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zealot66 said:Im new to the forum. Riding for a few years but was wondering if there is any consensus on who the clean riders are ? probably a dumb question but .....
Lance Armstrong
I like to think that Evans is clean. He has always been very principled about certain things, making a big deal about the Free Tibet issue - an issue that does not directly impinge on his life - and has spoken of the tragedy of what befell Australian Aborigines too - a somewhat controversial issue to bring up. He has nothing to personally gain by this - we have all seen his love for courting the media. All this suggests to me that he is the type of guy likely to take a stance on doping too. Whatever about his earlier teams and their regimes, I think that Cuddles is clean now
I know they have different effects. Ive learned alot looking at this forum and appreciate the interest in the thread. Test came to mind over landis. Knowing test, im baffled how he could test positive inside of clean consecutive tests. perhaps there is something about the patch or cream allegedly used that I dont know. masking agents are not something I know much about.
zealot66 said:
You may know testosterone, but it does not look like you know anything about the testosterone test. There was a two step testing process when FLandis tested positive. The first step was a testosterone/epitestosterone ratio test. If the ratio is less than 4:1 the urine sample is deemed to be negative. A normal ratio is 1:1; but the ratio varies a lot from individual to individual, which is why the wide ratio needs to be used. Using a moderate amount of testosterone the night before a test will result in a ratio of less than 4:1. It was an easy drug to use and not get caught. A reasonably careful athlete can use testosterone his entire career, be tested hundreds of times, and not test over the 4:1 ratio.
The second step is a carbon isotope ratio test that detects artificial testosterone by measuring the difference between the amount of a carbon isotope in the testosterone. Natural testosterone has a different isotope ratio than artificial testosterone because the sources absorb the isotope from the environment differently. There is no way to game this test. When Landis's other samples were tested with the isotope test, those other samples showed that he had been using testosterone throughout the Tour. The tragedy of the 2006 Tour is that if the other top ten on GC had their samples tested with the isotope test, most would have undoubtedly also tested positive.
Supposedly in 2008, the AFLD begain testing for testerone with the isotope test without the initial ratio screen. It is unknown what percentagle of samples are being tested this way, but it does make use of testosterone, at least at the TdF, very risky. With T. Dekker having a previoius sample retrospectively tested for Dynepo, use of testosterone is risky in training and other races if you believe you might get on the UCI's shit list.
blaxland said:
amen to that
some reason i believe andy schleck is clean even though he has that connection with riis.auscyclefan94 said:amen to that
It would take a fair bit of work by a professional cyclist to convince me that he is clean. I've been lied to too many times - both through the media and to my face. I've also been told the truth by too many people.
I would love to believe that Andy Schleck is clean, but I have been given no reason to think that.
The only rider I would even consider betting money to be clean is David Moncoutie. If I were drunk, maybe Pinotti. But probably I would keep my coins in my pocket - it's better to be suspicious, and not be let down, than to believe and be betrayed.
BroDeal said:
Is the Carbon isotope ratio test 100% (or close) or can you still use a certain, though lower, amount of testosterone and still not test positive?
blaxland said:
I have my doubts on Fuglsang and Breschel. Fuglsang is a very good friend, training partner and protege of Rasmussen (Chicken) and Fuglsang is currently defending Rasmussen in the Danish media at every opportunity.
Breschel was 'born and raised' by Cecchini and Rolf Sorensen, not exactly role models for a doping free sport.
Being young, Australian, good looking, eloquent or kind to animals do not rule out doping.
My personal biggest argument for Evans being clean is the fact that that he never fitted into the T-Mobil structure. I like to believe that he refused to "prepare" properly and so was never given he nod to ride le Tour.
I'd be upset if a top Australian road pro got busted for doping, but I'm not going to blindly believe that none of them have skeletons in the closet. Although I like Allan Davis's style and have been a fan of Michael Rogers for a long time, some of their past team relationships have left me with lingering suspicions. And Davis's reported move to the new Astana has only made those suspicions worse. There's also a certain flash-in-the-pan Aussie sprinter (assuming my oh so reliable second-hand sources are correct) who continually amazes me by not having failed a test yet. However if the argument about dramatic drops in performance are indications of an end to doping, maybe I should re-evaluate my stance as it's been a few years since he's done anything note worthy.
I call bull**** on the whole "all French riders are clean" chorus. A lack of results just means a lack of results, nothing more. A rider struggling to hold a contract, or a rider trying to claw there way into the top ranks has as much, if not more, motivation to dope than a rider trying to win a monument. It's undebateable that French riders ooze style and add much needed life to otherwise tedious TdF stages, but to say they're all clean requires a leap of faith.
yeah, rant over, going to switch my brain back to "all Aussies and anyone five years younger than me is clean", that is, unless they're beating Cadel, in which case they're dirty rotten cheats.
I'd be upset if a top Australian road pro got busted for doping, but I'm not going to blindly believe that none of them have skeletons in the closet. Although I like Allan Davis's style and have been a fan of Michael Rogers for a long time, some of their past team relationships have left me with lingering suspicions. And Davis's reported move to the new Astana has only made those suspicions worse. There's also a certain flash-in-the-pan Aussie sprinter (assuming my oh so reliable second-hand sources are correct) who continually amazes me by not having failed a test yet. However if the argument about dramatic drops in performance are indications of an end to doping, maybe I should re-evaluate my stance as it's been a few years since he's done anything note worthy.
I call bull**** on the whole "all French riders are clean" chorus. A lack of results just means a lack of results, nothing more. A rider struggling to hold a contract, or a rider trying to claw there way into the top ranks has as much, if not more, motivation to dope than a rider trying to win a monument. It's undebateable that French riders ooze style and add much needed life to otherwise tedious TdF stages, but to say they're all clean requires a leap of faith.
yeah, rant over, going to switch my brain back to "all Aussies and anyone five years younger than me is clean", that is, unless they're beating Cadel, in which case they're dirty rotten cheats.
badboyberty said:
You could make the same argument about Savoldelli, but he was still a client of Dr. Ferrari. You could also say the same thing about Kevin Livingston, another client of Ferrari.
BroDeal said:
The only argument in Evans' favour from the T-mobile years is the fact that he didn't get alleged food poisoning during the 2004 Vuelta. I believe that he was one of three members of the team who did not fall sick on that night. Zabel was another, which accords with D'Hont's allegations that he had given up EPO and transfusions by then. The rest of the team fell very sick and were forced to withdraw.
I have heard that no-one else from the hotel got food poisoning, but cannot remember the source.
It does nothing to prove that Evans is clean, but it makes me suspect that at that point in time, at least, he was not undergoing transfusions.
I have no reason to think that Evans is clean now, but have heard nothing incriminating about him either recently.
Runitout said:
That's the clincher.
I honestly don't think that he is that bad without transfusions that he is 40 places down in the GC compared to a podium. Perhaps the biggest indication will be in 2010, e.g if he rides a faultless GT and only finishes 10th, or instead hardly loses time to AC in the mountains, then you could determine whether or not he was clean/doped for previous podiums.
The "clean(er)" tag only works because there are no whispers, perhaps it's naive to think he's never touched a blood bag, if he won either of his 2nds, then some people would consider that the first clean winner in how many years? When you put it that way, it's quite hard to fathom.
Deja vu
Reading these threads I wonder if cycling deserves the fans it has, given the limitless faith these fans have in the sport.
I see a sport that is pretty much completely lined up behind the Armstrong/Bruyneel model as the only way to survive. In years past there was some dissension in the ranks....but not now. If there are any clean cyclists, they are keeping their mouths shut and their heads down. In any case, they don't include any of the names above, as no clean cyclist has a chance of a Top 10 in any pro race.
1)Clean cyclists have no chance to compete
2)the testing isn't good enough to catch the doping
Given these two statements why ride clean?
No doubt there are some voices within the sport that are working towards a "cleaner" sport. However there doesn't appear to be anyone agitating for a clean one. I don't see how any rider has the right to be considered clean as a matter of principle in the current sport climate. Unfair, maybe, but that's the reality.
Reading these threads I wonder if cycling deserves the fans it has, given the limitless faith these fans have in the sport.
I see a sport that is pretty much completely lined up behind the Armstrong/Bruyneel model as the only way to survive. In years past there was some dissension in the ranks....but not now. If there are any clean cyclists, they are keeping their mouths shut and their heads down. In any case, they don't include any of the names above, as no clean cyclist has a chance of a Top 10 in any pro race.
1)Clean cyclists have no chance to compete
2)the testing isn't good enough to catch the doping
Given these two statements why ride clean?
No doubt there are some voices within the sport that are working towards a "cleaner" sport. However there doesn't appear to be anyone agitating for a clean one. I don't see how any rider has the right to be considered clean as a matter of principle in the current sport climate. Unfair, maybe, but that's the reality.
zealot66 said:I think that goes for most professional sports besides maybe ping pong of badmitton
i am not sure about them...either
zealot66 said:I think that goes for most professional sports besides maybe ping pong of badmitton
There have been steroid positives in badminton. Teams from the same nation have also deliberately lost while making the game very easy so the players on the other team won't have to exert themelves.
ludwig said:
Because neither of those statements are true.
1) Clean cyclists are winning. Just looking at those who are seen as spotless in the last six weeks. Phil Gilbert's just one three races in a row - one of them a classic. Montcoutie won the KoM in the Vuelta and a stage. There's many many more,
2) Testing doesn't catch anyone? Tell that to DiLuca, Ricco, Kohl, Schumacher, Landis, Rebellin, Vinokourov, Kasheshkin, Hamilton, Heras, Gonzalez, Sinkewitz, Mayo, Dekker, Piepoli, Astarloza, Hondo, Kessler, Pfannberger, Camenzind, Colom and Sella.
And that's just the high profile names that got done by the tests. Let's add Ullrich, Basso, Scarponi, Mancebo, Sevilla, Millar, Rasmussen, Mazzoleni amongst others who never failed a test.
And what exactly is the Bruyneel/Armstrong model that they're all lining up behind. Is it just dope to win? Or is it the strategic approach to the season, because Colombia are having great success by taking the polar opposite approach.
Basically, many, many cyclists don't deserve 'fans' like you.
Mambo95 said:
It's highly unlikely that those achievements are PED free.
Yet notice that the exact same names involved in Puerto dominate the sport now. Why do you think testing has improved to the point where it can catch the guys in the best programs?
It's not like guys aren't getting busted...but the bottom line remains you gotta take PEDs to have a shot.
ludwig said:
You mean Moncoutie, who refused to take vitamin C? If he dopes, then there is no hope.
Kohl believe that it's not possible to win a major race clean.
Of course some tactical races or low rated race can be won cleanly or at least much cleaner than commonly.
Moncoutié won Vuelta's KOM by tactic not ty his superior strength, being not a threat as GC ranking gave him a pass.
There is still some super-power riders to catch, they were doping and still dope.
Of course some tactical races or low rated race can be won cleanly or at least much cleaner than commonly.
Moncoutié won Vuelta's KOM by tactic not ty his superior strength, being not a threat as GC ranking gave him a pass.
There is still some super-power riders to catch, they were doping and still dope.
After watching Kenny van Hummel race at this year's tour, I'm confident that he is a clean rider. If he is doping and still climbs like that, then he needs to find the good drugs that will help him actually get over the mountains.
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