be marginalized even further. Saul Rasin, Phinney,Stetina all need the media to stoke their popularity or cycling's fire in the US is going to go on the slow burn after the Texan and his huge back story are gone. When track events are out of the summer games the chance of creating any new big interest in US cycling will be a magical feat.

maybe so, and i sympathise with those who are trying to stir up interest now that Armstrong has stopped winning and most of the other pretenders have been busted for cheating - but the US market is notorious for only caring about american sports or sports with an obvious american success story. the rest of the world will happily carry on as it always has with or without americans, much as they do for other popular sports like soccer.

what the ProTour really proved is that there isn't much logic behind, or interest in, the desire to have "one big trophy".
 
Jan 27, 2010
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Oldman said:
Pretty much a trolling response. As an American I can't find any immediate citizens that match your characterization.

Americans abroad do seem to fit stereotypes remarkably well i'm afraid, both positive and negative, and their cycling fans are no different.
 
galaxy1 said:
what the ProTour really proved is that there isn't much logic behind, or interest in, the desire to have "one big trophy".

The ProTour did not prove anything other than the UCI is made up of authoritarian incompetents.

I think there is a lot to be said for how the type of cycling fans in different countries affects attitudes about doping. Countries where the fans are mainly above average economically and ride for fitness tend to have an anti-doping view. It does not really matter whether it is the U.S. or Germany.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
1.) low profile, not performing well? Sosa, McGwire, Roid-Rod, Clemens, Pettite, Bonds were the top of the top. Drug users. It´s the same as it was in cycling. The difference is that USA still celebrate their so-called "Heroes", because they don´t care. Now Selig declared Baseball doping free. We heard that funny stuff in cycling one decade earlier.
2.) clean house? you should have said "keeping things" under the carpet (destroying videos of Beli-Cheat, declaring sports dope- and bribe-free like Selig and Stern)
3.) at least in germany cycling took a big hit when all the doping stuff came out, but USA-Fanboys/Girls decide to close both eyes on their scandals and behave like nothing happened.

You need to read what was written more closely:
1. After the Mitchell hearings the performances (home runs, batting averages) of many implicated players declined; suggesting that they had ceased participation. Again; A Rod is not cheered in many stadiums, Clemens may do time for perjury as could Bonds and Pettite came clean. What Pettite did prior to that point was not against Baseball's rules. Now it is. So much for resident Americans being blind.
2. Again Big Business is like the Mob-they handle the problem without killing the profits. It's a reality that has less to do with fans than you'd want to admit.
3. I'd hope the Germans would react! Almost every major cyclist got popped. Don't think Landis is embraced by American Fans in our neighborhood. I don't know what sort of US Idiots you're hanging with in Urp, but you are generalizing in a huge way for the rest of us. People are getting it here.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Oldman said:
You need to read what was written more closely:
1. After the Mitchell hearings the performances (home runs, batting averages) of many implicated players declined; suggesting that they had ceased participation. Again; A Rod is not cheered in many stadiums, Clemens may do time for perjury as could Bonds and Pettite came clean. What Pettite did prior to that point was not against Baseball's rules. Now it is. So much for resident Americans being blind.
2. Again Big Business is like the Mob-they handle the problem without killing the profits. It's a reality that has less to do with fans than you'd want to admit.
3. I'd hope the Germans would react! Almost every major cyclist got popped. Don't think Landis is embraced by American Fans in our neighborhood. I don't know what sort of US Idiots you're hanging with in Urp, but you are generalizing in a huge way for the rest of us. People are getting it here.

1.) Same happened to the TdF; it got slower after the record 2005 TdF. Since we all know here that 70-80% of the peloton doped and there were very little positives, it´s safe to say that the majority in MLB/NFL dope. So i still wonder why ticket sales are up, if the avg. US-Fan is sooo informed/clever/wise. I think it´s because they still believe in the one-scapegoat-thing = yes, US-Fans in the majority are blind.

The MLB-Doping WAS against rules (it´s good described by one poster in the McGwire-Thread).

2.) of course the NFL/MLB don´t shoot in their own legs. But the US media/fans could do much better. They just don´t.

3.) Germany did react. That´s obvious (no more live TdF, pressure on race-promoters etc. etc.). As i told you before: Since most US cycling fans follow a "european" sport they are more enlightened, including you and many others in the clinic. But don´t make the mistake to think that the avg. big league fan is on the same level. They are not.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
1.) Same happened to the TdF; it got slower after the record 2005 TdF. Since we all know here that 70-80% of the peloton doped and there were very little positives, it´s safe to say that the majority in MLB/NFL dope. So i still wonder why ticket sales are up, if the avg. US-Fan is sooo informed/clever/wise. I think it´s because they still believe in the one-scapegoat-thing = yes, US-Fans in the majority are blind.

The MLB-Doping WAS against rules (it´s good described by one poster in the McGwire-Thread).

2.) of course the NFL/MLB don´t shoot in their own legs. But the US media/fans could do much better. They just don´t.

3.) Germany did react. That´s obvious (no more live TdF, pressure on race-promoters etc. etc.). As i told you before: Since most US cycling fans follow a "european" sport they are more enlightened, including you and many others in the clinic. But don´t make the mistake to think that the avg. big league fan is on the same level. They are not.


Spare me your judgemental tone and prejudice. I'll say it one more time: Seattle is a big city that let the NBA go. The Mariners biggest juicer ended up in New York and is booed anytime he shows up and we still have two of the best clean atheletes in the World: Ichiro Suzuki and Ken Griffey. That is our attitude and we actually live here.
 
Jul 14, 2009
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Oldman said:
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Spare me your judgemental tone and prejudice. I'll say it one more time: Seattle is a big city that let the NBA go. The Mariners biggest juicer ended up in New York and is booed anytime he shows up and we still have two of the best clean atheletes in the World: Ichiro Suzuki and Ken Griffey. That is our attitude and we actually live here.

A-Rod is hardly booed. He did have a couple of stretches where the fans let him have it but for the most part he is super popular . The newspapers showed him shirtless sunning himself on an unseasonably warm day after going out with Madonna the night before. After going hitless he got booed. This year he continued to play well in the post season and everybody thought Kate Hudson was a good luck charm. I hope not because he ditched her. Jeter is far and above the most popular. The story of how Derek introduced Tiger to his mistress at Jeter's apt was quelled as a nice guy doing a friend a favor. A- Rods doping admission will be totally forgotten as long as the Yankees keep winning.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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fatandfast said:
A-Rod is hardly booed. He did have a couple of stretches where the fans let him have it but for the most part he is super popular . The newspapers showed him shirtless sunning himself on an unseasonably warm day after going out with Madonna the night before. After going hitless he got booed. This year he continued to play well in the post season and everybody thought Kate Hudson was a good luck charm. I hope not because he ditched her. Jeter is far and above the most popular. The story of how Derek introduced Tiger to his mistress at Jeter's apt was quelled as a nice guy doing a friend a favor. A- Rods doping admission will be totally forgotten as long as the Yankees keep winning.

Unfortunately much of this is a New York state of mind and hurts my argument against stereotyping. They are the media center and cross section of fans most recognizable to those outside the US. Seattle folks know him for what he is. Most West coast folks don't buy into it...except that bartender in San Francisco that defended Barry Bonds. Dude...weight training alone won't make your head that big...
 

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