Clean Protocol

[SlowtwitchLeaks]

Anyone knows what's this about???

http://cleanprotocol.org/

 

[peterst6906]

Sceptical at this stage. Looks like a group see a business opportunity.

In terms of who this initiative involves, from their website:

The Clean Protocol™ is administered by the World Clean Sports Organisation (WCSO) which is a not for profit global organisation based in Switzerland founded by sports fans, former professional & Olympic athletes, legal professionals and anti-doping experts who are not current employees of any professional team or any official sports body or federation.

The WCSO is to be run by committed fans and former athletes who are passionate clean sport advocates.

The WCSO relies upon advice from relevant experts and will remain independent from the existing sports hierarchy. It is this independence that ensures the Clean Protocol ™ can stay true to its vision in facilitating clean sport.

It is hoped the existing anti-doping hierarchy will support and work to assist clean sport and the Clean Protocol™.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Ocular-motor Deception Testing study

I am guessing a psych eval using some tech to measure eye movement when asked questions, coupled with OOC testing, true baseline testing, etc.

Interesting.

 

[Tom375]

... so what you mean its a lie detector test.with a urine sample.. based in Switzerland, non-profit organisation hmmm Bullcrap??
Could be useful way for non clean athletes to get certified and then say hey look i'm clean don't need to test me i've got a certificate

 

[Dear Wiggo]

There's usually an "About us" section that lists the key stake holders, but there does not appear to be anything of the sort here. I'd like to know who is organising this, as it speaks to the foundation of the credibility IMO.

I do like the whole "publish blood profiles" option

 

[BroDeal]

They lost me at "based in Switzerland."

 

[alitogata]

There's usually an "About us" section that lists the key stake holders, but there does not appear to be anything of the sort here. I'd like to know who is organising this, as it speaks to the foundation of the credibility IMO.

I do like the whole "publish blood profiles" option

I agree. Who are those who organize this and which is their "integrity protocol". And how can they publish blood profiles?? I don't get it.. There are laws that don't allow to publish private data and medical records.

 

[peterst6906]

There are laws that don't allow to publish private data and medical records.

That's true, without consent.

However, part of this group getting off the ground is to encourage athletes to join and sign the "clean contract" which involves:

The first step for the athlete is to sign the Clean Contract which is a simple contractual commitment to abide by the rules of the sport and to submit themselves to the Clean Protocol™ which requires the provision of certain information and to be available for certain testing procedures explained below.

If the contractual arrangement includes consent, then the data can be disclosed (to whatever level and method is included in the contract).

 

[SlowtwitchLeaks]

There's usually an "About us" section that lists the key stake holders, but there does not appear to be anything of the sort here. I'd like to know who is organising this, as it speaks to the foundation of the credibility IMO.

I do like the whole "publish blood profiles" option

Some thoughts here. I found it weird that the only individual name that appears in the whole site is this guy:

http://www.teamtbb.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=142

Not exactly Michael Ashenden...

 

[skippy]

Alex bok is Who ? Worked from 1991 with Rabobank, ING Bank, Accenture, DBS Bank

See this guy's blog stopped in 2010 !

http://blogs.teamtbb.com/alexbok/

Will have a gander at 2007-10 to see background .

 

[Teague]

Who are we?

Hi Guys

Thanks for your interest and feedback.

My name is Teague Czislowski I am the founder of the Clean Protocol which was an idea I formed after reading all of the doping scandals particularly in cycling late last year. What cycling fan has not suffered through scandal after scandal?

I was also hearing from my friends that were professional and elite athletes that the public perception of athletes had changed and they were annoyed that their entire career of clean sport was being questioned with the proliferation of high profile doping cases. Personally I also had grown tired of some higher profile athletes professing their drug free performances when logic and observation told me differently. So what does one do about it?

I read and searched everywhere for any system that could verify if someone is clean and to assist clean athletes so we the fans and supporters of clean sport could put them to the test. At that time I was then on a sabbatical in Switzerland and started talking to a few people including some anti-doping experts. They were totally disillusioned with the limitations of the current system under the WADA Code. I then devised a system which I called the Clean Protocol. The important thing for me was to get the idea out there and build some support for it.

The web-site you see at http://www.cleanprotocol.org was constructed in 2 weeks in world record time and I was really nervous just to get it out there as I had returned home to Australia and a massive drugs/organised crime scandal had blown up. I have funded everything to date and my aim is to bring the idea to reality so that it may one day fund itself. I believed that a not for profit structure was the best way to achieve this. Amongst this rush I failed to put up contacts and more detail on "Who are we?" I will have that corrected asap. I actually hoped people would evaluate the idea on it's merits but it is fair enough to ask who is behind it.

Alex Bok is the manager of Team TBB which is the best triathlon team in the World and is an early supporter as they have 40 triathletes including a current Olympic champion and several of the top ironman triathletes in the World. He loved the idea. He has no interest in the project other than as a supporter. There is also a small but loyal bunch of moral supporters and advocates.

We are totally independent and have to remain that way but would welcome any help to spread the message and achieve the objectives stated above and on the site. We thought it was an advantage to not be related in anyway to the current sports administrative institutions.

Happy to talk to anyone with an interest in the project and my contact number is +61 466 657 623 (please remember I am in Perth, Western Australia) but a skype call is probably more cost effective by emailing me on teaguecz@gmail.com

I am a former lawyer, an avid cyclist (masters level: 4th at the last UCI UWCT Masters Worlds in 35-39) and former Olympic level sailor in the 49er class but most importantly just a fan who would like to watch sport and know it's real, and maybe even make a positive difference....

Yours in clean sport

Teague Czislowski

 

[mrhender]

So.... Gaining traction or dying a slow death...?

http://cleanprotocol.org/doping-in-sport/

The Clean Protocol™ is a system to support clean athletes and to promote social change toward clean sport. It is the highest standard for athletes complying with the rules of their sport.

The Clean Protocol™ is a system designed by enthusiastic and like minded athletes, sports professionals and relevant experts to enable clean athletes to obtain and independent certification of their compliance with the rules.

A few recent article subtracts below

http://www.outsideonline.com/fitnes...-Doper-Is-a-Lie-Detector-Test-the-Answer.html

Conventional anti-doping measures struggle to keep pace with ever-newer drugs and tricks. But a lie detector can catch doping long after drugs have left the body, said Czislowski. And because he isn’t accusing people of doping, the test doesn’t have to be as airtight as the drug tests, he said. Rather than replace standard anti-doping tests, he sees the Clean Protocol as a compliment to them—a way to plug the gaps in the current system.
-------------------------
Off the record, some pros have expressed reluctance at being guinea pigs in an unproven experiment, Cunnama said. But he sees little downside. He passed the test. But even if he hadn’t there would have been no consequences from race officials.

“So what have we got to lose?” he said. “For the moment, the WADA system just isn’t catching enough dopers.”

http://veloclinic.com/imminent-arrival-reward-side-anti-doping/

Without any modification to the current testing whatsoever, an alternative approach would be to take a reward side anti-doping model. Since the goal here is to reward clean athletes with an endorsement and no harsh penalties are involved, the thresholds can be shifted so that the vast majority of doped athletes are excluded. Under this approach the majority of clean athletes can be given the far less ambiguous endorsement of very likely clean. Such a designation would be far more likely to be embraced by fans. It would also provide sponsors with a far more secure investment. The potential issue of course, is if nobody is banned then individuals will be given the option to trade credibility for podiums.

Fortunately, the punitive/deterrent and reward based models are not mutually exclusive. Instead, they are obviously quite complementary. By including both top down and bottom thresholds the greatest advantage can be had from the imperfect tests. As illustrated here, the very likely clean athletes can benefit from reward based endorsement, meaningful penalties can be kept in place, and the number of clean riders left in the “not positive” grey zone can be minimized.

http://megabicicleta.com/2014/10/13/is-there-a-better-approach-to-anti-doping/

The bar for proving someone is clean can be placed in a very different area, statistically, than the bar for proving someone is dirty. It can be much tougher.

For the majority of clean riders, the current status quo is frustrating because there is no way of separating them from riders who are in the grey area of ‘doping but getting away with it’.

By signing up for the Clean Protocol (or similar, as long as the methodology is trustworthy) riders would have a way of proving (to a very high degree of certainty) to fans and sponsors that they are not doping.

It creates an incentive to be fastidiously clean, because the commercial implications for sponsors, and teams hiring only certified riders, would potentially be huge.

I like the idea,but don't know about the scientific aspects and value of such "clean" label... With the recent "I dare you" from Tinkov and Feltrin I would love to hear someone reply with a dare to this as well..

 

[Benotti69]

Lie detectors? Someone like Armstrong would beat a lie detector 7 out of 7 times!

 

[mrhender]

Lie detectors? Someone like Armstrong would beat a lie detector 7 out of 7 times!

Yes, and he would not be the only one...

Fortunately that is not the only parameter of the clean protocol...

 

[mrhender]

If I was managing a clean team in Pro-Cycling I would sign up for this in a heartbeat.. Why not ask Brailsford and Vaughters to do so...
What have they got to loose? It's not a sanction tool, and "negatives" doesn't get published right..
If they really wanted to put pressure on other teams to become clean they would be all over things like this..
Why let all the cheaters cheat them for their victories....
Ohh I forgot.. They also do win a lot...
All must be fine and clean then........ LOL...........!
Maybe they are afraid of what such scrutiny would reveal.................?

 

[Parker]

If I was managing a clean team in Pro-Cycling I would sign up for this in a heartbeat.. Why not ask Brailsford and Vaughters to do so...
What have they got to loose? It's not a sanction tool, and "negatives" doesn't get published right..
If they really wanted to put pressure on other teams to become clean they would be all over things like this..
Why let all the cheaters cheat them for their victories....
Ohh I forgot.. They also do win a lot...
All must be fine and clean then........ LOL...........!
Maybe they are afraid of what such scrutiny would reveal.................?

It's just a couple of chancers with a half baked scheme built around ropey science handing out worthless 'certificates' (for a fee, I imagine)

Lie detectors? Please. It would have as much credibility if it was based on astrology and palm reading.

But I expect there will be no shortage of suckers willing to fork out good cash for a useless piece of paper.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

I'd be sold if they promised blood tests every two days. Especially if the samples go through the EPO genetic-marker test that has been rumored.

Lie detectors? Then athletes will just psycho-dope before the test. I wish I were joking.

 

[mrhender]

It's just a couple of chancers with a half baked scheme built around ropey science handing out worthless 'certificates' (for a fee, I imagine)

Lie detectors? Please. It would have as much credibility if it was based on astrology and palm reading.

But I expect there will be no shortage of suckers willing to fork out good cash for a useless piece of paper.

Yup... You seem to imagine a lot

And the lie detector is not the strongest in their armory...
But don't tell me you've never seen an interview with a rider asked about doping and wished that some device was attached so that the obvious lying could be detected... And again... It is not a sanction tool... It is the opposite of the ABP with the possibility of showing a high possibility of cleanliness..

And again.. The lie detector test is not the only premise... They would want numbers and profiles hardly ever seen in the clinic... Is that really a bad thing?

 

[mrhender]

Arguing this to be a money-scheme is ludicrous....

There's a million easier ways of making money than this...

The amount of time, and other difficulties this project endures one would be crazy to do it unless they have a real interest in a cleaner sport...

If they end up making money on this, I salute them....

 

[Parker]

Yup... You seem to imagine a lot

And the lie detector is not the strongest in their armory...
But don't tell me you've never seen an interview with a rider asked about doping and wished that some device was attached so that the obvious lying could be detected... And again... It is not a sanction tool... It is the opposite of the ABP with the possibility of showing a high possibility of cleanliness..

And again.. The lie detector test is not the only premise... They would want numbers and profiles hardly ever seen in the clinic... Is that really a bad thing?

First of all lie detectors are a load of baloney. The person selling the lie detector only claims 85% accuracy - which will be their own tests in lab conditions, so a lot less in reality.

Then they want numbers and profiles - which will be examined by self-appointed 'experts' - and they can't tell you if someone is clean or dirty anyway.

And here's the test. If a cyclist who you think is doping gets one of these certificates, will you then believe the rider is clean? Or will you discredit the test to maintain your opinion?

And as for the fee. The website says "The initial cost to each person taking the Clean Protocol is set at 100CHF per year". Nice little earner for an online test and a certificate. And that's just the initial cost.

It's a scam. But as you've shown plenty will enthusiastically embrace it as something meaningful.

 

[mrhender]

First of all lie detectors are a load of baloney. The person selling the lie detector only claims 85% accuracy - which will be their own tests in lab conditions, so a lot less in reality.

Then they want numbers and profiles - which will be examined by self-appointed 'experts' - and they can't tell you if someone is clean or dirty anyway.

And here's the test. If a cyclist who you think is doping gets one of these certificates, will you then believe the rider is clean. Or will you discredit the test to maintain your opinion.

And as for the fee. The website says "The initial cost to each person taking the Clean Protocol is set at 100CHF per year". Nice little earner for an online test and a certificate. And that's just the initial cost.

It's a scam. But as you've shown plenty will enthusiastically embrace it as something meaningful.

So what you see is a scam disrupting the (anti)+doping-environment at the hefty cost of 100 CHF per year.. I guess all those opposing doping should work for free. Nice idea... By your logic everyone involved in anti-doping is merely part of a scam.... That would explain a lot though...

 

[Parker]

So what you see is a scam disrupting the (anti)+doping-environment at the hefty cost of 100 CHF per year.. I guess all those opposing doping should work for free. Nice idea... By your logic everyone involved in anti-doping is merely part of a scam.... That would explain a lot though...

No, what I see is people being expected to pay 100 CHF per year (initially) for a worthless scrap of paper. It doesn't actually certify anything of merit.

I ask again, if a cyclist you are sure is doping (and you've posted and tweeted about how he's doping) got one of these certificates, would you then consider him to be clean?

Just because something is an anti-doping idea, it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

 

[mrhender]

No, what I see is people being expected to pay 100 CHF per year (initially) for a worthless scrap of paper. It doesn't actually certify anything of merit.

That is assuming this will never be adopted as a credible indicator...
If the powers to be would find some balls and ingenuity they would adopt and perfect this idea in cooperation with CP so that "testing" would be done as independently as possible.. Furthermore I don't see this as clean/dirty -but as a treshold of those teams interested in really backing their claims pressuring others to release(yes results should in time be released) their data and submit to the tests..
Every effort like this is at a futile stage.. To base you conclusions (vote yes -or no) is in my opinion too early...
If you refuse to accept or discuss any ideas, only to close them down at the futile stage it is pointless to discuss anti-doping at all.. That is if you are interested in a new development of course..

I ask again, if a cyclist you are sure is doping (and you've posted and tweeted about how he's doping) got one of these certificates, would you then consider him to be clean

I will never consider anyone clean because that can never be proved...
But I would use it as a factor in my personal perception.. And if only the "looser" teams of the pro-tour sign up for this I will possibly conclude that the dominating part of the pelton are still doping to the max...

 

[Parker]

That is assuming this will never be adopted as a credible indicator...

Given that the lie detector tests it relies on are not credible that's a pretty safe assumption. They belong in the movies and the Jeremy Kyle show, not reality.

I will never consider anyone clean because that can never be proved...
But I would use it as a factor in my personal perception..

Correct. Cleaniness can't be proved. So, the certificate - like I said - is meaningless. It has no clout, credibility or authority. It wouldn't convince anyone of anything. They're selling pieces of A4 paper for 100 CHF.

You can believe it's some new dawn if you wish, but you're the kind of mark they're hoping to rope in.

Imagine this conversation:
Athlete: "I'm clean"
Observer: "How do I know that"
A: "I have a certificate"
O: "From whom"
A: "A lawyer in Australia"
O: "And how did you show you were clean"
A: "I did an online test and sent him 100 bucks"
O: "You're a chump. They saw you coming"
A: "No I'm not"
O: "Do you have a certificate to prove it? Cos I can get you one for 50 bucks"
A: "Deal!"

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Is this the same parker who says doping can't be proven either?