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Clean Cyclists ?

I place some faith in those who have had a definite decrease in performance from the time they were proved to be or presumably using a full on doping program. That means riders like Millar, Cunego, Zabriskie, etc. The post-Operation Puerto Valverde probably would have been on such a list, but this year's Vuelta performance now eliminates him from consideration.

Those sorts of riders might not be completely clean, but it appears that they are not doing what they were in the past. Let's call them "cleanish."
 
Jul 23, 2009
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luckyboy said:
(Most) French riders?

This is what I think anyway, and why I like em (and the attacks)

I would have a difficult time stating a particular nationality is clean since I believe that human traits do not know national boundaries.

It is possible some may think that the French riders are clean because they tend not to be dominant in the GC, however, the opposite of that logic would be that dominance is circumstantial evidence of doping. Not sure I want to buy into that claim either.
 

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CentralCaliBike said:
I would have a difficult time stating a particular nationality is clean since I believe that human traits do not know national boundaries.

It is possible some may think that the French riders are clean because they tend not to be dominant in the GC, however, the opposite of that logic would be that dominance is circumstantial evidence of doping. Not sure I want to buy into that claim either.

Just a clarification - you are certainly correct that human traits do not know international boundaries. However after the Festina Affair in 1998 new anti-doping laws were enacted in France and all the athletes living there are subject to at least 4 controls per year - in effect the French have had a system of the Bio-Passport in place for many years.

While not a perfect system - it has narrowed the opportunity for their athletes to dope. The most successful French cyclist of the last decade is arguably Jalabert - he set up residence in Switzerland ;)
 
Dr. Maserati said:
Just a clarification - you are certainly correct that human traits do not know international boundaries. However after the Festina Affair in 1998 new anti-doping laws were enacted in France and all the athletes living there are subject to at least 4 controls per year - in effect the French have had a system of the Bio-Passport in place for many years.

While not a perfect system - it has narrowed the opportunity for their athletes to dope. The most successful French cyclist of the last decade is arguably Jalabert - he set up residence in Switzerland ;)

Do you include also non-french cyclists? Those who live in France and/or ride for French teams?
 

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Von Mises said:
Do you include also non-french cyclists? Those who live in France and/or ride for French teams?

Not to the quaterly checks - only those who are members of the French Federation. Jaja had a Swiss licence.
However people who reside in France are subject to the out of competition controls done by the AFLD.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
Just a clarification - you are certainly correct that human traits do not know international boundaries. However after the Festina Affair in 1998 new anti-doping laws were enacted in France and all the athletes living there are subject to at least 4 controls per year - in effect the French have had a system of the Bio-Passport in place for many years.

While not a perfect system - it has narrowed the opportunity for their athletes to dope. The most successful French cyclist of the last decade is arguably Jalabert - he set up residence in Switzerland ;)

I will certainly buy this logic as to why French riders are cleaner than others, at least as to the ones living in France.
 
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Hang on.............



wait for it............



wait.................



almost.............



They all bathe regularly!



mmmmm......never get tired of that.
 
I noticed alot more suffering in last years TDF than usual. This year was fast but some big names were back. At least there is hope that things are more cleanish than in the past. boggles my suspiscious mind though that Armstrong has never been caught ( in know about alleged epo in 99 and that armstrong is a tired topic here ).

Im assuming that most non positive riders are using things not even on the market yet. Seems what is more prevalent is autologous recharges. Hence the suspiscion of Armstrong's numbers recently. I have to wonder at the procedures used to avoid doping controls. its probably as complicated as cooking up the recipes. I still would like an explanation how Landis tested negative before and after his testosterone positive. I used to be in a sport that steroids and test were a mainstay and it took months to get it out of your system. Is there any info out there on how riders avoid doping controls ?

In the end, its still a great sport and unfortunately, no pro sport is immune to this stuff. Hopefully as the guard changes, more riders will refuse to go that route.
 
zealot66 said:
I used to be in a sport that steroids and test were a mainstay and it took months to get it out of your system. Is there any info out there on how riders avoid doping controls ?

Autologous blood transfusions - blood with 'normal' retic numbers put in before races/stages, but after the tests - then dilute back down afterwards (vol. expanders etc), using stuff that isn't tested for yet (inc. stuff we don't know about), and/or microdosing so they stay within the 'legal' limits. No proper HGH test yet is there?
 
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CentralCaliBike said:
I will certainly buy this logic as to why French riders are cleaner than others, at least as to the ones living in France.

dave millar lived in france.. ;)

not being a fanboy, but obvioulsy the fact i am british will draw that allegation... But cav.. i have no reason to know why he would dope.. Young, dominating the world, and with a massive future ahead of him, the potential to become the greatest ever sprinter... there is surely too much to lose..

maybe in a f ew years time when hes struggling a bit he might try something to keep himself on top, and then do a bit of coke to cover it up... ooh.. who does that sound like.. :D
 
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dimspace said:
dave millar lived in france.. ;)

not being a fanboy, but obvioulsy the fact i am british will draw that allegation... But cav.. i have no reason to know why he would dope.. Young, dominating the world, and with a massive future ahead of him, the potential to become the greatest ever sprinter... there is surely too much to lose..

maybe in a f ew years time when hes struggling a bit he might try something to keep himself on top, and then do a bit of coke to cover it up... ooh.. who does that sound like.. :D
There's one major, and I mean battleship sized, hole in your logic. Certainly it would be idiotic for him to dope if his current performance is clean, but if he is on dope then all those wins, his huge future and potential is probably in large part because of the doping. In that case the "to much to lose" argument works against him cleaning up, not staying clean. No sense in changing a winning model.

Besides, that argument applies to all succesfull riders. Or doesn't apply as the case may be. It makes far more sense to suspect doping based on succes, than to rule it out.
 
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Race Radio said:
But David held a British license and was not subject to the longitudinal controls the French riders are.

but surely they can still be visited by french testers?

and sorry... for some reason i dont have too much faith in french testing procedures and labs.. i think the french riders are cleaner than others, but i dont think its because of the testing over there.. i think its more a mentality
 
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Cerberus said:
There's one major, and I mean battleship sized, hole in your logic. Certainly it would be idiotic for him to dope if his current performance is clean, but if he is on dope then all those wins, his huge future and potential is probably in large part because of the doping. In that case the "to much to lose" argument works against him cleaning up, not staying clean. No sense in changing a winning model.

Besides, that argument applies to all succesfull riders. Or doesn't apply as the case may be. It makes far more sense to suspect doping based on succes, than to rule it out.

i can see your point.. one further reason i am likely to think that cav is clean is the amount of riding he has done for the british track team, which i an pretty sure is 100% clean.. the fallout in britain if a pubclicly funded (through the lotterY) sporting olympic enterprise was found to be using PED's would be massive.. it would be heads rolling from the bottom to the very top, including ministerial level.. yes, some will say Brad was/is part of the track team, in which case, the fact brad doesnt rider on teh track anymore would explain how he has had time to take drugs without british cycling to check up on him...
 
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dimspace said:
i can see your point.. one further reason i am likely to think that cav is clean is the amount of riding he has done for the british track team, which i an pretty sure is 100% clean.. the fallout in britain if a pubclicly funded (through the lotterY) sporting olympic enterprise was found to be using PED's would be massive.. it would be heads rolling from the bottom to the very top, including ministerial level.. yes, some will say Brad was/is part of the track team, in which case, the fact brad doesnt rider on teh track anymore would explain how he has had time to take drugs without british cycling to check up on him...
Even if there'd be fallout at most indicates that the team wouldn't want him to use doping, not that he actaully doesn't. Of cause they might have an anti-doping program running, but the problem is that even the most rigerous programs only limit the amount of doping you can use, they don't prevent it 100%.

As a aside if Cavendish is clean then sprinters clearly don't gain much from the amount of doping they can get away with. If they did it just wouldn't be possible for a clean rider to dominate the way Cavendish does.
 
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Cerberus said:
s a aside if Cavendish is clean then sprinters clearly don't gain much from the amount of doping they can get away with. If they did it just wouldn't be possible for a clean rider to dominate the way Cavendish does.


another reason i beleive cav is clean... when he starts contesting the final sprint at PR then ask me again.. ;)
 
Aug 13, 2009
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dimspace said:
but surely they can still be visited by french testers?

and sorry... for some reason i dont have too much faith in french testing procedures and labs.. i think the french riders are cleaner than others, but i dont think its because of the testing over there.. i think its more a mentality

When Millar lived in France he would not have been visited by French testers. The AFLD is only 2 years old.

Why do you not have much faith in French testing? I hope to do not believe the garbage Landis invented.

The reason for cleaner French riders is mostly the testing. They have biological markers of all current French Pros going back to when most were U17 riders. It also cannot be overlooked that in recent years the criminal penalties for doping have increased significantly.
 
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the french authorities just keep the positives secret... its not like they get much uci testing for podiums and wins is it.. ;)

there is of course the other argument... the french must be clean cos they are crap...
 
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With no evidence whatsoever, I believe that Rabobank, Saxobank, Astana (2009 version), Columbia and Garmin probably have organized blood doping programmes and everyone else is freelancing. This means that the riders most likely to be clean are super-talented guys riding as domestiques for the other teams. No-one who is not massively talented could survive in the pro-peloton without doping and no-one, however talented, can rise to the top without doping.

Which, if true, makes pro cycling massively unfair.