CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

[Jacques (7 ch)]

Got to say that this QC is really making the best of this for herself. Cracking profile raise. Respect.

Still don’t quite see why BC didn’t just bung Freeman enough to go quietly rather than try to being the house down, though. I know the target is Sutton and only Sutton but the amount of muck being thrown around, day after day, is quite something.

Where does BC end up after this, Sam?

 

[samhocking]

Pretty sure O'Rourke raised her profile far more as QC for Dr Al-Zayyat in Baby P GMC case personally as that went to High Court afterall and was a far bigger story than Sutton & Freeman. This is cycling, it's not that important.

As for BC, they're claimaints alongside GMC. It would be extremely stupid of them to attempt to pay off Freeman lol!

For Ineos & Brailsford, there's no riders involved either and Sutton is already sacked anyway and Freeman long gone over Jiffybag story which is bubbling under and about to explode again if this goes to High Court with 35A etc. Today O'Rourke says she will use Sutton signature on Team Sky's Zero Tolerance policy as evidence he lied he was never involved in doping alongside the witnesses evidence claiming he was/is a doper. Perhaps the most damaging on Brailsford, is that other ex-riders admitted their doping and were asked to leave and did so. Sutton didn't, so that could be seen as a failure by Brailsford, but as he said, he can't force staff to admit they doped and if the authorities have no evidence, what's he supposed to do.
Perhaps todays missed nugget is O'Rourke says Sutton has been intimidating Freeman throughout the tribunal via text messages, so Sutton is simply digging his own grave now and GMC no doubt knocking their head against the wall!

 

[Parker]

Perhaps the most damaging on Brailsford, is that other ex-riders admitted their doping and were asked to leave and did so. Sutton didn't, so that could be seen as a failure by Brailsford, but as he said, he can't force staff to admit they doped and if the authorities have no evidence, what's he supposed to do.

Although Sutton effectively left Sky at the same time as those other staff members and sent back to BC. From head coach to a'consultancy role' and never seen around the team again

 

[samhocking]

No, that's not what happened. Brailsford's Team Sky Zero Tolerance Policy was signed by all 80 staff and riders in November 2012. Brailsford didn't vacate the BC position until 2014 and Sutton moved into it, so 2 years later.

Ironically, it was the Deloitte report etc and allegations of a conflict of interest that meant Brailsford vacated BC, yet several have said it was this happening that sent Sutton into panic mode and things began to fall apart as it was Brailsford that kept Sutton on a leash. No Brailsford no leash and by 2016 after just 2 years Varnish happens and everything we've heard about how he ran the BC ship without Brailsford there anymore leaves him sacked and contracting for China and Varnish! 2 months after Sutton is sacked - Jiffygate happens.

 

[Breezy1985]

I don't think this will cause the case to collapse, but McDonalds didn't open in Scotland until 1987, so probably a Wimpy. I am available to give evidence if required.

Maybe it was pizza express

Seriously though what's the point of adding the bit about the current BC employee to the coke/piss story is it just to add more layers of bull

 

[Parker]

No, that's not what happened. Brailsford's Team Sky Zero Tolerance Policy was signed by all 80 staff and riders in November 2012. Brailsford didn't vacate the BC position until 2014 and Sutton moved into it, so 2 years later.

January 2013, Sutton steps down as Head Coach. And given 'consultancy role' to save face, but is actually a non-job.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jan/18/team-sky-shane-sutton-head-coach

 

[42x16ss]

Pretty sure O'Rourke raised her profile far more as QC for Dr Al-Zayyat in Baby P GMC case personally as that went to High Court afterall and was a far bigger story than Sutton & Freeman. This is cycling, it's not that important.

As for BC, they're claimaints alongside GMC. It would be extremely stupid of them to attempt to pay off Freeman lol!

For Ineos & Brailsford, there's no riders involved either and Sutton is already sacked anyway and Freeman long gone over Jiffybag story which is bubbling under and about to explode again if this goes to High Court with 35A etc. Today O'Rourke says she will use Sutton signature on Team Sky's Zero Tolerance policy as evidence he lied he was never involved in doping alongside the witnesses evidence claiming he was/is a doper. Perhaps the most damaging on Brailsford, is that other ex-riders admitted their doping and were asked to leave and did so. Sutton didn't, so that could be seen as a failure by Brailsford, but as he said, he can't force staff to admit they doped and if the authorities have no evidence, what's he supposed to do.
Perhaps todays missed nugget is O'Rourke says Sutton has been intimidating Freeman throughout the tribunal via text messages, so Sutton is simply digging his own grave now and GMC no doubt knocking their head against the wall!

This seems to be the tactic. O'Rourke is far more intent on smearing Sutton than defending Freeman, which says a lot IMO. As much as I can't stand Shane Sutton, he's not the one in the wrong this time.

Interesting how the picture of Sutton has changed for some people between the Varnish cerfuffle and this - going from "blunt, straight shooting Australian with no tact just wanting the best for the UK track team" to "unstable, intimidating, alpha male bully". Couldn't see that coming...

 

[timberlad]

It isn't actually rocket science to work out who the current BC employee is and it is very relevant as he has a long and very successful relationship with Sutton. If anyone knows where the bodies are buried in Sutton's past it is probably him. Plus if you check Sutton's team mates from the late 80's & 90's it's like a who's who of British Cycling glitterati. I cannot conceive that if suspicions about Sutton were known by the general cycling public at that time, that the authorities didn't know.

This denial of the rumours reminds me so much of the Jimmy Savile cover up where all of the establishment knew about him but have denied it and got away with it. If my 16 year-old brother knew about Savile in 1968 and I met people who told me about him in 1979 you know the establishment knew and turned a blind eye.

My fear is this is what is happening with the Sutton accusations; many suspected, a number knew, but it suits the establishment to be in denial to protect the stance they have chosen to take against Freeman.

If it is the BC Coach/Employee I believe it is he is a man revered within the sport.

 

[Parker]

My fear is this is what is happening with the Sutton accusations; many suspected, a number knew, but it suits the establishment to be in denial to protect the stance they have chosen to take against Freeman.

No. What is happening is many suspect the rumours and most will believe. But apart from the most fanatical doping fans, no-one cares that someone may have taken a few pills 35 years ago. It's of no relevance to the present or even the recent past. Particularly in view of the subsequent history of cycling. Every team or federation employs a worse doper than him.

Let's remember that no-one in the 80s took doping seriously. The punishment for a positive test was usually relegation to last on the stage. In 1988 Tour Theunisse tested positive for testoterone and only got a ten minute penalty - he stayed in the race.

 

[timberlad]

No. What is happening is many suspect the rumours and most will believe. But apart from the most fanatical doping fans, no-one cares that someone may have taken a few pills 35 years ago. It's of no relevance to the present or even the recent past. Particularly in view of the subsequent history of cycling. Every team or federation employs a worse doper than him.

Let's remember that no-one in the 80s took doping seriously. The punishment for a positive test was usually relegation to last on the stage. In 1988 Tour Theunisse tested positive for testoterone and only got a ten minute penalty - he stayed in the race.

This isn't about his doping; it is about his integrity and honesty, both of which are highly questionable.

 

[Parker]

This isn't about his doping; it is about his integrity and honesty, both of which are highly questionable.

And I don't see that what someone may or may not have done over 30 years ago has any bearing on their integrity and honesty now.

 

[timberlad]

And I don't see that what someone may or may not have done over 30 years ago has any bearing on their integrity and honesty now.

Then you're not taking account of how people are and you haven't being paying attention to the litany of complaints about Sutton's attitude and behaviour. A person's personality is generally set between the ages of 25-30; if you were an arsehole in your 30's it is highly likely you will be an arsehole the rest of your life.

 

[Parker]

Then you're not taking account of how people are and you haven't being paying attention to the litany of complaints about Sutton's attitude and behaviour. A person's personality is generally set between the ages of 25-30; if you were an arsehole in your 30's it is highly likely you will be an arsehole the rest of your life.

People aren't all the same. Far from it. And most people in middle age will cringe at the memory of certain aspects of themselves in their 20s.
If there are a litany of complaints (and there are) then focus on them. If you need to go on historical digs for material it suggests desperation.
And I'm sure many will want the other BC coach outed and sacked for those events. Because anyone who took some pills in the 80s is beyond change (apart from our Lord and Saviour St Paul Kimmage of course. He doped to save souls of lesser men. Bless his magnificence)

 

[42x16ss]

Ex

This seems to be the tactic. O'Rourke is far more intent on smearing Sutton than defending Freeman, which says a lot IMO. As much as I can't stand Shane Sutton, he's not the one in the wrong this time.

Interesting how the picture of Sutton has changed for some people between the Varnish cerfuffle and this - going from "blunt, straight shooting Australian with no tact just wanting the best for the UK track team" to "unstable, intimidating, alpha male bully". Couldn't see that coming...

Exhibit 1: Timberlad

 

[timberlad]

Ex

Exhibit 1: Timberlad

That'll be because I'm just some armchair mug who believes what I'm told without question. I couldn't possibly have a mind of my own.

 

[samhocking]

January 2013, Sutton steps down as Head Coach. And given 'consultancy role' to save face, but is actually a non-job.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jan/18/team-sky-shane-sutton-head-coach

Yes, and Brailsford vacates BC position in 2014 and Sutton is then sideways promoted.

Wiggins was back to Track targets for 2014 off Roubaix. I think Sutton & his sideways move at BC to fill Brailsfords boots was as much about Wiggins returning to Manchester for Rio as the Zero Tolerance Policy ousting Sutton from Sky, but we'll probably never know exactly, maybe both obviously.

 

[Parker]

Yes, and Brailsford vacates BC position in 2014 and Sutton is then sideways promoted.

Wiggins was back to Track targets for 2014 off Roubaix. I think Sutton & his sideways move at BC to fill Brailsfords boots was as much about Wiggins returning to Manchester for Rio as the Zero Tolerance Policy ousting Sutton from Sky, but we'll probably never know exactly, maybe both obviously.

Yes, there was certainly that too. Both Sutton and Yates were firmly Wiggins men rather than Froome men, so it made sense to have a shuffle regardless of what both may have done in the 80s

 

[fmk_RoI]

O'Rourke loses another battle - fails in her half-time submission to get remaining contested charges thrown out:

After two days of deliberation, tribunal chair Neil Dalton said the case must continue and the defence's half-time application had been rejected.

Nothing new 'til Monday, Freeman seeing his shrink today.

Edit: may be action today after all:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205461942468595713

View: https://twitter.com/alistairmagowan/status/1205461942468595713

 

[fmk_RoI]

Added detail from the report above:

The panel said there were a number of factors it considered when deciding to reject the defence's application to have the four remaining charges thrown out.

It said that based on Sutton's evidence, which the defence tried to throw out, and analysis from endocrinologist Dr Quinton, it was capable of establishing that the testosterone was "not clinically indicated" for Sutton.

It also considered charges that Dr Freeman had admitted including ordering the testosterone even when it was a banned substance under the World Anti-Doping Agency code, lying to two colleagues - former British Cycling head of medicine Dr Steve Peters and former physio Phil Burt - about the delivery and then trying to cover it up.

There was also reference to Dr Freeman lying "a further time" to a UK Anti-Doping investigation.

Despite O'Rourke saying there was not a "scintilla of evidence" to prove that Freeman ordered the Testogel knowing or believing it was to enhance and athlete's performance, the panel said "a reasonable jury could, on one possible view of the evidence, be entitled" to draw that conclusion.

 

[samhocking]

The panel did good. Now we get the full story at last!

 

[Jacques (7 ch)]

So Freeman ordered test to be delivered to the velodrome, home of BC and Sky.
The test was not for ED ...
Blurred lines between Sky and BC. People moving between.
Poor record keeping.
False/ fake attempt to cover up the delivery/ return the test.

So - which athletes hoovered up the test? Or was it all for SDB and his Gran Fondo ambition, along with his kenacort?

 

[42x16ss]

Wigans was riding like a beast in 2011 until he crashed out of the TDF, EBH was winning bunch sprints, intermediate stages and contesting TTs at the TDF, while Flecha and Hayman finished top 10 at Roubaix.

Pretty obvious what it was used for even before the Vuelta.

 

[Parker]

Wigans was riding like a beast in 2011 until he crashed out of the TDF, EBH was winning bunch sprints, intermediate stages and contesting TTs at the TDF, while Flecha and Hayman finished top 10 at Roubaix.

Pretty obvious what it was used for even before the Vuelta.

Wiggins had previously finished 4th at the Tour.
EBH won one bunch sprint at the Tour where he beat Matt Goss. He was 11th in the only TT - 4 seconds ahead of Voeckler. He was ranked 6th in the World (CQRanking) in his last season at HTC.
Flecha had previously had finished the last seven editions of Paris-Roubaix in the top 13, including three podiums
Pretty obvious that riders continued being the same as they'd been before.

 

[42x16ss]

Wiggins had previously finished 4th at the Tour.
EBH won one bunch sprint at the Tour where he beat Matt Goss. He was 11th in the only TT - 4 seconds ahead of Voeckler. He was ranked 6th in the World (CQRanking) in his last season at HTC.
Flecha had previously had finished the last seven editions of Paris-Roubaix in the top 13, including three podiums
Pretty obvious that riders continued being the same as they'd been before.

Wigans won the Dauphine easily and podiumed Paris Nice in 2011. He had a relatively terrible TDF in 2010, as for the 2009 TDF it was his first time finishing in the top 80 at any GT (second time in the top 100 at a GT) and cycling fans thought it was hilarious at the time. Don't believe me? The race threads still exist.

EBH beat Hushovd and Goss for his first stage win, but you leave out that Goss was sprinting because Cav was dropped and Hushovd was also in standard form, winning two stages himself. EBH's second stage win was a monster ride on the stage to Pinerolo ahead of the likes of Mollema, Casar and Chavenel, winning solo by 40" on a stage that included Sestriere. As for the TT, a mechanical in the last few kms cost him a top 5 finish.

Sky had done little in the classics in 2011 until P-R, where 5 of the top 7 (including the winner) came from the early break, apart from Chris Sutton (cool surname BTW) winning K-B-K, which is a glaring standout in his palmares and Flecha coming second in G-W.

 

[Parker]

EBH beat Hushovd and Goss for his first stage win, but you leave out that Goss was sprinting because Cav was dropped and Hushovd was also in standard form, winning two stages himself. EBH's second stage win was a monster ride on the stage to Pinerolo ahead of the likes of Mollema, Casar and Chavenel, winning solo by 40" on a stage that included Sestriere. As for the TT, a mechanical in the last few kms cost him a top 5 finish.

Sky had done little in the classics in 2011 until P-R, where 5 of the top 7 (including the winner) came from the early break, apart from Chris Sutton (cool surname BTW) winning K-B-K, which is a glaring standout in his palmares and Flecha coming second in G-W.

So your argument that Sky were suddenly on something is the team were rubbish apart from the riders who had previously been good. who were still good.

Of course even then you're wrong. Flecha & Thomas had been 10th &11th in De Ronde the week before (not an amazing leap to 9th & 10th). Thomas was second at Dwars, Flecha second at Het Nieuwsblad

In essence you see a team doing OK but not great in the classics (same as almost every year with Sky) as "pretty obvious" evidence of doping . And then you wonder why people think you are some sort of tin foil hatter.