Clean Aussie Pro's

[42x16ss]

Re:

Getting away from the Evans debate, 3 interesting ones

Adam Hansen
Allan Davis
Henk Vogels

?????

There's no smoke around Hansen other than his crazy run of GT finishes, he's never been implicated AFAIK.

Davis was almost certainly mentioned in the Op Puerto documents, there was a rider initials AD, with a very different regime to the other riders who were all climbers/hilly classics guys. This also correlated with a very good run of form with Liberty Seguros.

Vogels rode for GAN and Mercury in the late 90's with good results at Paris-Roubaix, Paris-Tours and as a lead out man, so make of that what you will His dad was an Olympic trackie though and his brother was quite handy as well.

 

[oldcrank]

I certainly wouldn´t have put it past him to snap a frame. He had big power for sure. He used to make awesome wheels, all hand made and spoke tied. He was by far the most powerful rider in our bunch, and there were some good riders in there like Brett Dutton and Matty White, but on the flat coming back from Waterfall once the big guy put the hammer down - it was struggle street to stay with him. In saying that though, Lucy Tyler may have had bigger legs than Marty back then

I remember Vinnicombe saying that he had to be careful taking off in the 1km and pursuit as the frames he was using would flex too much and be inefficient

He was saying that if he was able to ride today's carbon frames he'd be a few seconds faster for sure!

I can remember following Trevor Gadd (1978 Commonwealth sprint
and tandem sprint silvers, 1977 Worlds kilo 5th) in a sprint workout
and the steel 531 bike he was riding was flexing so much at the 100
to go mark of a flying 200 (on an outdoor 333) that I backed off and
swung up positive that it was about to disintegrate...it didn't but
it sure freaked me out. If I recall correctly it wasn't his bike; he was
testing out another guys MKM (I think) to give him an opinion. The
other guy was a decent local rider but no where near as strong as
Trevor and rode the bike for years with no issues I'm aware off.

I don't know Vinnicombe but I did know the late Roger Green, the
British born Aussie gym owner and athletics coach who had some
input into the lifting regimes of both Vinnicombe and Eadie so I'm
confident either of them could twist a steel bike as well.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

Getting away from the Evans debate, 3 interesting ones

Adam Hansen
Allan Davis
Henk Vogels

?????

There's no smoke around Hansen other than his crazy run of GT finishes, he's never been implicated AFAIK.

Davis was almost certainly mentioned in the Op Puerto documents, there was a rider initials AD, with a very different regime to the other riders who were all climbers/hilly classics guys. This also correlated with a very good run of form with Liberty Seguros.

Vogels rode for GAN and Mercury in the late 90's with good results at Paris-Roubaix, Paris-Tours and as a lead out man, so make of that what you will His dad was an Olympic trackie though and his brother was quite handy as well.

Hansen seems to have his head screwed on and has a lot of outside interests. Has his own business but still maintains a cycling career. It's possible to do all three GTS and target maybe one stage per race like Hansen. It's been done in the past plus he does not ride other races so he gets a reasonable amount of time off between GTs . Hansen would be the one I would be the most confident about. Vogels a bit more dodgy maybe while Davis not so confident. Hansen has always had the reputation of a hard man with great recuperative powers. Once his season starts he would not have to train much but I'm sure he works hard in the off season as well as doing races like the Crocodile Trophy which is not for the faint hearted !

 

[The Hegelian]

Agreed - Vogels and Davis: no way.

Hansen - I guess it depends on how we view the contemporary peleton. There are no obvious red flags. I'd be happy to assume clean until or unless there is some reasonable cause not to.

Likewise some of the Orica domestiques - Hepburn, Durbridge etc. Pretty good pedigree and very little impact means the same assumption applies.

 

[blackcat]

is this the thread for clean aussie pros or the thred for clen aussie pros?

 

[42x16ss]

I'm cautious of the production line of very good trackies turned roadies produced by WAIS. They have had a surprisingly good hit rate the last 8 years or so from a relatively small talent pool - Meyer Bros, Durbridge, Sunderland, Freiburg (2013 Omnium WC), Robert Power (2nd Tour de l'Avenir 2014), Brad Linfield, Josie Tomic, Mel Hoskins, Jess Allen, Isabella King are some good examples.

It doesn't help that the former head coach is facing civil charges (not doping related but athlete related and serious)

 

[blackcat]

Re:

I'm cautious of the production line of very good trackies turned roadies produced by WAIS. They have had a surprisingly good hit rate the last 8 years or so from a relatively small talent pool - Meyer Bros, Durbridge, Sunderland, Freiburg (2013 Omnium WC), Robert Power (2nd Tour de l'Avenir 2014), Brad Linfield, Josie Tomic, Mel Hoskins, Jess Allen, Isabella King are some good examples.

It doesn't help that the former head coach is facing civil charges (not doping related but athlete related and serious)

nothing compared to the female swim success in brisbane

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

I'm cautious of the production line of very good trackies turned roadies produced by WAIS. They have had a surprisingly good hit rate the last 8 years or so from a relatively small talent pool - Meyer Bros, Durbridge, Sunderland, Freiburg (2013 Omnium WC), Robert Power (2nd Tour de l'Avenir 2014), Brad Linfield, Josie Tomic, Mel Hoskins, Jess Allen, Isabella King are some good examples.

It doesn't help that the former head coach is facing civil charges (not doping related but athlete related and serious)

nothing compared to the female swim success in brisbane

True! QAS just take the p!ss with their swimmers. Had a handy hit rate with riders too lately - Hepburn, McCarthy, Dougall (MTN-Qhubeka), Jordan Kerby (Drapac), Shara Gillow

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I'm cautious of the production line of very good trackies turned roadies produced by WAIS. They have had a surprisingly good hit rate the last 8 years or so from a relatively small talent pool - Meyer Bros, Durbridge, Sunderland, Freiburg (2013 Omnium WC), Robert Power (2nd Tour de l'Avenir 2014), Brad Linfield, Josie Tomic, Mel Hoskins, Jess Allen, Isabella King are some good examples.

It doesn't help that the former head coach is facing civil charges (not doping related but athlete related and serious)

nothing compared to the female swim success in brisbane

True! QAS just take the p!ss with their swimmers. Had a handy hit rate with riders too lately - Hepburn, McCarthy, Dougall (MTN-Qhubeka), Jordan Kerby (Drapac), Shara Gillow

i would give cyclists a pass before the swimmers, it is stafan widmar's groups, and another group, two squads, they won the world relay 4x100 female one year last decade, three or four, were from brisbane = NOT NORMAL

 

[Freddythefrog]

I can remember following Trevor Gadd.......

I don't know Vinnicombe but I did know the late Roger Green, the
British born Aussie gym owner and athletics coach who had some
input into the lifting regimes of both Vinnicombe and Eadie so I'm
confident either of them could twist a steel bike as well.

It is just a giant circle with the Officials facilitating by burying their heads in the sand. Vinnicombe is the guy who had the telephone conversation with Godkin warning him that he didn't mind what he was doing but to ensure he didn't get caught. And then do you know what - he went and got caught and tried to implicate Godkin. Godkin ran a mile, "not me guv, I'm your honest to goodness UCI official, how could I condone doping". but good old Martyn had a letter from guess who - Shane Sutton's soigneur at the Tour de France, who just happened to work with Dr Jimmy Ledingham out of Meadowbank and was later done for injecting minors with a cocktail of drugs with (let's just complete our tour round the globe to ensure this sport is capable of spreading corruption to every corner of the planet) Chris Carmichael. http://velonews.competitor.com/2006/04/news/six-years-later-strock-case-comes-to-court_9763

Commical was able to stay out of the press and not have his role officially confirmed in a court of law by settling out of court with Strock and Kaiter, earlier. That was around 2003 as the heat was on Lance from Walsh. Last thing Lance needed was Commical getting exposed as injecting minors with a cocktail of steroids without them knowing.

Well back to this letter. In this letter Fraser not only covered the supply of anabolic steroids but told Martin how to sell them to his mates (oh to have a friend like the good Martin !). It was such a good letter he kept it. And then when he is busted he showed it to the authorities. Damn and blast, Angus should have taken a leaf out of a politician's book like Godkin and not committed to paper but just called. Next thing you know the authorities got in touch with the GB authorities and Fraser who at that time being paid out of public funds to work supporting cycling and athletics in Scotland (you just can't make this up), was deemed too hot to continue to employ. And poor Angus was sacked. And yes, let's close that circle - Steve Paulding and the City of Edinburgh sprint boys were just getting going at that time. Paulding became National Sprint Coach for the GB riders and told them lots of useful stuff.

Yes it was the same Jimmy Ledingham that featured in the BBC Panorama documentary busting Wells.

That is why I say that Brian Cookson will sleep a little more uneasily every night from now on.

Cummon boys. lets hear it for Martyn and big Trev bending frames - pop the right pills and you can do anything - win 7 Tours, even set the hour record (even the "great Lance didn't do that") Oh did you hear Sir Brad Dr Michael Hutchinson ? I'm going all weak at the knees thinking of the greatness of Sir Brad and then there is Sir Chris and Sir Dave - Oh so many heros, it is all so wonderful. Listening and hearing all the sh1te in the media this week about British Cycling stars, had me cringing.

The only thing the officials don't want is anyone who doesn't share a sewer-based moral code, following this trail of excrement around the planet.

 

[darwin553]

Re: Re:

Are you saying that only pure climbers are "natural" GT talents???

How are you going to explain The Badger's palmares?

GT talents are, generally, all rounders who recover very well. Pure climbers are the exception here, not the rule.

I was indeed speaking about Evans as a climber (see the post to which hrotha responded).
I was labelling him a mediocre talent mainly on the basis of his poor climbing style viz. a notable lack of souplesse when going uphill.
Not saying he didn't go fast uphill, he did, and that's exactly the point: I'd argue he compensated for a lack of natural climbing talent by doping outrageously.

Who cares about his "poor climbing style" as a measure of his achievements? You think Froome has a style that is much better? His climbing abilities certainly can't be denied.

As long as he gets up the mountain in good time that is the main thing.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Are you saying that only pure climbers are "natural" GT talents???

How are you going to explain The Badger's palmares?

GT talents are, generally, all rounders who recover very well. Pure climbers are the exception here, not the rule.

I was indeed speaking about Evans as a climber (see the post to which hrotha responded).
I was labelling him a mediocre talent mainly on the basis of his poor climbing style viz. a notable lack of souplesse when going uphill.
Not saying he didn't go fast uphill, he did, and that's exactly the point: I'd argue he compensated for a lack of natural climbing talent by doping outrageously.

Who cares about his "poor climbing style" as a measure of his achievements? You think Froome has a style that is much better? His climbing abilities certainly can't be denied.

As long as he gets up the mountain in good time that is the main thing.

I think what is being said is that pre EPO the strongest climbers rarely had ugly technique (unlike Evans, Froome, Olano, Botero etc) and the strongest climbers were rarely good TTers (unlike Pantani, Basso, Rasmussen, Contador etc at their best). IMHO Evans has been turned from a TTer who can climb a bit into a GT contender, not unlike Armstrong or Ullrich.

EPO and transfusions totally change things.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

Are you saying that only pure climbers are "natural" GT talents???

How are you going to explain The Badger's palmares?

GT talents are, generally, all rounders who recover very well. Pure climbers are the exception here, not the rule.

I was indeed speaking about Evans as a climber (see the post to which hrotha responded).
I was labelling him a mediocre talent mainly on the basis of his poor climbing style viz. a notable lack of souplesse when going uphill.
Not saying he didn't go fast uphill, he did, and that's exactly the point: I'd argue he compensated for a lack of natural climbing talent by doping outrageously.

Who cares about his "poor climbing style" as a measure of his achievements? You think Froome has a style that is much better? His climbing abilities certainly can't be denied.

As long as he gets up the mountain in good time that is the main thing.

I think what is being said is that pre EPO the strongest climbers rarely had ugly technique (unlike Evans, Froome, Olano, Botero etc) and the strongest climbers were rarely good TTers (unlike Pantani, Basso, Rasmussen, Contador etc at their best). IMHO Evans has been turned from a TTer who can climb a bit into a GT contender, not unlike Armstrong or Ullrich.

EPO and transfusions totally change things.

Most mountain bikers of note can climb a bit ! Evans, Rasmussen, Peraud, Hesjedal and many others. The whole reason Evans improved his TT was because he was not that good at it. I also think this was partly responsible for the physical changes. Merckx had an ugly technique and was never a pure climber. The greatest rider of all time. Basso is not a pure climber, he is a diesel like Evans, he hardly ever gets out of the seat unlike Pantani or Contador. Evans does not ride in the seat much either but he is not a pure climber. I think style has little impact on results except in TTs. But even Evans did not have a great position in the TT but still could do a strong ride.

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

To throw another name into the mix, Jay Sweet.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Are you saying that only pure climbers are "natural" GT talents???

How are you going to explain The Badger's palmares?

GT talents are, generally, all rounders who recover very well. Pure climbers are the exception here, not the rule.

I was indeed speaking about Evans as a climber (see the post to which hrotha responded).
I was labelling him a mediocre talent mainly on the basis of his poor climbing style viz. a notable lack of souplesse when going uphill.
Not saying he didn't go fast uphill, he did, and that's exactly the point: I'd argue he compensated for a lack of natural climbing talent by doping outrageously.

Who cares about his "poor climbing style" as a measure of his achievements? You think Froome has a style that is much better? His climbing abilities certainly can't be denied.

As long as he gets up the mountain in good time that is the main thing.

I think what is being said is that pre EPO the strongest climbers rarely had ugly technique (unlike Evans, Froome, Olano, Botero etc) and the strongest climbers were rarely good TTers (unlike Pantani, Basso, Rasmussen, Contador etc at their best). IMHO Evans has been turned from a TTer who can climb a bit into a GT contender, not unlike Armstrong or Ullrich.

EPO and transfusions totally change things.

Most mountain bikers of note can climb a bit ! Evans, Rasmussen, Peraud, Hesjedal and many others. The whole reason Evans improved his TT was because he was not that good at it. I also think this was partly responsible for the physical changes. Merckx had an ugly technique and was never a pure climber. The greatest rider of all time. Basso is not a pure climber, he is a diesel like Evans, he hardly ever gets out of the seat unlike Pantani or Contador. Evans does not ride in the seat much either but he is not a pure climber. I think style has little impact on results except in TTs. But even Evans did not have a great position in the TT but still could do a strong ride.

Pre ban, Basso was second only to Armstrong in the mountains. In two TDFs the only time Armstrong took on him in the climbs was time bonuses and the Alpe TT in '04. Then there was his destruction of the '06 Giro.

Evans' TT technique wasn't textbook like Vino or Ullrich but it was still quite good and he never had problems getting very low on the bike, just look back at what Lotto and BMC had to do in terms of stems/headtubes to accommodate it.

MTBers usually start out as punchy on short climbs with a TT due to the nature of the discipline compared to road riding. Hesjedal started as a Ardennes guy, Evans suffered on the long, steep climbs until at least 04/05, Peraud is more of a TTer for a GC rider and Rasmussen- we all know what was going on there...

In regards to Merckx, he didn't look like Pantani or Mottet on the climbs but compared to guys like I mentioned earlier he was a work of art. Oxygen vector doping seems to have allowed strong guys with wasteful technique to climb at crazy speeds.

 

[The Hegelian]

The stories about Vinnicombe are great!

Anyone remember the tv ad he was featured in? "His energy source......LUCOZADE!"

Err, no.

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

To throw another name into the mix, Jay Sweet.

Didn't he go the same way as guys like Duncan Smith, Will Ford, Ben Johnson and Ben King (not the Cannondale King)? Great junior, went nowhere as a pro and retired young because of the "requirements"?

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

Yeah, something like that. Very quick sprinter in juniors, went to Big Mat-Auber, was offered drugs, declined. Made the 99 Tour de France squad, eliminated for finishing outside the time limit on a mountain stage. Was injected with cortisone against his wishes, left Big Mat- Auber, 2 years on smaller teams then retired at 28 is the story that he told. Seems true so a victim of doping ruining his chances at a career.

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

I think I read somewhere once that Evans has quite long arms which might effect how he looks on a bike if true.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

The whole reason Evans improved his TT was because he was not that good at it.

this is not correct.

I think at the 94 or 95 World Junior rr which Evans went along to with the jnr world selections for the rr, Evans rode, plus he rode the tt. He borrowed Robbie Mcewen's bike cos he did not have a chrono bike.

He came third (coulda been second). Another Australian rider won it, Josh Collingwood, who then left cycling for about half a dozen years and studied medicine to be a doc. He did turn up at some domestic races in Australia in the mid-2000s tho.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

The whole reason Evans improved his TT was because he was not that good at it.

this is not correct.

I think at the 94 or 95 World Junior rr which Evans went along to with the jnr world selections for the rr, Evans rode, plus he rode the tt. He borrowed Robbie Mcewen's bike cos he did not have a chrono bike.

He came third (coulda been second). Another Australian rider won it, Josh Collingwood, who then left cycling for about half a dozen years and studied medicine to be a doc. He did turn up at some domestic races in Australia in the mid-2000s tho.

Collingwood was a few years older than me (I'm only 34) so don't know much about him. From what I heard he was a beast though, and could have had a decent pro career if so inclined.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

The whole reason Evans improved his TT was because he was not that good at it.

this is not correct.

I think at the 94 or 95 World Junior rr which Evans went along to with the jnr world selections for the rr, Evans rode, plus he rode the tt. He borrowed Robbie Mcewen's bike cos he did not have a chrono bike.

He came third (coulda been second). Another Australian rider won it, Josh Collingwood, who then left cycling for about half a dozen years and studied medicine to be a doc. He did turn up at some domestic races in Australia in the mid-2000s tho.

I was talking about his pro years. He supposedly did a lot of work on his TT pre 2007. Maybe was more about position and wind tunnel testing and such. Obviously Evans was comparing himself to Armstrong, Ullrich and co at that stage and even Leipheimer who was a very good TT rider.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

To throw another name into the mix, Jay Sweet.

Didn't he go the same way as guys like Duncan Smith, Will Ford, Ben Johnson and Ben King (not the Cannondale King)? Great junior, went nowhere as a pro and retired young because of the "requirements"?

He seemed to be heading for the top as a bunch sprinter and then just disappeared.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

The whole reason Evans improved his TT was because he was not that good at it.

this is not correct.

I think at the 94 or 95 World Junior rr which Evans went along to with the jnr world selections for the rr, Evans rode, plus he rode the tt. He borrowed Robbie Mcewen's bike cos he did not have a chrono bike.

He came third (coulda been second). Another Australian rider won it, Josh Collingwood, who then left cycling for about half a dozen years and studied medicine to be a doc. He did turn up at some domestic races in Australia in the mid-2000s tho.

I was talking about his pro years. He supposedly did a lot of work on his TT pre 2007. Maybe was more about position and wind tunnel testing and such. Obviously Evans was comparing himself to Armstrong, Ullrich and co at that stage and even Leipheimer who was a very good TT rider.

That's right. He was aiming for a TT that would put him on the TDF podium, something you don't aspire to unless you're most of the way there already.

 

[sniper]

What about Trent Lowe?
Good interview with him here, implicitly lashing out at (I'm assuming) Vaughters and White:

Essentially I feel I became quite unwell (health wise) because I was given racing and training schedules from people who have now admitted to their own doping practices. When I chose to work with such people, this was not known to me. Therefore their advice is almost entirely based on their own experiences, that of a doped athlete. I am convinced that to complete the workload I was given on an ongoing basis, one would have to dope in order to recover. I was not doping and therefore my health suffered a lot from such over training. Sadly I believe this scenario may still be ongoing in professional cycling, and I feel it still has a very long way to go. It was a mistake to put my trust in some of the people I did for my training and racing schedule.

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/02/trent-lowe-life-after-cycling/