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Clean Cyclists ?

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Jun 27, 2009
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poupou said:
Moncoutié won Vuelta's KOM by tactic not ty his superior strength, being not a threat as GC ranking gave him a pass.

If Moncoutie was capable of the type of form he demonstrated (and has previously demonstrated) at the Vuelta dope-free...then why wouldn't he concentrate on his better tested home Tour and become a huge star in France? Why would he aim for the Vuelta?
 
BroDeal said:
There have been steroid positives in badminton. Teams from the same nation have also deliberately lost while making the game very easy so the players on the other team won't have to exert themelves.

Ok, maybe womens volleyball ? or skateboarding ?:confused:
 
posted above in regards to armstrongs strategic approach and Colombias approach. Can someone give me a rundown of what the differences are and why this plays a part in 'the clean' cyclist. Ive been following pro cycling for about 5 years but Im just not familiar with Colombias approach to the season vs another strategy. They sure did win alot though. Cavendish is awsome to watch.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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poupou said:
Kohl believe that it's not possible to win a major race clean.

Of course some tactical races or low rated race can be won cleanly or at least much cleaner than commonly.

Moncoutié won Vuelta's KOM by tactic not ty his superior strength, being not a threat as GC ranking gave him a pass.

There is still some super-power riders to catch, they were doping and still dope.

Of course tactics were involved - that's how KoM is won these days. I was just giving the most blatant examples, from just the last six weeks, of why Ludwig's assertation that "no clean cyclist has a chance of a Top 10 in any pro race" is utter nonsense.

He also said that "testing isn't good enough to catch the doping" -so I gave the big names who have been caught.

A lot of people on here take a hysterical point of view towards doping (maybe because if you don't you're called a troll and some want you banned). The more sober truth is that it's been on the decrease since Puerto, or more specifically the withdrawal of sponsorship as a result. There are plenty of dirty riders still, but the options open to them are lessening. Clean riders are thriving for the first time in nearly twenty years.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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poupou said:
Kohl believe that it's not possible to win a major race clean.

Serious question: how the hell would Kohl know what it takes to win a major race clean?

The reason I ask it that if anything is indicative of the fact that cycling is cleaner than it has been, it's Kohl's relative performances.

Here's a guy who has been boosting his entire career, with very mediocre results...and then ends up on the TFD podium and the KOM jersey?? What, did he finally figure out how to dope?

Why was Kohl's doping so much more effective? I realize this entire forum exist to say that everyone except a couple of obscure guys are doped, but Kohl's sudden rise gives some direct empirical evidence to the contrary, in my opinion.

I'm also of the opinion that if I guy is a mediocre professional while doped to the gills, he really doesn't know what it takes to win clean.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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ludwig said:
If Moncoutie was capable of the type of form he demonstrated (and has previously demonstrated) at the Vuelta dope-free...then why wouldn't he concentrate on his better tested home Tour and become a huge star in France? Why would he aim for the Vuelta?
Vuelta has less contender, so less dope is used. So natural (or less doped) riders can easier have a spot.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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131313 said:
Serious question: how the hell would Kohl know what it takes to win a major race clean?

The reason I ask it that if anything is indicative of the fact that cycling is cleaner than it has been, it's Kohl's relative performances.

Here's a guy who has been boosting his entire career, with very mediocre results...and then ends up on the TFD podium and the KOM jersey?? What, did he finally figure out how to dope?

Why was Kohl's doping so much more effective? I realize this entire forum exist to say that everyone except a couple of obscure guys are doped, but Kohl's sudden rise gives some direct empirical evidence to the contrary, in my opinion.

I'm also of the opinion that if I guy is a mediocre professional while doped to the gills, he really doesn't know what it takes to win clean.

All PED are not equal... as said Kohl with one blood bag more he would have won TDF.
Never think that Landis "won" 2006 TDF with Testosterone, he had a more elaborated doping program with blood transfusion and/or EPO (like CERA, dynEPO), IGF, insulin,...
To have a reference is important, when Hinault or Lemond were able to climb the last col of a mountain stage producing an average of 380-390 cyclismag W, today the top riders are able to reach 450W and more !
Do you believe that all those riders became so much stronger without PED?
 
Mambo95 said:
The more sober truth is that it's been on the decrease since Puerto, or more specifically the withdrawal of sponsorship as a result. There are plenty of dirty riders still, but the options open to them are lessening. Clean riders are thriving for the first time in nearly twenty years.

Yeah, sure. Let's examine this season's GTs.

The Giro was won by Dennis "Humanplasma" Menchov. Second was Danilo "CERA" DiLuca. The TdF was won by a refugee from Operation Puerto. Second place has a brother who likes to make payments to Dr. Fuentes. And third is a proved user of EPO who had funky blood values indicating that he is still doping. The Vuelta was won by a rider who is banned in Italy for blood doping.

Yup. Things have sure improved.
 
May 6, 2009
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poupou said:
Vuelta has less contender, so less dope is used. So natural (or less doped) riders can easier have a spot.

I know of an Austrian cyclist who lives in here and is in his mid 70's was busted for doping in Austria a few years ago. And this guy does zero work in a race, I mean I can count the amount of times on one hand I have seen him do a turn on the front. The point being is that a race win is race win so some people will look to take advantage of whatever they can get to win. I certainly there are guys who are probably doping when it comes to getting stage wins at the Vuelta. Either way it is still a GT and a stage win can get a few more Euro's on your next contract.

As for the question, I think Haussler is clean. Throughout his whole career, he has been a solid sprinter, nothing more really. As for his Tour stage win, IMO if the peloton really wanted to have chased him down, they would have (and it couldn't of been that hard if Hushovd was still in there) and let's be honest, most people on here would have passed Chavanel when he bonked. I guess Cervelo are clean(er) and Sastre was out the door when the roads went uphill in the Alps, or he went too hard at the Giro where he won two stages.

But if you want one clean cyclist, then I am that one. I hard a hard week of training/racing two weeks ago and I'm still paying for it.
 
Mambo95 said:
At least try and be consistent with your guesswork
You are correct in scrutinizing my list Mambo. I was trying however to walk a fine line between said guesswork, while using terms such as "potentially" and "generally", while staying in the spirit of the thread. Of course, we don't know. Aside from a few who have been + or busted otherwise, it's mostly all just guesswork, with plenty of room between those like BigBoat who imply that pretty much everyone dopes, to those who believe the UCI's claims that the peloton is almost entirely clean and doping isn't much of a problem anymore.
 
BroDeal said:
Yeah, sure. Let's examine this season's GTs.

The Giro was won by Dennis "Humanplasma" Menchov. Second was Danilo "CERA" DiLuca. The TdF was won by a refugee from Operation Puerto. Second place has a brother who likes to make payments to Dr. Fuentes. And third is a proved user of EPO who had funky blood values indicating that he is still doping. The Vuelta was won by a rider who is banned in Italy for blood doping.

Yup. Things have sure improved.

BroDeal, do you honestly believe there has been no improvement? I don't mean massive improvement, because I agree with your points and we could add lots more. But things do seem to have improved compared to, say 1995-2005?

Honestly, not trying to flame here, just want your thoughts.
 
Ripper said:
BroDeal, do you honestly believe there has been no improvement? I don't mean massive improvement, because I agree with your points and we could add lots more. But things do seem to have improved compared to, say 1995-2005?

Honestly, not trying to flame here, just want your thoughts.

Ii am skeptical that much has changed at the top of the GT leader boards. Beyond the top ten I think there has probably been a serious reduction, but there is a lot of conflicting information.
 
Jun 27, 2009
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What reason is there to conclude that the peloton is cleaner?

that's the question I would ask to those who confidently assert that clean riders are winning now, that the peloton has gotten way cleaner etc.

What rationale is there for such claims? And yes, I'm looking for more than simply pointing out that some riders gets busted, or UCI propaganda. I'm interested in reasons that are credible; reasons that intellectually honest people of different persuasions can agree on.

What I see is a sport that is led by the same people who led during Festina, and the same people who led 1999-2005. The same DSes, the same leading riders, the same UCI leadership, the same corrupt and inefficient testing procedures. Outside of Saiz, every major doping enabler continues to work in cycling and this ensures that nothing will change. In short, the sport has zero credibility on doping. In their defense, however, it's also clear that the testing isn't good enough to catch everyone. And even if it was, it would be insane to find everyone positive. So the best the sport can do is try to work on its image and keep the doping as secretive as possible.

People are confusing fantasy/desire with reality. It seems cycling fandom has always been like this--the sport needs myth to survive and doping scandals mar that myth.
 
Jun 27, 2009
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luckyboy said:
I don't quite get what you mean here - are you saying that you'd rather some people did fool the dope tests?

I'm saying it's understandable why the sport goes through so much trouble to cover up the problem. Better testing could perhaps offer a solution in the future, but you gotta be realistic about the history of the sport and how entrenched the culture is.
 
Most riders are clean. I don't think everyone is clean, but most are.

You guys are ruling out some basic things in cycling: talent, form and experience and development, both of rider and of equipment.

Some riders have more talent than others. Contador is more gifted than, for example, Offredo. Which is simply nature, and has nothing to do with doping. Look at football for example. The benchwarmer at Sunderland doesn't have as much talent as Kaka of Real Madrid. You can say he just have to learn the moves and tricks Kaka has, but he never will. Which is the same with cycling, some riders are gifted with more power than others.

Form is of equal importance. The general level in races these days is so high that a form drop of 5% can mean you end up 40 places backwards. This is the exact reason why you can't say of Evans he rode clean this year in le Tour and he doped other years. He didn't have the good form he did have other years. Which can happen, there are various reasons for this. And when a rider feels he doesn't have the top form, his morale will not be as high as before, and he will lose more places. The same works the other way around, ask it Le Mevel. Normally he doesn't have the capacities to do a top - 10 in le Tour, but this year he could because of a small time gift in the race, which boosted his morale sky high, and so he was able to battle for his place with the last piece of energy he had. This is the explanation why cyclists can be inconsistent, and it has nothing to do with doping.

Experience is another factor. In the past, when Valverde was feeling very well, he would just sprint and waste energy in every way he could. And afterwards be dropped on a rainy friday afternoon. This year he spended his energy more economically. He didn't climb better than other years, he simply was more consistant. And this is what can happen with riders, they, believe it or not, can grow during their careers, both physically and mentally. This is what Valverde proved during the Vuelta on the mental part. The physical part is even more obvious. A rider needs seven or eight years of cycling before he really has the strength to compete consistenly on the highest level. Some cyclists thus make huge steps even when they're 28 or 29.

Development, both of training methods and equipment is another vital factor in the cycling of today. Till two years ago, Rabobank for example just didn't care about super thight training programs and didn't have interest in what riders were doing. Now they have, and they can, with all the knowledge there is, make cyclists much better. Cycling is a very traditional sport, in which riders did what they thought was good to do. Only in the last five years, I would actually say with Lance Armstrong in '99, the details of the training methods were beginning to get covered. I see this fact as the main reason why French cyclists were performing so poor in recent years. Its not because they didn't have the talent, its not because they didn't have the doping (at least this are not the only reasons), but they didn't have the professional help of the teams, which other riders did have. It is not for nothing that Laissez Faire is a French word and this is noticable in every part of their society, and also in cycling. Only now they're going to catch up. I see a very good example in Sicard. He was a good talent in his French years, but not the spectacular rider it was last year. He could improve so much because of the professional guidance he got at the Basque Orbea team. I followed the guy closely since january and read some interview with him back then, and when he was asked about the biggest advantage from Orbea, he was totally stunned about the guidance he got. And that's only a youth team...
The slow turn from the cyclingworld towards professionalism is also spottable through the good results of the Anglo Saxon riders. They are relatively new to cycling and don't have to endure this process, but start with a professional attitude right away. I see that as a major reason for the victories they get now.

And then there are more things, like the bikes they ride on. They are better every year, so it is totally normal that riders can ride faster every year. That's why I am so unimpressed with the statements of LeMond that Contador was riding so quick. There is a development all the time. Lets look at football again. In the '80 the game was so much slower than it is nowadays. Is that because of doping? No, its because of development of visions about football and because of the increasing interest in and money for the game. It is no different for cycling.

Finally, look at the following facts: Italians are not winning as much as in the past. In the '90 they were winning everything, now they don't. They have some top riders and many average riders, which is normal. In the past they had very many top riders, which wasn't normal.

Go and buy some DVD from cycling in the nineties and early years of this century. What a spectacle. Attack after attack, gaps of many minutes, all because there was a clear division between riders who doped and riders who doped heavily. Now all cyclists are equal (though some may possibly be more equal than others :eek: ) and the racing is logical. One attack, and it is over for nearly every rider, except for the four or five big talents there are around.

As a last point I want to point out that Schumacher was a good rider, till suddenly he owned more than any other rider during the Tour. He was caught.

Kohl was an average rider till he suddenly was third in le Tour. Then he was caught.

Rebellin started riding very attractively the last years, despite getting old. He was caught.

Di Luca attacked and attacked in the Giro, while I was thinking "he has to crack every moment". He was caught.

Ricco did some marvellous things out of the blue in the Tour of 2008. He was caught.

Thomas Dekker rode very good in the classics of 08 after having a serious injury in winter. He was caught.

Mazzoleni came home third in the Giro. He was caught.

And I can go on and on. So what can we learn of this? If a rider performs extraordinary well compared to other years, he is doped in many cases. And if he was not caught? Well it might just be the talent or the development of the rider.

So coming to the end of the story I notice that I forgot to talk about the increasing testing and the presence of the biological thing, which makes doping more difficult than ever before. Some rich guys might still be able to cope with the controls, but most won't.

And as a very last sort of sentence I want to say that I have to laugh cynically when I read here which riders you think are clean. Besides that I think you shouldn't make such firm statements about the other riders, because you don't know them and their situation, I think that's totally illogical. British riders are performing better than ever in the current peloton and still they are the cleanest riders? Tell me the logic. Beware I don't say Wiggins doped, but when I have to choose between the believability of Contador versus Wiggins I would choose for Contador instantly.

I hope you take my post seriously because it took quite a long time to type this all and I think I can reject your doping insinuations about the current peloton for 95% with my reasoning.
 
Jun 27, 2009
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Who Are the Clean Riders And How Can We Support Them?

Anybody can look back with hindsight and say "well Schumi's performances were out of the ordinary so he was obviously doping etc". But it's a hell of a lot harder to pinpoint with accuracy who the clean riders are. You say 95%. I'd be surprised if it was 2%.

I'll be happy with this. Name 5 examples of clean riders in the pro peloton that don't use PEDs. I find most veteran cycling fans have a very hard time doing this, and this says everything about cycling's credibility re. doping.
 
Sep 10, 2009
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Arnout said:
Some riders have more talent than others.
Of course, but that's the problem with doping - you don't know when the talent ends and the talent-by-doping begins. Take Contador: his TT'ing ability this season was markedly improved this season over what it was in the past, and yet even he admitted that he hasn't changed his style, position, etc - so where did that extra punch and power come from? In an entirely clean peloton, would Contador still be a better climber than say Moncoutie, a guy most people believe is clean? In an entirely clean peloton, would Armstrong still have been a better Tour rider than say McGee or Bassons, both of whom, by some physiological measurements, had "natural talent" equal to or even better than Armstrong's? So how much of Armstrong's Tour-winning ability was due to talent and how much to Ferrari's little helpers? Personally, I seriously doubt that he'd have won a single Tour, let alone 7, if he and everyone else were clean. How great a climber was Pantani, really, ie without the EPO? Impossible to say. Ullrich? Riis? Landis? Hamilton? How "talented" were they, really?

One way to compare is to look at guys who were doping and who are (assumedly) clean now - Millar and Basso, for eg. Both are still very good riders, but nowhere near the world-beaters they were when doping: Basso used to win Giro's by 10 minutes, now he can barely make top 5 at the Vuelta. Millar was a World Champ TT'er on EPO, now he is all over the map. So how much of that previous ability (and again, assuming that they are clean now) was due to doping?

The most frustrating part of the prevalence of doping in the peloton - and by doping I mean of the relatively recent EPO/blood boosting type - is that it has so distorted the line between natural ability and enhanced ability that we'll never know how talented Ullrich, Armstrong, Pantani, Contador, etc truly are/were.
 
Jun 27, 2009
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VeloCity said:
One way to compare is to look at guys who were doping and who are (assumedly) clean now - Millar and Basso, for eg. Both are still very good riders, but nowhere near the world-beaters they were when doping: Basso used to win Giro's by 10 minutes, now he can barely make top 5 at the Vuelta.

Well if Basso placed Top 5 in 2 GTs dope-free, then he is one hell of a natural talent. One of the ways doping harms the sport is it exacerbates inequalities--ie the inequality of dope programs. At his peak at CSC Basso was on the elite Fuentes program (ie equal or better than Ulle's program)...but who knows what his program is now. If the whistle blowers are to be believed, everyone at his level is on something, it's just a question of how much they are able to spend and what they can get away with.
 
ludwig said:
Well if Basso placed Top 5 in 2 GTs dope-free, then he is one hell of a natural talent. One of the ways doping harms the sport is it exacerbates inequalities--ie the inequality of dope programs. At his peak at CSC Basso was on the elite Fuentes program (ie equal or better than Ulle's program)...but who knows what his program is now. If the whistle blowers are to be believed, everyone at his level is on something, it's just a question of how much they are able to spend and what they can get away with.
+1.

When comparing performances from the past and present one has to be careful not to be confused that a rider could be riding clean because is below its previous levels. It could be attributed to lack of racing, training, or as you stated, different doping programs. With the Biological Passport in effect riders have to be careful in how much sauce they use.
 
ludwig said:
Anybody can look back with hindsight and say "well Schumi's performances were out of the ordinary so he was obviously doping etc". But it's a hell of a lot harder to pinpoint with accuracy who the clean riders are. You say 95%. I'd be surprised if it was 2%.

I'll be happy with this. Name 5 examples of clean riders in the pro peloton that don't use PEDs. I find most veteran cycling fans have a very hard time doing this, and this says everything about cycling's credibility re. doping.
David Moncoutié
Sandy Casar
Thomas Voeckler
Christophe Le Mével
Leonardo Duque

I won't say 100% clean, but cleanish. I also believe that some of the Garmin riders are riding cleanish, but I am not sure who. I am sure there some others that I am not so familiar with like for example the Lanterne rouge from the Grand Tours.
 
ludwig said:
Anybody can look back with hindsight and say "well Schumi's performances were out of the ordinary so he was obviously doping etc". But it's a hell of a lot harder to pinpoint with accuracy who the clean riders are. You say 95%. I'd be surprised if it was 2%.

I'll be happy with this. Name 5 examples of clean riders in the pro peloton that don't use PEDs. I find most veteran cycling fans have a very hard time doing this, and this says everything about cycling's credibility re. doping.

Give one proof for your 2%. You don't have any. We have blood programs, we have numerous doping tests. And still you say only 1% of the dopers is caught? Surprisingly I expected halve of that exact one percent to get caught, and in the current peloton I can't name any rider who I think uses doping right now. Simply because I don't see the extraordinary performance anymore.

I don't know what PEDs is, but I assume you mean some kind of doping with it.

Well I can name 100 riders who I am sure don't use doping, and I will start by giving the first 10.

- Casar
- Moncoutie
- Cunego
- Santambrogio
- Erviti
- Langeveld
- Vansummeren
- Contador
- Tony Martin
- Hushovd
- Nicky Sorensen

You don't have any proof to accuse the riders of using dope without knowing for sure they do! I find that disrespectful towards the sport.

You know, I can say it is very common nowadays that there is internet piracy. Knowing that all members here know how a forum works and thus have basic knowlegde of computers and software and stuff I believe 95% percent of you lot are internet pirates.
To be clear, I don't believe this and I don't want to know this. I don't have any proof for it. Do I, knowing that I have no proof, have the right to make such a statement about a group of people, even though it is commonly believed internet pircay is widespread?

I don't think so, I think that's unethical and totally against the common believes and laws of the society most of us live in (I assume). And that's why I always react so heavily on you. I get so frustrated when, after a good performance of a random cyclist, I immediately spot a new thread on that cyclist in the clinic. Why do you then watch cycling anyway if you don't believe it?

And Basso is in fact, for me, one of the biggest surprises of this year. Normally it is very difficult for anyone to perform on a level this high directly after doing two years without racing. He could, that shows his talents and the fact that it is possible to join the top of a peloton right away.

I rewatched the 2003 Liege Bastogne Liege today. I didn't believe my eyes, I saw attacks starting from 70 km to go, and they didn't stop going full gas till they reached the finish line. I don't see that kind of races anymore (and I regret that), and I see that as a sign of a more or less dopingfree peloton. I don't know if I am happy with that, because I still believe 2003 was the most spectacular cyclingyear of this century, but I certainly see the racing is different from 5 or 10 years back.

And do you believe for one single moment that Contador uses blood doping? You should know his history, he got some problems with his blood already of which he nearly died. No single person is risking that another time. Never.

And I don't know how you can say Contador didn't do anything with his time trial skills last winter, because he already said this spring that he heavily worked on his time trial skills.
 
Jun 27, 2009
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Arnout said:
Give one proof for your 2%.

Well, the most devastating evidence of widespread doping remains the attitude of the peloton towards doping and how easily they embrace confessed and/or convicted dopers. This, combined with extreme aggression towards any rider who spills the beans on how doping works etc. But more pertintently, Puerto established the big names in the sport were doping and not getting caught. At this time, the big names are pretty much the same and they work with the same DSes. If you want to assert that the sport has miraculously cleaned itself up, while continuting to have the same leadership and the same lead riders, then the burden of proof is on you.

But seriously, if you were trying to ride clean in this sport, would you be happy that virtually all of the DSes are former dopers and that riders like Vino are embraced, while whistle blowers like Jaksche and Kohl are ostracized? It doesn't add up.

I don't know what PEDs is, but I assume you mean some kind of doping with it.

I realize you probably aren't a native English speaker, but given that you don't know such an elementary term maybe you should hestitate before lecturing others and posing an authority. PEDs=performance enhancing drugs.

Well I can name 100 riders who I am sure don't use doping, and I will start by giving the first 10.

- Casar
- Moncoutie
- Cunego
- Santambrogio
- Erviti
- Langeveld
- Vansummeren
- Contador
- Tony Martin
- Hushovd
- Nicky Sorensen

OK that list is straight up ridiculous. There is no way in hell that Contador is clean. Some of those names I'm not familiar with, but I don't believe it's possible that Cunego, Martin, or Moncoutie rode without PEDs this year. These guys were most prolific in the most notoriously doped events==ie Dauphine, TdS, the Vuelta. Sorenson rides for CSC=not clean.

You know, I can say it is very common nowadays that there is internet piracy. Knowing that all members here know how a forum works and thus have basic knowlegde of computers and software and stuff I believe 95% percent of you lot are internet pirates.
To be clear, I don't believe this and I don't want to know this. I don't have any proof for it. Do I, knowing that I have no proof, have the right to make such a statement about a group of people, even though it is commonly believed internet pircay is widespread?

I don't think so, I think that's unethical and totally against the common believes and laws of the society most of us live in (I assume). And that's why I always react so heavily on you. I get so frustrated when, after a good performance of a random cyclist, I immediately spot a new thread on that cyclist in the clinic. Why do you then watch cycling anyway if you don't believe it?

Well, I pretty much accept that omerta on doping is inevitable and the problem cannot be easily solved. Hence I share your disgust with threads popping up accusing a rider of doping every time a rider wins a race. But what I can't stomach are the lies and misinformation. By posting here we are mainly trying to put the facts out there for anyone who is interested in the truth. If one wants to keep one's head in the sand, then there's no need to enter The Clinic.