Clasica San Sebastián 2018, 4/8 - 228.7km

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

Mollema did not botch his form (Mur de Bretagne result, look it up). He fell on the cobbled stage and was pretty hurt afterwards. That cost him his GC and made him look for stage wins (while still not 100% recovered).

Now he obviously is recovered.

Mollema is amateur and have zero tactical skills. Both in the tour and today he rides hard on the front even though they have big gap with clearly better sprinters on his wheels. It`s like he is riding for podium instead of the win.

I thought all the tactics nowadays is done in the team car and the riders just listen to the radio.

Reminds me of unnamed team boss being not happy with the rider as the rider didn't attack. Then rider answered: But you didn't tell me that I should attack!

Then you have Movistar and their idea, You're a pro, you're supposed to be able to make split second decisions from the saddle without being told what to do all the time.

 

[Serpentin]

Re: Re:

Mollema did not botch his form (Mur de Bretagne result, look it up). He fell on the cobbled stage and was pretty hurt afterwards. That cost him his GC and made him look for stage wins (while still not 100% recovered).

Now he obviously is recovered.

Mollema is amateur and have zero tactical skills. Both in the tour and today he rides hard on the front even though they have big gap with clearly better sprinters on his wheels. It`s like he is riding for podium instead of the win.

In the Tour it was more of a hopeless situation. There was nothing that could have prevented either Valgren of Cort from winning that day.

I agree but it is his job to try atleast.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re:

Without a doubt the worst Clasica I have seen. Everything about the race was just meh.

It doesn't give me the same feeling since the big route change in 2014. Now it's just a Fleche with a descent finish.
At least Alaphilippe won.

 

[Serpentin]

Crazy action on the last climb. But the race need to be decided on the Jaizkibel. Even if they have to go up 10 times.The new route is good, I don´t understand why anyone doesn´t try to go long. It is not Flèche.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

Mollema did not botch his form (Mur de Bretagne result, look it up). He fell on the cobbled stage and was pretty hurt afterwards. That cost him his GC and made him look for stage wins (while still not 100% recovered).

Now he obviously is recovered.

Mollema is amateur and have zero tactical skills. Both in the tour and today he rides hard on the front even though they have big gap with clearly better sprinters on his wheels. It`s like he is riding for podium instead of the win.

He’s certainly frustrating to cheer for. Far too often he’s strong like bull, smart like tractor as they say.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Mollema is like Boogerd but better on long climbs. However not a special sprint and often just riding with the best to the finish line

 

[frisenfruitig]

Re: Re:

Mollema did not botch his form (Mur de Bretagne result, look it up). He fell on the cobbled stage and was pretty hurt afterwards. That cost him his GC and made him look for stage wins (while still not 100% recovered).

Now he obviously is recovered.

Mollema is amateur and have zero tactical skills. Both in the tour and today he rides hard on the front even though they have big gap with clearly better sprinters on his wheels. It`s like he is riding for podium instead of the win.

He’s certainly frustrating to cheer for. Far too often he’s strong like bull, smart like tractor as they say.

I don't think he could have done better than 2nd yesterday though, there was no way in hell he was going to drop Alaphilippe. So what exactly was he supposed to do? Don't ride with Alaphilippe, get caught by the chasing group and be dead last in the sprint?

Even if had ridden more conservatively , Alaphilippe would still have smoked him in the sprint every single time. I think Mollema did a rather good job, just unlucky there was one guy able to hold his wheel.

 

[Akuryo]

Re:

Mollema is like Boogerd but better on long climbs. However not a special sprint and often just riding with the best to the finish line

Nah, Boogerd was just too dumb to finish it off despite often being one of the strongest guys. Best was a sentence from Terpstra in 2015 after he finished second in the Ronde behind Kristoff:

A Dutch journalist asked Terpstra about a tactical suggestion from Michael Boogerd that said if he wanted to have a chance, he had to attack before the final ascent of the Oude Kwaremont. Terpstra was quick to reply with a wink. “I read the headline and that was enough. It wasn’t a planned attack. I followed his advice and it’s proven once more that Michael knows exactly how someone can finish as runner-up,” Terpstra said.

 

[Leinster]

Amid all the fuss over Mollema losing out to Alaphilippe, are we being too easy on Lotto Jumbo? 3 riders in the selection of 10, only team with multiple men there, finished 8, 9, 10.

 

[eric_vv]

Re:

Amid all the fuss over Mollema losing out to Alaphilippe, are we being too easy on Lotto Jumbo? 3 riders in the selection of 10, only team with multiple men there, finished 8, 9, 10.

I don't think so. They tried attacking, but couldn't get away. Like I said yesterday you know you're in trouble if Gesink is you're fastest man in a flat sprint.

Numbers work if you can play them over a significant distance, not in a decent and a flat run in to the finish. They needed a long final to make the numbers work.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Plus the Lotto riders, Kruijswijk and Tolhoek especially, attacked earlier on the Jaizkibel as well, trying to toughen up the race for Roglic. Once Roglic was out, they were in trouble. You can have the numbers but if none have a sprint or the strength to get away you'll end up without a prize.

See also: Movistar in the TDF lol

 

[May0maniac]

Mollema also had a rather bad Tour after the cobbles and doesn't have a contract for 2019, so he was probably not that unhappy about getting a podium in an important one day race, that's just how things are, he needs good showings and results.

 

[Finn84]

Re:

Crazy action on the last climb. But the race need to be decided on the Jaizkibel. Even if they have to go up 10 times.The new route is good, I don´t understand why anyone doesn´t try to go long. It is not Flèche.

Would Jaizkibel-Arkale-Murgil-Jaizkibel-Arkale be better?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Crazy action on the last climb. But the race need to be decided on the Jaizkibel. Even if they have to go up 10 times.The new route is good, I don´t understand why anyone doesn´t try to go long. It is not Flèche.

Would Jaizkibel-Arkale-Murgil-Jaizkibel-Arkale be better?

Jaizkibel-Erlaitz-Jaizkibel-Arkale

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

I don't think he could have done better than 2nd yesterday though, there was no way in hell he was going to drop Alaphilippe. So what exactly was he supposed to do? Don't ride with Alaphilippe, get caught by the chasing group and be dead last in the sprint?

Even if had ridden more conservatively , Alaphilippe would still have smoked him in the sprint every single time. I think Mollema did a rather good job, just unlucky there was one guy able to hold his wheel.

Being unlikely to succeed is not a good excuse for not doing things properly. This is Cycling 101: you don't work with someone who's so much faster than you with so little to go. Worst case scenario, they're caught and Mollema ends dead last, yes. Would that have been a tragedy for someone who's already won this race and podiumed twice?

In exchange for that minor risk, Mollema might have forced Alaphilippe to tire himself enough before the sprint, because why the hell would Alaphilippe want to be caught? That would introduce faster riders to the equation, and also more wildcards. But even if they were caught, that would have opened up more tactical opportunities for Mollema. If it's just two riders, you're never going to get away from your opponent except by sheer strength. If there's a group, however, that opens up lots of possibilities for Mollema to actually win the race.

Yes, it's not particularly likely to work. Don't care, it's still the correct way to ride, especially for someone of Mollema's status and palmares, and it used to be something every kid out of cycling school had learned long before even thinking of turning pro.

 

[jaylew]

I don't really fault Mollema's tactics. He probably should have stopped working a bit earlier than he did even if his last "pulls" were more for appearances than anything else - Ala was certainly driving that break. I'm not sure if he knew the gap but once there was only a 2-3k left and he knew there was no chance of getting caught he probably should have stayed in the back but I don't agree with any tactic that could have brought the chasers back.

 

[Akuryo]

Re: Re:

I don't think he could have done better than 2nd yesterday though, there was no way in hell he was going to drop Alaphilippe. So what exactly was he supposed to do? Don't ride with Alaphilippe, get caught by the chasing group and be dead last in the sprint?

Even if had ridden more conservatively , Alaphilippe would still have smoked him in the sprint every single time. I think Mollema did a rather good job, just unlucky there was one guy able to hold his wheel.

Being unlikely to succeed is not a good excuse for not doing things properly. This is Cycling 101: you don't work with someone who's so much faster than you with so little to go. Worst case scenario, they're caught and Mollema ends dead last, yes. Would that have been a tragedy for someone who's already won this race and podiumed twice?

In exchange for that minor risk, Mollema might have forced Alaphilippe to tire himself enough before the sprint, because why the hell would Alaphilippe want to be caught? That would introduce faster riders to the equation, and also more wildcards. But even if they were caught, that would have opened up more tactical opportunities for Mollema. If it's just two riders, you're never going to get away from your opponent except by sheer strength. If there's a group, however, that opens up lots of possibilities for Mollema to actually win the race.

Yes, it's not particularly likely to work. Don't care, it's still the correct way to ride, especially for someone of Mollema's status and palmares, and it used to be something every kid out of cycling school had learned long before even thinking of turning pro.

Dont the bold statements contradict each other? On one hand you say it was not a lot of road left but on the other you say Alaphilippe should tire himself out. I dont think he would burn all his matches, especially since most of it was a descent!

 

[Flamin]

Re:

I don't really fault Mollema's tactics. He probably should have stopped working a bit earlier than he did even if his last "pulls" were more for appearances than anything else - Ala was certainly driving that break. I'm not sure if he knew the gap but once there was only a 2-3k left and he knew there was no chance of getting caught he probably should have stayed in the back but I don't agree with any tactic that could have brought the chasers back.

Totally agree.

Only if you have a good sprinter in the chasing group, it's okay to do absolutely nothing. But in the situation Mollema was in? With him being the only team's asset and an -for him at that point- unknown quantity of riders chasing them down? No way. You'd just look like a major d*ck imo and if I was Alaphilippe, from there on I'd be the first one to jump on Mollema's wheel whenever he attacks in many years to come.

 

[Leinster]

Re: Re:

I don't really fault Mollema's tactics. He probably should have stopped working a bit earlier than he did even if his last "pulls" were more for appearances than anything else - Ala was certainly driving that break. I'm not sure if he knew the gap but once there was only a 2-3k left and he knew there was no chance of getting caught he probably should have stayed in the back but I don't agree with any tactic that could have brought the chasers back.

Totally agree.

Only if you have a good sprinter in the chasing group, it's okay to do absolutely nothing. But in the situation Mollema was in? With him being the only team's asset and an -for him at that point- unknown quantity of riders chasing them down? No way. You'd just look like a major d*ck imo and if I was Alaphilippe, from there on I'd be the first one to jump on Mollema's wheel whenever he attacks in many years to come.

I think that'd be a much bigger d-move than Mollema sitting on Alaphilippe's wheel.

 

[Flamin]

Re: Re:

I don't really fault Mollema's tactics. He probably should have stopped working a bit earlier than he did even if his last "pulls" were more for appearances than anything else - Ala was certainly driving that break. I'm not sure if he knew the gap but once there was only a 2-3k left and he knew there was no chance of getting caught he probably should have stayed in the back but I don't agree with any tactic that could have brought the chasers back.

Totally agree.

Only if you have a good sprinter in the chasing group, it's okay to do absolutely nothing. But in the situation Mollema was in? With him being the only team's asset and an -for him at that point- unknown quantity of riders chasing them down? No way. You'd just look like a major d*ck imo and if I was Alaphilippe, from there on I'd be the first one to jump on Mollema's wheel whenever he attacks in many years to come.

I think that'd be a much bigger d-move than Mollema sitting on Alaphilippe's wheel.

Why is that? I'm not talking about bullying or whatever. Just when in the future, you happen to be in the front in a (small) group with this same guy, you make sure he doesn't win. Pretty normal thing to do.

 

[Leinster]

I just think it'd be an overreaction.

In a 2-up sprint, anyone and everyone knows that Alaphilippe is going to beat Mollema. You know it, I know it, everyone watching the race knows it, and Alaphilippe and Mollema both also know it. In that situation, it is perfectly normal for the non-sprinter to sit on. See (for a couple of examples) vanAvermaet and Lampaert behind Degenkolb on the stage into Roubaix this year, Kristoff and Terpstra in Flanders '16, and any break involving Peter Sagan in any bike race ever. It's just part of bike racing, and sometimes the guy who sits on profits (did you know that Gerald Ciolek won Milan San Remo?) I don't think Cancellara spent the rest of his career trying to block any move Simon Gerrans ever made, because while what he did was a bit of a *** move, it was really just part of bike racing.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I don't really fault Mollema's tactics. He probably should have stopped working a bit earlier than he did even if his last "pulls" were more for appearances than anything else - Ala was certainly driving that break. I'm not sure if he knew the gap but once there was only a 2-3k left and he knew there was no chance of getting caught he probably should have stayed in the back but I don't agree with any tactic that could have brought the chasers back.

Totally agree.

Only if you have a good sprinter in the chasing group, it's okay to do absolutely nothing. But in the situation Mollema was in? With him being the only team's asset and an -for him at that point- unknown quantity of riders chasing them down? No way. You'd just look like a major d*ck imo and if I was Alaphilippe, from there on I'd be the first one to jump on Mollema's wheel whenever he attacks in many years to come.

Alaphilippe has twice as many WT wins this season as Mollema has in his whole career. I don't think he would be suddenly dedicating the next few years of races to sabotaging Mollema.

He's an elite rider nowdays, at the very pinnacle of the sport, and with an incredible sprint for his discipline. Sooner or later he's going to have to get used to dealing with riders sitting on - in the same way that comparable riders like Sagan and Valverde have to do. Because it's going to happen a lot in his career.

I would guess that he probably can't believe his luck that Mollema worked with him, and had already calculated that he would have to do all of the pulling once he bridged the gap at the top of the climb.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

Being unlikely to succeed is not a good excuse for not doing things properly. This is Cycling 101: you don't work with someone who's so much faster than you with so little to go. Worst case scenario, they're caught and Mollema ends dead last, yes. Would that have been a tragedy for someone who's already won this race and podiumed twice?

In exchange for that minor risk, Mollema might have forced Alaphilippe to tire himself enough before the sprint, because why the hell would Alaphilippe want to be caught? That would introduce faster riders to the equation, and also more wildcards. But even if they were caught, that would have opened up more tactical opportunities for Mollema. If it's just two riders, you're never going to get away from your opponent except by sheer strength. If there's a group, however, that opens up lots of possibilities for Mollema to actually win the race.

Yes, it's not particularly likely to work. Don't care, it's still the correct way to ride, especially for someone of Mollema's status and palmares, and it used to be something every kid out of cycling school had learned long before even thinking of turning pro.

Dont the bold statements contradict each other? On one hand you say it was not a lot of road left but on the other you say Alaphilippe should tire himself out. I dont think he would burn all his matches, especially since most of it was a descent!

No, there's no contradiction, because "little to go" is always going to be relative (so I'm not saying he should have sat up merely for the last km or whatever), and because potentially every little bit helps.

 

[Flamin]

Re:

I just think it'd be an overreaction.

In a 2-up sprint, anyone and everyone knows that Alaphilippe is going to beat Mollema. You know it, I know it, everyone watching the race knows it, and Alaphilippe and Mollema both also know it. In that situation, it is perfectly normal for the non-sprinter to sit on. See (for a couple of examples) vanAvermaet and Lampaert behind Degenkolb on the stage into Roubaix this year, Kristoff and Terpstra in Flanders '16, and any break involving Peter Sagan in any bike race ever. It's just part of bike racing, and sometimes the guy who sits on profits (did you know that Gerald Ciolek won Milan San Remo?) I don't think Cancellara spent the rest of his career trying to block any move Simon Gerrans ever made, because while what he did was a bit of a *** move, it was really just part of bike racing.

GVA and Lampaert didn't sit on Degenkolb. They were all trying to make sure they stayed away. And I guess you mean Kristoff vs Terpstra in '14? Because that's hardly a good example, since Terpstra rode with Kristoff until 5k to go. My point is that it wouldn't make sense to actually WANT a chasing group, with no team mate in it, to come back. Yes he should have stopped pulling a bit earlier, like jaylew pointed out and I agreed with, but not immediately after the top of the climb with the chasers right behind, which is what some claimed to be the best option.

MSR '12 is also totally different. Cancellara wasn't even asking to take a pull, so that actually wasn't a d-move from Gerrans' part at all. Not to mention a 2-men situation isn't the same as 3 or more. People never riding with Sagan is a big myth as well.

And I elaborated more on my "if I was Alaphilippe, I would jump on Mollema's wheel...", no need to ridicule it any further it was just of way of speaking (exaggeration).

 

[Flamin]

Re: Re:

I don't really fault Mollema's tactics. He probably should have stopped working a bit earlier than he did even if his last "pulls" were more for appearances than anything else - Ala was certainly driving that break. I'm not sure if he knew the gap but once there was only a 2-3k left and he knew there was no chance of getting caught he probably should have stayed in the back but I don't agree with any tactic that could have brought the chasers back.

Totally agree.

Only if you have a good sprinter in the chasing group, it's okay to do absolutely nothing. But in the situation Mollema was in? With him being the only team's asset and an -for him at that point- unknown quantity of riders chasing them down? No way. You'd just look like a major d*ck imo and if I was Alaphilippe, from there on I'd be the first one to jump on Mollema's wheel whenever he attacks in many years to come.

Alaphilippe has twice as many WT wins this season as Mollema has in his whole career. I don't think he would be suddenly dedicating the next few years of races to sabotaging Mollema.

Of course not. Point is he likely wouldn't have forgotten it and whenever a situation in the future occurs where they're in a break together, I'm pretty sure Ala wouldn't think twice if Mollema went for a winning move.