Clean Cyclists ?

[BroDeal]

You can never "prove" a rider is "clean".

Bruyneel can look them in the eye.

 

[pmcg76]

Nice to see that people are enjoying a good debate. In general I try to avoid hurling vitriol although I do admit to being really strecthced by those posters who seem devoid of logic because of their loyalty to certain riders.

Myself and Ludwig are on the same page in that we readily admit that doping is a serious problem in cycling. We just have varying opinons in our way of judging how widespread it is. I dont think he will change his opinions but I understand his position, any cycling fan who has been following this sport for the last 10/20/30 years have been left deflated so many times, its hard not to be cynical. I am trying to be optimistic and just feel it is unfair to take an all-guilty approach.

Ludwig would like riders to speak out but then says he has no faith in Garmin, to me this is hypocritical as this can be thrown at any rider who speaks out, they could be judged as self-serving hypocrites. Everyone refers to Kohl but he has named very few people or riders etc. He has highlighted the practices not the people involved so either hs is still ruled by ometra or he just doesnt know enough of what other people are doing. As I mentioned in my previous post, ometra continues to exist for a number of reasons and always will, it will always be the biggest barrier to an open sport but to me, its human nature. I would like to hear some suggestions on how to defeat ometra.

The one thing I dont like is riders enforcing ometra in a very public manner in the way Lance chased down Simeoni in 2004. For me that sends totally the wrong message, especially coming from a cyclist who has consistenly stated that they are clean and built a persona based on that ideal. Its one thing to conform with ometra but to enforce it so blatanly is insulting to fellow riders and fans.

I look at teams like Boguyes Telecom and Fdjeux and I say to myself, none of their riders are ever busted or are never linked to anything in regards to doping. Why not. They must be clean to some degree at least. If riders like Tommy Voeckler can compete, why not lots of other riders. Maybe Sandy Casar could be a potential Tour winner if the sport was cleaner, we dont know which is the sad thing.

There are also no hard and fast rules in regards to labelling people with doping, top 10, top 50, doped in the past, dodgy teams etc. There are exceptions to each myth. Didier Rous is the perfect example to me, a guy who was caught up in Festina but who seemed to become quite anti-doping after this and rode for Boguyes Telecom and is now a DS there.

I also dont like the idea of people hating on those who are caught, to me there is no point hating a top guy who is caught when in all likelihood, most of the others top guys could get busted also. To me its not a case of busted: evil cheater versus not busted: angelic saint, that is too simplistic. As I say innocent until shown to be guilty but dont crucify the guys who are guilty. However I do feel bans should be longer, maybe 4 years reduced to 2 with explicit details of doping. We have differing ideas on how to fix the sport but that if for another thread I think.

Overall, my attitude to doping is that it exists and is a serious problem in cycling. It could be endemic or it could be a smaller percentage than we think, we just dont know for definite and thus it is unfair to label everyone without the proof. You will rarely see me slate any riders even if caught(well maybe one exception) because I am realsitic enough to know there could be plenty more. I know this is a forum and thus the name of the game is speculation so its all part of the fun.

 

[Ferminal]

Everyone refers to Kohl but he has named very few people or riders etc. He has highlighted the practices not the people involved so either hs is still ruled by ometra or he just doesnt know enough of what other people are doing

Do we know the exact details? There have been plenty of reports that "Kohl has spoken to authorities regarding his accusations" but either he didn't know enough (and subsequently sounds like a bit of a whinger) or the authorities weren't listening.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

As I mentioned in my previous post, ometra continues to exist for a number of reasons and always will, it will always be the biggest barrier to an open sport but to me, its human nature. I would like to hear some suggestions on how to defeat ometra.

I agree that the Omerta is the biggest barrier which is enforced by all the old guard still involved in Cycling - the DS's, Doctors, Race Organisers and some administrators who escape sanction.

I have 2 theories to break the Omerta. One is to have the set sanction for a 1st offense set at 4 years - however a rider offering information would get a reduced ban, currently the 2 year sanction with a few months off is not a viable incentive.

Also - as is being discussed on another thread - is to make the teams responsible when they have a doping case in their team. At present the team management suffer no penalty for having a guilty rider. If the UCI were able to fine teams from their prize-money pool it would effect all team members, this could offer an incentive for team management to scrutinize new recruits and stop in-house doping networks and for teammates to report suspicious behavior of other teammates.

 

[ludwig]

Ludwig would like riders to speak out but then says he has no faith in Garmin, to me this is hypocritical as this can be thrown at any rider who speaks out, they could be judged as self-serving hypocrites. Everyone refers to Kohl but he has named very few people or riders etc. He has highlighted the practices not the people involved so either hs is still ruled by ometra or he just doesnt know enough of what other people are doing. As I mentioned in my previous post, ometra continues to exist for a number of reasons and always will, it will always be the biggest barrier to an open sport but to me, its human nature. I would like to hear some suggestions on how to defeat ometra.

Not true. Kohl named his supplier and was instrumental in exposing the Humanplasma network (including several prominent cyclists involved). I'm sure he and Jaksche could have done more to expose individual riders....but it's not their job to harm fellow cyclists--they have done plenty to expose how doping works, and their reward was being uncerimoniously booted from the sport.

In any case, neither Kohl nor Jaksche have/had any hope of getting hired by Garmin, a team that is loyal to the omerta code. Garmin's core set of riders are ex-Disco, ex-Cofidis, ex-CSC--ie they came up in environments where doping was/is encouraged, and as far as I'm aware no Garmin rider has a history of bucking omerta. While you probably won't be convinced by anything less than hard evidence of team-internal doping, the fact remains that given the culture and results of Garmin it is difficult to believe they prepare any differently from comparable pro teams like CSC or Columbia. Garmin/Columbia seem to represent a new version of omerta that values plausible deniability and keeping the dirt off sponsors while continuing to compete at the highest level. Either way, the only evidence to suggest they are any cleaner is they SAY they are anti-doping...but what do they DO to combat omerta and promote clean sport? If they are really anti-doping, then why don't they hire whistle blowers and/or Pharmstrong antaganists?

It doesn't seem possible to defeat omerta without either legalizing the dope or fullproof testing. Neither are likely to happen, so we are probably stuck with omerta. You could try to toss the doping DSes and bring in new leadership, but that is easier said then done--the power brokers in cycling are deeply entrenched. Furthermore, it's impossible to wish away the very real advantages of blood doping in an endurance sport. As long as the sport is driven by profits, cyclists will do what they can to to get ahead. So maybe an answer would be to put every pro cyclist on the same pay grade (I know...never gonna happen). Either way, if there is a solution to the doping program, it would have to be pretty radical, and certain perennial characters (think of Verdruggen, Riis, McQuaid, Bruyneel, Echavarri, Levefere, etc.) would need to be shown the door.

 

[pmcg76]

Not true. Kohl named his supplier and was instrumental in exposing the Humanplasma network (including several prominent cyclists involved). I'm sure he and Jaksche could have done more to expose individual riders....but it's not their job to harm fellow cyclists--they have done plenty to expose how doping works, and their reward was being uncerimoniously booted from the sport.

In any case, neither Kohl nor Jaksche have/had any hope of getting hired by Garmin, a team that is loyal to the omerta code. Garmin's core set of riders are ex-Disco, ex-Cofidis, ex-CSC--ie they came up in environments where doping was/is encouraged, and as far as I'm aware no Garmin rider has a history of bucking omerta. While you probably won't be convinced by anything less than hard evidence of team-internal doping, the fact remains that given the culture and results of Garmin it is difficult to believe they prepare any differently from comparable pro teams like CSC or Columbia. Garmin/Columbia seem to represent a new version of omerta that values plausible deniability and keeping the dirt off sponsors while continuing to compete at the highest level. Either way, the only evidence to suggest they are any cleaner is they SAY they are anti-doping...but what do they DO to combat omerta and promote clean sport? If they are really anti-doping, then why don't they hire whistle blowers and/or Pharmstrong antaganists?

It doesn't seem possible to defeat omerta without either legalizing the dope or fullproof testing. Neither are likely to happen, so we are probably stuck with omerta. You could try to toss the doping DSes and bring in new leadership, but that is easier said then done--the power brokers in cycling are deeply entrenched. Furthermore, it's impossible to wish away the very real advantages of blood doping in an endurance sport. As long as the sport is driven by profits, cyclists will do what they can to to get ahead. So maybe an answer would be to put every pro cyclist on the same pay grade (I know...never gonna happen). Either way, if there is a solution to the doping program, it would have to be pretty radical, and certain perennial characters (think of Verdruggen, Riis, McQuaid, Bruyneel, Echavarri, Levefere, etc.) would need to be shown the door.

But isnt failing to name other riders conforming to ometra also. Ok, lets take Garmin, you are taking the leopard unable to change its spot argument. I gave the example of Didier Rous in my previous post, any opinion on Rous. I dont think riders actively want to dope, they are just faced with that choice. Maybe in an environment where there is no pressure to dope, they feel less inclined to dope.

Lets say the Garmin riders spoke out and said this is what was going on at Discovery/CSC/ Cofidis. Who is going to suffer, firstly the accused teams will defend themselves by requiring proof so it is only logical, an investigation would need to be launched like Puerto except it would need to be finished.

A investigation of that magnitude would take years. Who would carry out the investigation? The UCI. lol. All the while Garmin would be riding under a cloud against the other teams. There is also the real possibility that some of the Garmin riders would have to out themselves as former dopers to gain credibility. Imagine how that would impact on Garmin as a team. There would be a good chance that Garmin would suffer the most out of all teams involved. The question is, would it be worth it in the long run for Garmin. It would require a guranteed amnesty from the UCI if they talked, they would probably need to be put on a witness protection programme or something.

Whatever about doping at Garmin, I definitely dont think they are all at it. Again, I dont know either way. I dont know if you saw the interivews by Paul Kimmage in The Times last year during the Tour(Sorry, dont have the link, I am sure others do) I found them very interesting, JV didnt seem to be denying his past misdemeanors, he didnt admit it but was clearly drawing a picture for Kimmage. I dont think they are trying to cover up their previous crimes, they just recognise that if they talk, they will suffer more than others.

If Garmin are doping big-time and just spinning PR, then it is totally criminal, even worse than anything Lance pulled. I think a general amnesty might be the only way to defeat doping but that requires huge bravery from the UCI, all the teams and riders, it could only be done in private with the involved parties and we would still be very cynical. I know others on here are in favour of a total amnesty as well. How it could be done without sponsors pulling out en-masse and riders being crucified in public is the key.

Another key would be the UCI being proactive rather than reactive, instead of relying on confessions from guys like Kohl etc, listen to guys like Fred Grappe, Antoine Vayer and take on board their suggestions as to what is happening in the sport. Make it a requirement for ProTour teams to publish blood results monthly but that leads to problems I mentioned before. Perhaps, the UCI needs a confession box like the Catholic church in which riders can confess their sins anytine, anonymously without the risk of sanction, maybe they have already something in place. I dont know.

I agree on your last point, as long as their is sport and money, there will be cheating. Thats not just sport, thats life.

 

[luckyboy]

I have really got to the point now where I think that the only thing that would catch out big numbers of dopers are police raids during the big races. (It is late, so I'm probably forgetting some options though)

I can't see an amnesty working and the testing clearly doesn't work, but does anyone else have any ideas?

 

[craig1985]

When asked a few years ago if the 'AC' in the Puerto files was Alberto Contador, Jorg Jaksche said 'no comment'. Either he is protecting Contador or protecting himself from any potential law suits.

 

[python]

When asked a few years ago if the 'AC' in the Puerto files was Alberto Contador, Jorg Jaksche said 'no comment'. Either he is protecting Contador or protecting himself from any potential law suits.

not necessarily. he may not actually know who ac was//is if only suspecting.

jaksche is on record saying several strange things, like he believed flandis may have been set up or something. dont recall the exact phrase now...jaksche was asking for big money to sell his stories and i personally feel he lost much initial credibility he was credited with

 

[craig1985]

not necessarily. he may not actually know who ac was//is if only suspecting.

jaksche is on record saying several strange things, like he believed flandis may have been set up or something. dont recall the exact phrase now...jaksche was asking for big money to sell his stories and i personally feel he lost much initial credibility he was credited with

That was the one thing Vinokourov accused him of when Jaksche first said what was going at Telekom and when he went to CSC for a season (2004). Jaksche told his story to Bild, from what I understand is a tabloid (?).

 

[workingclasshero]

That was the one thing Vinokourov accused him of when Jaksche first said what was going at Telekom and when he went to CSC for a season (2004). Jaksche told his story to Bild, from what I understand is a tabloid (?).

it's not only a tabloid, it's laughable as far as a newspaper goes. nothing wrong with a tabloid in the right sense of the word. but bild is like news of the world meets hello! meets sex hungry editor

 

[ludwig]

Jaksche sold his story to Spiegel

Big difference--Bild is a ridiculous tabloid; Spiegel is fairly serious journalism that no doubt vetted the story (as is the Sueddeutsche, which pioneered much of the anti-doping journalism coming out of Germany). And bear in mind Jaksche's justification for taking the 25,000 euros was that he couldn't practice his profession after being blacklisted because he was named in Puerto.